New Star Firestar -- preemptively polish the chamber?

[Metric]

After winning an auction, I have a nearly-LNIB Star M43 Firestar (9mm) inbound. Scouring the internet for the last 20 years of posts in a search for well-known problems, it appears these are typically reliable, but occasionally one sees complaints of a very specific failure to extract, with the frustrated owners replacing the extractor / extractor spring / ejector, which almost never fixes the problem.

What one doesn't see are cases of the owner giving the chamber a light polish, which would seem to be a fairly obvious thing to do. I'm guessing that in the 1990's, some fraction of Star pistols simply had a rough chamber, leading to extraction problems (particularly when combined with a bit of powder/lead/brass residue from shooting -- sometimes owners complained that FTE problems appeared after some amount of shooting).

So, I'm thinking about the following action with my example. Test fire a few mags, just to establish baseline behavior. Then, regardless of the outcome, preemptively polish the chamber (lightly) with a felt dremel wheel and Flitz. I'm not talking about a full sequence with sandpaper -- just felt and Flitz.

My question is, has anyone out there ever seen a light chamber polish of this kind lead to problems in handgun calibers (I understand the issue becomes more complicated in rifles)? I occasionally see general advice not to do anything that isn't desperately needed, but I have also never seen a single complaint that a light chamber polish messed anything up in a handgun caliber. Has anyone out there seen it happen?

[Scorch]

The problem with the Star Firestar was not that it had problems extracting. The problem with the Firestar was the extractors breaking and none being available since Star went defunct in the early 1990s. There are a few smiths who will make you a good extractor, but it will cost you at least $150 for anyone to make one for you. They are not terribly complicated to make, just time consuming and since it's going to be a one-off part you will pay straight shop rate for it.

[hounddawg]

this guy sells spare parts

https://jackfirstinc.com/star-firest...m-40-815-84043

https://jackfirstinc.com/index.php?r...ath=390_459_15

[Metric]

Indeed, I'm grateful that Jack First is making replacement extractors (and other parts) at a reasonable price.

The problem of *breaking* extractors, though, is exacerbated by excess friction between the cartridge case and chamber wall, during extraction. The same thing that can cause a FTE problem.

Here's a video (not mine) of a firestar FTE happening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiseZgsqlb4

If one does various searches with terms like "firestar" "FTE" "extract," one finds plenty of descriptions of this exact mode of failure -- it is by far the most common issue I can find for the firestar. And one also finds an inability to fix the problem by adjusting or swapping out extractors.

This all seems consistent with a problem that is not the extractor -- it's excess friction in the chamber.

And it's not the only gun to have this kind of issue. In other pistols more recently produced in large numbers, it's well-known that FTE can be caused by a rough chamber, and there are many reports of successfully and easily fixing the problem with a light polish of the chamber. However, the firestar came too early to have the same kind of community support that modern pistols have.

I'm just checking to see if there is a major downside to a light chamber polish, that I'm not aware of. I can't find any reports of ruining a handgun barrel this way (felt + Flitz), but I figured this would be the place where people have seen it all.

[armoredman]

I had a Firestar back in the 80s - it was perfectly reliable, accurate and dependable. I wasn't a real single action guy, but I liked it. The one thing I remember most was, for it's size, it is HEAVY. I also remember I asked to have it "throated and polished" for HP ammo, at the time, no issues.

[Metric]

I guess that's one experience point for "unlikely to hurt anything."

I'm pretty sure that's going to be the end verdict. I'm just being extra cautious, because of all the horror stories of unsuspecting dremel-owners getting over-ambitious with an idea to "polish up" certain parts -- usually ones that involve critical angles and/or sharp edges.

[Scorch]

The problem of *breaking* extractors, though, is exacerbated by excess friction between the cartridge case and chamber wall,

Maybe, but the real issue was the wrong choice of metal for the extractors and improper heat treating. Stainless Firestar extractors would break easily, but the blued ones lasted longer. When we made extractors we used spring steel for the extractor and never had one break.

[Metric]

Interesting about the starvel (nickel plated) ones breaking more often. I wonder if hydrogen embrittelment was playing a role.

[44 AMP]

First point, the pistol is LNIB condition, so essentially unfired. Right??

So, there is no "baseline" and firing "a few magazines" won't establish a valid one. There are a lot of malfunctions that can and often do occur with brand new semi auto pistols that "fix themselves" within a few hundred rounds.

