Identification Help for a Artillery projectile

crcnance · February 27, 2017, 03:53 PM

I've got pictures of a Artillery round I need help identifying. the only stamps I can find are AO on the side of the round.

2ndsojourn · February 27, 2017, 04:58 PM

What are the dimensions? The standard Howitzer was 155mm but there was a lighter 105mm used in WW2.

crcnance · February 27, 2017, 07:34 PM

As best I remember 10 1/2" around measured with a flex tape and about 12" long. I'll take a caliper in tomorrow and measure in mm.

SHR970 · February 27, 2017, 08:14 PM

Do you know where it was originally recovered from? That might help narrow it down some.

One thing of note: Being it's 120mm class, it is possible that it is a naval round. The British had several variants of the 4.7" / 40 Elswick gun which were also used by the Japanese, Italians, and even the US in limited quantities and spanned quite a few years of use..

Ed: measure carefully as there is one possibility that I found that looks similar to that shell...it is 122 mm.

rickyrick · February 27, 2017, 09:29 PM

Reposting the pic so others can see.

DaleA · February 28, 2017, 01:27 AM

Well 10.5 inches around, or circumference divided by Pi 3.14 equals 3.34 inches.

10.5 inches/3.14=3.34 inches in diameter.
25.4mm per inch so 3.34 inches*25.4 mm/inch or about 85 mm.

crcnance · February 28, 2017, 07:07 AM

No clue as to where it came from other than it was bought at a auction. I've got a good set of calipers that I'll use this morning to get more exact measurements and post. Thanks for all of the replies. In the pictures the back side our botail has a threaded recess which leads me to believe it had a rear fuse of some sort the double set of rifle lands are also something I haven't seen which makes me think it's ww2 era and no earlier. As I mentioned before the only stamps visible are AO. They are inline of each other and I'll try to get a good picture of them also.

crcnance · February 28, 2017, 08:12 AM

Okay diameter is definitely 85mm with a length of 276.225mm or 10 7/8".

olddav · February 28, 2017, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Well 10.5 inches around, or circumference divided by Pi 3.14 equals 3.34 inches.

10.5 inches/3.14=3.34 inches in diameter.
25.4mm per inch so 3.34 inches*25.4 mm/inch or about 85 mm.

I guess I should have double check my math!

DaleA · February 28, 2017, 09:11 AM

Well as you could see I was so nervous about making a mistake I didn't post the info without 'showing my work' and after posting it went back and checked it again.

Armed_Chicagoan · February 28, 2017, 10:45 AM

Does the rifling on the shell indicate it was meant for a smooth bore gun? Like a giant rifled slug?

crcnance · February 28, 2017, 10:48 AM

Picture of AO stamps and location.

**44 AMP** · February 28, 2017, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Does the rifling on the shell indicate it was meant for a smooth bore gun? Like a giant rifled slug?

NO. Not in this case. The "rifling" on a rifled slug is to allow the slug to compress and pass through any choke.

The artillery projectile here has "driving bands" to take the rifling and spin the projectile, while the rest of it is smaller than full bore diameter, to reduce pressure and give higher velocity.

there are a number of guns in the approximately 5" range, both land and naval artillery. I note that there doesn't seem to be a nose fuse. This could indicate the projectile was AP (shot), or that it was a training/practice round.

Right now, there isn't enough info to make anything more than a wild guess.

SHR970 · February 28, 2017, 05:46 PM

Russian 85mm AP shell

2nd from right

3rd from top

This will give you a starting place for more research.

Edit to add: See post 3 at this link for dimensions of the projectile. Linkaruskie

Post 13 for pic of loaded round.

rickyrick · February 28, 2017, 06:19 PM

Based on the new information, the description seems to lean as a projectile intended for direct fire.

Jim Watson · February 28, 2017, 06:56 PM

If an 85mm Rusky as the pictures indicate, it is AP with a small explosive charge.

Look at the bottom and see if there is a cavity or a plug or a (shudder) fuze.
The bands are engraved which means it has been fired but did not explode. Either practice without charge or a dud. For now.

rickyrick · February 28, 2017, 07:16 PM

One of the first pictures from the OP show an empty cavity, I was worried about being unexploded but the charge hole is empty.

