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January 19, 2014, 11:59 AM | #26 |
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I am not an FFL dealer but I do not feel it is an infringement on anyone's constitutional rights to refuse to sell to someone who gives them a bad feeling. The "shady" purchaser is free to go to another dealer.
One dealer refusing to sell to an individual based on a gut feeling is i no way blacklisting that person so they can never own a gun. Is it possible this one dealers gut feeling could give a person on the edge of doing something stupid a little more time to think things through? Yes I belive it is entirely possible. It is not a dealers responsibility to go beyond the standard background check nor do I think most dealers are behavioral experts but I believe it is the dealers right to not do business with a person that makes them feel uncomfortable. As far as private sale, I would not sell to someone I felt was "shady" but as others have said I would not base that simply on their appearance.
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Jim "If a man does his best, what else is there?" - General George S. Patton Jr Last edited by OEF-Vet; January 19, 2014 at 12:57 PM. |
January 19, 2014, 12:35 PM | #27 | |
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January 19, 2014, 01:09 PM | #28 | |
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The cues that make me leery go deeper than simple appearance. Suspicion of chemical intoxication, suspicion of mental illness, or suggestions of vigilante behavior are certainly a reason to put the kabosh on a sale. But droopy pants? I know a few good folks who happen to dress that way, and they appreciate not being judged by arbitrary criteria.
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January 19, 2014, 01:17 PM | #29 |
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I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason I please.
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January 19, 2014, 02:22 PM | #30 |
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These people got kicked out of the store, not just refused a sale.
I asked afterwards and this was the reasoning: droopy drawers: "look like a thug, act like a thug, makes me think they're casing my store or up to shady business" wearing an Obama t shirt: "I won't support anyone who is trying to destroy my gun rights by doing business with them" smelling bad this guy didn't need an explanation, he smelled like urine and hadn't bathed in a LOOOONG time. He was looking for a cup of coffee and a handout. I wouldn't want that sort in my business either. not being able to speak English: "If the guy can't speak English, how can I know that he understands my safety instructions or how to answer the questions on the form correctly?" Everyone wants to be fair, but if some crazy looking guy wants to buy a gun from you and you sell it to him, how are you going to deal with your conscience if he does something crazy? Do you have the time and energy to talk to the police and ATF as part of their investigation? For FFLs, can you afford the lawyer to keep your license when the ATF shuts you down like they did the shop that sold the guns used in sandy hook? I've seen many shops with signs like these: [IMG]http://media.khou.com/images/356*198/Saggy_Pants_McDonalds_Noon.jpg[/IMG] Last edited by Knight cadet; January 19, 2014 at 02:37 PM. |
January 19, 2014, 02:43 PM | #31 | |
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Anyone can refuse to sell to any individual.
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January 19, 2014, 03:11 PM | #32 | |
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Kicking someone out of your store/refusing to serve them based on country of origin(not speaking English) or political affiliation(wearing an Obama shirt) is considered arbitrary discrimination under the Unruh Civil Rights Act and is unlawful. |
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January 19, 2014, 03:35 PM | #33 |
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Buck,
Unless I am mistaken, Unruh is California State Law (California Civil Code Sec. 51) and not enforceable in the 49 other states, D.C., or the territories. And there is no protection for political affiliation in it (Obama T-shirt). Edit to add: I am not an FFL but as I am in Cali., I would have the required signage to Refuse Service to Anyone properly posted. I can presume not speaking English is indicative of a status of someone that I would be legally prohibited to sell to unless they could provide the legal documentation that they are here legally. I then would simply not state a specific reason why I refuse to serve them. If they refuse to leave, then I would summon L.E. to explain it to them. They can deal with the language barrier. Last edited by SHR970; January 19, 2014 at 03:44 PM. |
January 19, 2014, 03:53 PM | #34 |
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SRH970, you are correct, Unruh is a California law. In other states, the The Federal Civil Rights Act protects the right of the consumer. Unruh does have provision for political discrimination as well as making it illegal to discriminate against individuals based on unconventional dress.
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January 19, 2014, 04:20 PM | #35 | |||
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January 19, 2014, 04:24 PM | #36 | |
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Let me get this straight...
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Really? Thats the strangest thing to you? Arent they all goofy looking?? Have you not watched some of the Youtube gun enthusiast videos out there? There's a huge percentage of gun people that creep me out... including some of my own family Seeing "shady looking" people of all ages at gun shows should surprise you not. |
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January 19, 2014, 04:29 PM | #37 | |
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January 19, 2014, 06:23 PM | #38 |
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I am curious how those who are advocating the sale based upon "rights" would feel if the "shady" individual came into your store of FTF wearing with pride his full "gang" colors or outlaw biker cut telling the world of his affiliation? Even if he does pass the NICS, you going to sell it to him.
Personally, I am with those who recognize his potential right to bear arms but my right to sell to who I want....FFL or not. Thoughts? |
January 19, 2014, 06:28 PM | #39 |
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Based on his appearance is not enough (usually) to deny someone the right to purchase a gun. Some in a group of gangbangers might give me pause but that is still being judgemental.