Shoot the gun, at least a couple hundred rounds. See if/what the malfunctions are and how often they happen. THEN, DO IT AGAIN some other day. See what/if there are any changes and then you can consider establishing a "baseline".

next point, there is no way to "unpolish" something. I have no idea if you are skilled enough to know what to do, and HOW MUCH, and not go too far. Everyone sounds like they know what they're doing on the Internet. Real world is a bit different.

Next point, reports of extractor failures can be operator induced. It may be a bad part, or maybe a poor choice of materials or heat treating, but it can also be a case of people not understanding the correct operation of the mechanism. Some guns are made so that dropping a round in the chamber and letting the slide slam shut on it doesn't hurt them. Others are made to feed from the magazine and while they should survive OCCASSIONAL misuse, doing it repeatedly will often break things.

Last point (for now ) is that all ammo is not equal. There is 9mm ammo with steel, brass and aluminum cases. And all brass is not identical as well. I see mention of people changing parts and not fixing the problem, does no one think of changing the ammo? or are they just not telling us they tried that?

Bottom line, about polishing NOW, you don't know if its "broke" and yet, you're going to "fix it"???? Shoot the gun, do a decent break in of the parts, and THEN decide if work is needed.

My advice is worth what you paid for it, but generally, that's a bargain! (or so I've trained myself to think, )

[HiBC]

"Inbound"
So,at the time of your posting,you have not even seen this gun.

You seem pretty bent on "polishing" the chamber.

Is this a case of "New Dremel Syndrome"????

I have written what I have to say about polishing chambers more than once.

I just do not feel like writing it again. If you use the search tool,and HiBC,you might be sleuth enough to find it.

If you actually have reason to touch up your chamber, I'd go to Gesswein or DME or Shop Tools...the Industrial suppliers. I'd get a syringe of Gesswein #9 Diamond polishing compound.Its green.
I could smear a thin film on some flat glass. Roll maybe 20 rounds of mild to moderate pressure loaded rounds over the diamond. What I want to do is embed the diamond grit in the brass case.Wipe nearly all of it off. I do not want them goopy with compound.

I now have a brass lap that will conform perfectly to the form of the chamber.It will cut what we moldmakers call "In the direction of draw. "

I'd Shoot the 20 rounds.

Talking about the texture I'd see under a microscope,I'd see little mountain peaks that will dig into the brass. If I cut those off and turn them into plateaus,my brass now has some bearing surface to run on..

Note I used the word "I" a lot. I told you what I would do. You? You are on your own. I'm not giving advice.


One more thing. You are asking because of what you do not know. When those who do know take the time to answer you,should you argue with them,based on what you know?

[Metric]

Thank you for the thoughts and opinions, gentlemen.

Shooting diamond-encrusted cartridges sounds particularly interesting and exotic (while also remaining very low-risk). I looked up Gesswein #9, which corresponds to a grit size around 9 microns. I've seen claims that Flitz has an average grit size in the 3-3.5 micron range. I do believe that I have some diamond polish compound in the 7 micron range, which I might use.

I will also fix up and shoot some cartridges coated with permanent marker, so that I can do some "before and after" comparisons.

Of course, the plan may change completely if the chamber turns out to be super-smooth out of the box.

[44 AMP]

Not sure if its a sign of the times, or just a hyperactive case of the "upgrade/improve" bug most of us have or get at some point, but lately I've been seeing a lot of folks determined to upgrade/FIX something they don't even have yet, have not used, tested and determined what, IF ANY work it needs.

Just because somebody on the Internet (including ME ) tells you that you "need" to do something doesn't mean you do. You MIGHT, you might not.

Again, beating this horse one more time, get the gun, SHOOT the gun, shoot it with different common commercial ammo, and shoot it a bunch to see what it does, and doesn't do, AFTER the factory "rough edges" are knocked off. (aka "break in period")

Do this before you do any work or have it done on the gun. Anything else is, I feel, "putting the cart before the horse".

Do what you feel is right, take my advice or ignore it, its up to you. I'm not saying you "need" to, I'm saying I think you "ought" to shoot it, FIRST.

[4V50 Gary]

Don't jump the gun. Test fire it with various ammunitions first to establish a baseline and see if there is something that needs fixing. Yours may be flawless.

[Rockrivr1]

I have a small collection of Stars and they are excellent guns. I've not had one FTE yet though. As others have said I'd wait and see how it performs before I'd polish the bore. You might be doing something that isn't even warranted. You're gun, your call though.

[Bill DeShivs]

While the Firestars are good guns, their ilk is what put Star out of business. Star went from making innovative 1911-type pistols to making clunky, heavy guns that lost popularity quickly.