Jim Watson · February 28, 2017, 08:40 PM

Phew.
I could not get that first set of pictures to come up and had not seen the open base cavity.

Kevin Rohrer · March 1, 2017, 06:12 PM

Definitely an AP round.

**44 AMP** · March 2, 2017, 01:36 AM

The 85mm bore size was used in WWII Soviet artillery, tank guns and AA guns. There was probably a naval gun in that bore size as well, but that's not an area I am very familiar with.

Being a "Standard" Soviet bore size, the projectile in question could have come from ANY nation that used Soviet designs, and calibers. Which includes, directly all nations of the former Warsaw Pact, and all nations supplied by Communist China or the Soviet Union.

And it could date from slightly before WWII or any time since.

Concur on solid (AP) shot with a bursting charge cavity.

That shell could literally have been recovered anywhere east of western Europe, or anywhere in Africa or Asia.

that is IF it's a Soviet 85mm

Where did you measure the diameter??

On the driving bands? or shell body?

if on the shell body, measure on the driving bands and let us know what you get. 88mm?? 90mm??

Sometimes, like with small arms ammo, the actual diameter of the projectile is different from the name of the caliber.

Just as there are .30 caliber rifles all firing the same slug named .303Brit, 7.62x54R Russian and 7.7mm Jap, there are artillery bore sizes all firing the same actual size shells with different names. There were WWII 75mm, 76mm, and 77mm guns, US and British, all firing the same projectiles from different tanks and towed guns. Different cases, but the same projectiles.

It could be a Russian 85mm, but might not be...

ronl · March 2, 2017, 11:30 AM

My guess is that it is a 90mm shell. They were used on the 90mm AA guns and in the Pershing and M48 Patton series of tanks until upgraded to the 105. It appears to be a solid practice round. It was a dug item which explains the rusted condition of the shell itself, The driving band is interesting in that it has slots cut in it. Most were solid. I used to have many examples of shells when I had my WW2 collection. I had examples of 20mm,37mm, 57mm, 75mm, 105mm, and even a 155. The 90 mm shell was used late in WW2, and saw little action. I still have a couple of WW2 dated service manuals concerning the 90mm AA gun that I will look at to see if it will identify the shell you have.

SHR970 · March 2, 2017, 08:49 PM

I've said what it is. Here is my last contribution on this subject.

Gunbroker with pics

I'm out of here.

rickyrick · March 2, 2017, 08:58 PM

It's worth at least 100 bucks

February 27, 2017, 07:34 PM	#3
crcnance Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2017 Posts: 5	As best I remember 10 1/2" around measured with a flex tape and about 12" long. I'll take a caliper in tomorrow and measure in mm. Last edited by crcnance; February 27, 2017 at 07:43 PM.

February 27, 2017, 08:14 PM	#4
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Do you know where it was originally recovered from? That might help narrow it down some. One thing of note: Being it's 120mm class, it is possible that it is a naval round. The British had several variants of the 4.7" / 40 Elswick gun which were also used by the Japanese, Italians, and even the US in limited quantities and spanned quite a few years of use.. Ed: measure carefully as there is one possibility that I found that looks similar to that shell...it is 122 mm. Last edited by SHR970; February 27, 2017 at 08:58 PM.

February 28, 2017, 10:48 AM	#12
crcnance Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2017 Posts: 5	Picture of AO Stamps Picture of AO stamps and location. Last edited by crcnance; February 28, 2017 at 11:11 AM. Reason: attaching photo

February 28, 2017, 05:46 PM	#14
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Russian 85mm AP shell 2nd from right 3rd from top This will give you a starting place for more research. Edit to add: See post 3 at this link for dimensions of the projectile. Linkaruskie Post 13 for pic of loaded round. Last edited by SHR970; February 28, 2017 at 07:54 PM.

March 1, 2017, 06:12 PM	#19
Kevin Rohrer Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2010 Location: Medina, Ohio Posts: 1,049	Definitely an AP round. __________________ Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, ARTCA, and American Legion. Caveat Emptor: Cavery Grips/AmericanGripz/Prestige Grips/Stealth Grips from Clayton, NC. He is a scammer

February 27, 2017, 04:58 PM	#2
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	What are the dimensions? The standard Howitzer was 155mm but there was a lighter 105mm used in WW2.

February 27, 2017, 09:29 PM	#5
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,237	Reposting the pic so others can see.