When I had my shop in Indiana there was a fellow in our small town who was known to be mentally retarded. Nice but really slow. One day he came in wanting to buy ammunition and a gun. I was really hincky about selling to him. I managed to get away and called one of his relatives who assured me he would be OK. I took her word and made the sale. |
January 19, 2014, 06:52 PM | #40 |
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I was selling a 12ga shotgun once a long time ago, had a guy call me about buying the gun, asked him if he was an Illinois resident, yea, so am I and I asked him if he had his FOID, which he said no, then it got interesting, went from him saying he was willing to pay more than I was asking too saying he could have a friend with a foid come with on the purchase. Told him sorry I couldn't sell it to him advised him to apply for a FOID and trying to purchase a firearm in Illinois without a FOID was illegal in the state. Ironically I did sell the gun to a guy from Iowa who only had to legally have ID, drivers license and made a bill of sale to him and a copy for my records. Illlinois is a pita with the new rules on private transfers. if I do sell any more guns im more likely to just transfer threw a ffl than a ftf transfer.
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January 19, 2014, 07:02 PM | #41 |
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Wow, I wonder how many folks in this thread would not sell a firearm to me.
I have long hair, facial hair(often a 2-3 days shadow) Since I work in industry, my hands and fingernails are often dirty (it's pretty hard to always scruff ink and grease stains off.) For the same reason, if I am returning or going to work, I am wearing stained jeans and a dirt jacket. I also wear leather and black T-shirts. Basing you judgments on appearances is simply ignorant. You may laugh at me because I am different, I laugh at you because you are all the same.
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January 19, 2014, 08:20 PM | #42 | |
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January 19, 2014, 08:25 PM | #43 | |
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January 19, 2014, 08:27 PM | #44 |
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looking kinda funny isn't a disqualifier if you have an in-state driver's license and ccw permit. that along with references since all of my FTF with people I never met were from gun forums....
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January 19, 2014, 09:36 PM | #45 |
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OMG! I've seen people at gun ranges and gun shows many times that fit that description. It probably fits half of you that frequent this board If you feel that uncomfortable about it don't sell to him. He can go some where else and purchase a burner. Legally of course. I chuckled when I read the initial post. Add 46 years to his age and you have my long time hunting buddy and firearms mentor
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January 19, 2014, 10:39 PM | #46 |
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What I know about anyone in the public arena is based on what they show me. I won't refuse to sell someone a gun based solely on their appearance but it will be considered. By the way I have had long hair, rough beard, and a basic sense of fashion most of my life, still if I get a strange vibe from someone I will not sell anything, work with or for, or associate with that person. But that's just me.
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January 19, 2014, 11:17 PM | #47 |
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In the example given, I would have to talk to this person at least a little. If he has his mental facilities, is not on some sort of substance affecting his judgement, and he has the money, I would sell, but I would ask for an ID and I would ask specifically if he is legally allowed to own a firearm and did not have any kind of felony record. This is beyond what I would normally do with a FTF transaction and only done because I am uncomfortable.
If I am really uncomfortable but want to sell anyway, I would just go to a FFL dealer and pay to transfer fee personally. |
January 19, 2014, 11:53 PM | #48 | |
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would you support a law that restricted gun rights based on dress, interest, or hobbies? What other measures should we ask Uncle Sam to put into law to deny gun sales? That really old man, could have Alzheimer, better not sell to him. I don't think people with glasses should be allowed to own a gun since their eye sight is bad. I think you should meet a minimum income requirement also. A poor person might be tempted to use his gun to rob Again, I respect everyone's right to do business with who ever you want to. I don't want to force business to do anything, but I think if you decide to become an FFL you need to respect the rights of consumers. If you think a FFL should refuse based on looks, then you think all FFLs should. That means no gun for this person. No different than making it a law, the results are the same. I am against more gun control laws. Period. |
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January 20, 2014, 12:01 AM | #49 |
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This conversation isn't about legislating anything other than the potentially FORCING someone to sell personal property to another individual that the seller does not want to do business with. To go from "would you say no to a buy request" to "would you support a law dictating who can or can't do business with" is so far apart that they don't even belong in the same thread.
When did it become a constitutional right to be able to buy anything from any person whether he wants to sell it to you or not? |
January 20, 2014, 02:03 AM | #50 |
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I try not to judge people based solely on their appearance. Some of the nicest people I've ever known looked a bit "sketchy" when I first met them and some of the most pitiful excuses for human beings I've ever had the misfortune of being acquainted with seemed quite respectable at first glance. That being said, in a private sale it would be a non-issue for me as it is my personal policy to only sell a gun on consignment through an FFL or to someone I know very, very well such as a family member or close friend. I simply do not trust my own judgment of character enough to pick the good and bad among strangers.
Now, if I were an FFL, I might refuse an otherwise legal sale, but not based on appearance alone unless said appearance was a blatant reference to something more sinister such as gang tattoos or clothing. A scruffy beard and black duster wouldn't stop me, as an FFL from selling a gun to someone who passed a NICS check, but racial slurs, signs of substance abuse, cognitive impairment, unsafe gun handling, or unusual aggressive behavior would stop a sale very quickly. |
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