All the "trendy" 1911 looking pocket pistols are almost direct copies of older Star designs.

[Metric]

So I got my hot little hands on this firestar. It's definitely not "like new" -- it's been fired a fair amount, based on the expected internal wear marks, brass on the feed ramp and breech, and powder residue. It would be more accurately described as "excellent," based on the finish. But that's okay -- I fully intend to shoot the thing substantially myself, and "break in period" need not enter any evaluation of reliability.

I have not fired it yet (other things are happening at the moment), but I've given it a detailed examination and cleaning. I will shoot and evaluate before attempting any chamber polish.

I did feel the texture of the chamber, and can feel the microscopic "rings," kind of like metal freshly turned on a lathe. I suspect this is the source of high chamber friction on some examples, and that a light polish can indeed help (when/if there is a problem).

I also got a "recoil calibration pack" of recoil springs from Wolff. The factory strength is 16lb, but the calibration pack comes with 18, 20, 22, and 24lb. I have read cases of FTE being cured (paradoxically) by a heavier recoil spring. The working theory is that a heavier spring generates a bit of extra time before the breech unlocks. This gives the brass cartridge case a little more time to contract away from the chamber wall before the extractor attempts to yank it out.

Overall, I really like the feel of the gun. Steel-frame concealed carry 9mm's are an extremely rare breed (how many can you think of?), but they tend to feel "just right" in my hand. The trigger has a fairly heavy take-up, and I may at some point shorten the trigger spring ($4 each from Jack First). Thinking about other things (e.g. trijicon night sights), but need to find enough time to test it out first.

Bill, as I understand it, Astra Star and Llama all went out of business within a short window of time, coinciding with a time of high economic pressure. And the firestar did win "handgun of the year" in Guns and Ammo for 1991. I'm not entirely convinced that sticking to older designs would have saved them.

But I agree that it is rather amazing to see how Star's little D-series have been ripped off by Colt, Sig, etc. It would be cool to see an evolved Firestar in 9mm as well, for people who like steel frames.

[hub1home]

Metric, it seems to me that you have already made up your mind to find something wrong with it. However, my advise is that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Shoot a couple 100 rounds or more through it. You just may like it as is.

[Metric]

I totally appreciate all of the advice to leave well enough alone. However, you can't possibly understand the sheer charge of POWER that courses through my body when I don a wife beater (with mustard stains), and with my fat littler fingers, pull a brand-new Dremel Tool out of the box, attach a course grinding stone, and rev it up to maximum RPM.

[HiBC]

I figured so.

A feature (chamber) has form,dimension,and surface finish.

In most cases,all of those are determined by the precision tool and cutter grinder that made the reamer.

If the reamer was to size,its unlikely you have an undersize chamber, Best case,its to size.

Variation in form will come at the expense of steel. What? If its belled,jugged,etc,its because steel is gone.

Surface finish,the mountain peaks are at the tight dimension of the chamber. The valleys add a + dimension to the chamber.

Hand holding a 20,000 rpm+ Dremel,you will remove some steel. You won't have much control over dimension and form.

If its grossly rough,to impair function...Bummer. You can figure you have nothing to lose, and Dremel on.

You can do as I suggested,lose maybe 30% of the peaks. Ignore the valleys. Diameter change of the chamber? .0005 or maybe ,001

Or,you can work blind inside a chamber,probably belling,or jugging,or reverse tapering the chamber. Whats the max steel you will remove? .001? .002?
Dremeling off a rough tool finish might easily take .002. You'll get a little extra with a hand held Dremel. Thats per side. Its twice that on the diameter.

If you think a .004 to .006 oversize chamber is an improvement,go for it!

Let us know how that works out.

[Bill DeShivs]

The Firestar "evolved" from the steel framed BM model, but it offers nothing that the BM doesn't. Frame rails on the outside of the slide are no big deal.

[Aguila Blanca]

If the chamber has actual rings in it, polishing is going to make shiny rings. If they are there and if they cause problems, rather than using a rotary tool to fluff and buff the rings, I'd rather take a length of wood dowel, wrap some crocus cloth around it, and gently run it in and out of the chamber to knock down the rings.

If they're really bad, I might start with fine-grade emery cloth, and then move on to crocus cloth.

[Metric]

Thank you everyone for all of the ideas and feedback.

Unfortunately, the problem is no longer theoretical. I tested today with three mags of geco 115gr fmj. First mag was fine. Second mag had a FTE on the 5th shot. At this point, I knew more were likely to come, so I switched from a 16lb recoil spring to a 22lb spring, just to see what would happen. Third mag encountered another FTE on the 3rd shot.