February 28, 2017, 01:27 AM	#6
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Well 10.5 inches around, or circumference divided by Pi 3.14 equals 3.34 inches. 10.5 inches/3.14=3.34 inches in diameter. 25.4mm per inch so 3.34 inches*25.4 mm/inch or about 85 mm.

February 28, 2017, 07:07 AM	#7
crcnance Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2017 Posts: 5	No clue as to where it came from other than it was bought at a auction. I've got a good set of calipers that I'll use this morning to get more exact measurements and post. Thanks for all of the replies. In the pictures the back side our botail has a threaded recess which leads me to believe it had a rear fuse of some sort the double set of rifle lands are also something I haven't seen which makes me think it's ww2 era and no earlier. As I mentioned before the only stamps visible are AO. They are inline of each other and I'll try to get a good picture of them also.

February 28, 2017, 08:12 AM	#8
crcnance Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2017 Posts: 5	Okay diameter is definitely 85mm with a length of 276.225mm or 10 7/8".

February 28, 2017, 09:11 AM	#10
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Well as you could see I was so nervous about making a mistake I didn't post the info without 'showing my work' and after posting it went back and checked it again.

February 28, 2017, 10:45 AM	#11
Armed_Chicagoan Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2013 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 776	Does the rifling on the shell indicate it was meant for a smooth bore gun? Like a giant rifled slug?

February 28, 2017, 06:19 PM	#15
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,237	Based on the new information, the description seems to lean as a projectile intended for direct fire.

February 28, 2017, 06:56 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	If an 85mm Rusky as the pictures indicate, it is AP with a small explosive charge. Look at the bottom and see if there is a cavity or a plug or a (shudder) fuze. The bands are engraved which means it has been fired but did not explode. Either practice without charge or a dud. For now.

February 28, 2017, 07:16 PM	#17
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,237	One of the first pictures from the OP show an empty cavity, I was worried about being unexploded but the charge hole is empty.

February 28, 2017, 08:40 PM	#18
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Phew. I could not get that first set of pictures to come up and had not seen the open base cavity.

March 2, 2017, 01:36 AM	#20
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	The 85mm bore size was used in WWII Soviet artillery, tank guns and AA guns. There was probably a naval gun in that bore size as well, but that's not an area I am very familiar with. Being a "Standard" Soviet bore size, the projectile in question could have come from ANY nation that used Soviet designs, and calibers. Which includes, directly all nations of the former Warsaw Pact, and all nations supplied by Communist China or the Soviet Union. And it could date from slightly before WWII or any time since. Concur on solid (AP) shot with a bursting charge cavity. That shell could literally have been recovered anywhere east of western Europe, or anywhere in Africa or Asia. that is IF it's a Soviet 85mm Where did you measure the diameter?? On the driving bands? or shell body? if on the shell body, measure on the driving bands and let us know what you get. 88mm?? 90mm?? Sometimes, like with small arms ammo, the actual diameter of the projectile is different from the name of the caliber. Just as there are .30 caliber rifles all firing the same slug named .303Brit, 7.62x54R Russian and 7.7mm Jap, there are artillery bore sizes all firing the same actual size shells with different names. There were WWII 75mm, 76mm, and 77mm guns, US and British, all firing the same projectiles from different tanks and towed guns. Different cases, but the same projectiles. It could be a Russian 85mm, but might not be... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 2, 2017, 11:30 AM	#21
ronl Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Posts: 1,100	My guess is that it is a 90mm shell. They were used on the 90mm AA guns and in the Pershing and M48 Patton series of tanks until upgraded to the 105. It appears to be a solid practice round. It was a dug item which explains the rusted condition of the shell itself, The driving band is interesting in that it has slots cut in it. Most were solid. I used to have many examples of shells when I had my WW2 collection. I had examples of 20mm,37mm, 57mm, 75mm, 105mm, and even a 155. The 90 mm shell was used late in WW2, and saw little action. I still have a couple of WW2 dated service manuals concerning the 90mm AA gun that I will look at to see if it will identify the shell you have.

March 2, 2017, 08:49 PM	#22
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	I've said what it is. Here is my last contribution on this subject. Gunbroker with pics I'm out of here.

March 2, 2017, 08:58 PM	#23
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,237	It's worth at least 100 bucks