I guess the gun was purchased in the mid-1990's, the owner fired a few boxes of ammo and couldn't get it to work, and it then became ballast for his gun safe for the next 25 years, until now. Would explain the overall nice condition of the bluing.

Okay, so I intend this to be the first thread on the entire internet where a real fix for this issue is described. Or I go down in flames.

Here's what the FTE's looked like:

First one:


Second one:


The brass on these FTE cartridges have lines that definitely look like "rings."







Inside the chamber, I can definitely see areas in the forward half of the chamber that are more irregular than others, and which accumulated more residue from the first few mags.

When the fired cases are put back into the chamber, they do seem to have quite a lot of friction when they are fully forward. Not sure how unusual this is, though.

I like the idea of kind of "lapping" the chamber with an abrasive of some kind, before I use a rotary tool. I have some 1200+ grit sandpaper as well as some 3000 grit diamond paste. Thinking about using one or more of these forward and back, and then following up with a dremel and flitz.

Any further advice or observations are appreciated. BTW, the extractor seems to be working perfectly well -- tight but not too tight.

[Metric]

On closer inspection, I can see those rings very well in the chamber, with a very bright light. And yowsa, they're serious. I think most of them are grooves rather than mountains, but I could be mistaken.

In any case, I'll see what I can do to the friction coefficient in there.

[HiBC]

Well...Maybe.
Something about the double feed and partial extraction makes me wonder.

I'd think a true rough chamber fte would pull the extractor over the rim.

I'd think you would have the case full depth in the chamber.

Somethings happen quicker than you can see.

What if your extractor is doing a nice job of holding the cartridge brass on the bolt face.

I don't know what sort of ejector you have,but what if its failure to eject?

Maybe the brass is riding the slide and getting shoved back into the chamber.

Its not an uncommon thing.

Beware tunnel vision. A guy could sandpaper a chamber over an ejector.
I think I'd leave the chamber alone for now. Or just clean it with a bore brush and some BoreTec or Wipe-Out.Later,If I just could not sleep without doing something to the chamber,

If twas me. I'd figure embedding some of your 3000 grit diamond in the brass case would cut slow. Very low risk. 3000 grit should have a rock size of .0003 or .0004. It won't cut much clearance/oversize from the expanded brass. Sandpaper lacks form. It can wallow out geometry. The brass will stay true to your chamber,and just float the high spots off.

Shooting 10 or 20 or even 30 of those won;t hurt anything. Pay attention to progress.

But only make one change at a time,or you don't know what worked.

Myself,I'd study the ejector. You might need a firmer grip. Or zippier ammo. Or the softer spring.

Whats Geco?Some little lizard? Try some 124 gr white box or fiocchi or good SD ammo. A little more slide velocity might fix you right up.

I'd lose the 22lb spring. I don't know your gun,but a slide bashing its way forward with too much force hammers the gun.

The double feed happened with the 22 lb spring. It takes time for a mag spring to lift the ammo up to feed. A 22 lb spring does not give your mag time to feed.

Careful about fixing what ain't broke.

I'll grant,seeing rings in the chamber is discouraging. But your cartridge brass is not looking like Acme threads. Brass can span over some defects. Like a bridge over the valley. Don't even think about polishing out the valleys. You will make scrap. The valleys don't touch the brass. Its the peaks that may bite into the brass. Lap off 25 % of the defect (for example) and you lose the "barbs".
I'd seriously put your Dremel in a drawer and keep it away from your chamber.Using it,you will make it easier for the brass to deform rather than bridge.
You are already missing steel. Dremels do not put steel back on. they cut more steel out.
Good luck!

[Metric]

Interesting ejector hypothesis -- here are a couple counter-points.

1) I've seen references to other people replacing the ejector before, with no effect.

2) If the ejector were bumping the cases back into the chamber, I would expect to see many more jams in which the case didn't perfectly find the chamber again, getting hung up in an awkward position in the port. I didn't see any like this, and I can't find anyone else complaining about that kind of jam, either.

I will back off on the spring weight next time. But I might not go all the way back to 16lb, since there was apparently plenty of momentum to cycle the slide even at 22lb -- and this is even with the added chamber friction, and using 115gr range ammo!

Yeah, those rings inside the chamber are a bummer. There isn't much to lose, so I'll see what I can do. In handgun calibers, I haven't been able to find many people talking about how a chamber polish ruined a barrel. But maybe there are other reasons for that. If reliability goes straight to hell after my efforts, I'll mention it here.