A 40 vs 45 question.

[chris in va]

Sorta.

Is there any real difference between a 160gr .40 vs 160gr 45 doing 1100fps?

Reason I ask, I have some little stubby 160's for my 45acp, so theoretically I have a 40 S&W power factor?

[Nick_C_S]

I got 430 ft/lbs of muzzle energy for the 40 cal.

And 430 ft/lbs of muzzle energy for the 45.



Ballistically, there has to be a difference. I'm not going to profess to know enough to explain it. What I do know is that 160g is awfully light for a 45ACP - I would be concerned that the bullet itself would have such little drive band area (barrel contact) to expel the bullet with any consistency.

[Bezoar]

well the differences...

chamber pressure....

potential accuracy....

the .40 sw slug will have more length to diameter ratio. it should hug the barrel better and ideally give better accuracy. shape and size should let it buck wind better and be more consistent at ranges.

[mavracer]

Sectional density plays a big roll in terminal performance. Take a piece of paper and throw it then take the same piece and wad it up into a ball and throw it which one goes further.
now the difference between a 40 and a 45 slug won't have that dramatic of effect but the same forces are in effect.

[mnoirot64]

While the energy should be the same, the Taylor KO will be different based on the larger bullet diameter. If you're plink im, it doesn't matter as long as you don't have any FTE issues.

[jmr40]

All things being equal the 40 will give FAR, FAR better penetration. It is bullet LENGTH that is the major factor that determines penetration. Within the same caliber heavier is longer, but when comparing these 2 the 45 will be quite stubby and a poor performer.

[mnoirot64]

IMHO, as long as the 45 has enough juice to get to the vitals, I'm fine. I do not want over penetration. I want all of my bullets energy to be spent inside the bad guy.

[JD0x0]

The 40 has a higher sectional density and BC due to it being the same weight and smaller diameter. Meaning the .40 has more potential to penetrate deeper. BC wont really matter at pistol ranges, but SD does still count for something. .45 has .05'' bigger starting diameter, which means at least .05'' bigger holes in the target. As long as the .45 could inherently penetrate your target, the .40 doesn't have much of an advantage. If the .45 isn't exiting the target or is only sometimes exiting the target, the .40 may be a little better.

The .40 also has advantage with heavy for caliber bullets. A 200 grain .40 tends to move faster than a 230 grain .45 and the 200 grain bullet has a slight advantage on SD, again, over the .45

I want all of my bullets energy to be spent inside the bad guy.

I want that too with high velocity rifle rounds. But for pistol wounds i'd much rather have exit wounds in my target. 'Dumping' 500ft-lbs of energy from a pistol wont really do much, it wont create the same type of trauma, that you'd get from a .30-06 for example. The velocity just isn't there. The most ideal situation for a pistol wound would be a full pass through, with a nice large exit wound. Ideally the bullet would pass through, and a piece of cardboard would be able to stop the bullet after it passes through. This would essentially mean the bullet shed 99.5% of it's energy in the target, while still offering an exit wound to cause faster bleed out. I wouldn't want my bullet stopping in the target. That would mean that there's just that much less bleeding taking place. Exit wounds are always better IMO, and for just about any target, the best you could ask for, IMO, is 99.8% energy dumped into the target with a bullet that still exits the target, able to be stopped by paper or cardboard. There's no real way to make this happen 100% of the time, so it's my belief, that it's worth it to sacrifice a small percentage of that energy 'dump' for penetration, to ensure there are inherent exit wounds.

Just my $.02

[Nick_C_S]

JD0X0 covered it.

This is NOT what you want:

I do not want over penetration. I want all of my bullets energy to be spent inside the bad guy.

Because the only way the above-mentioned condition can be met (barring the bullet crashing into large bones) is if the bullet had very low energy to begin with - not enough energy to create an effective wound channel.

Unfortunately, if you're in a SD situation and you have to dispatch a bad guy, you're bullet is going to exit said bad guy. This is why there is basic firearm rule #3 (sometimes listed as #4): "Be certain of your target and what is behind it.

[chris in va]

Gotcha. Just something rattling around in my head as I was loading these stubby little 160's for my 45. They're actually wider than they are long.

[Nick_C_S]

Understood. I use to think the same thing: you want the bullet to stop inside the target. Unfortunately, all the physics involved - taken as a whole - simply doesn't allow for that luxury. Be certain of your target and what is behind it.

They're actually wider than they are long.

That is indeed an awkward aspect ratio. For me - even for target - I would steer away from 45ACP bullets lighter than 185g. If they're wider than long, that is an "unnatural" weight for that caliber.

But of course, if you've got 'em; might as well load 'em

[chris in va]

Yeah, they're just a weird mold I picked up for some light plinkers.

[Nick_C_S]

Yep, those are short-fatties.

[oldpapps]

I don't know if I want to get involved in this squabble.

Comparing a 40 with a 160 grain bullet to a 45 with the same weight of bullet is not an equable comparison in base matter.

The short fattie 45 is a light, quick play bullet.
The full blown 40 is a upper working load.

There is a reason the 45 is 200/225/230 grains for its working load.

I have, load, carry both. My 40 load is 155 grain JHPs at 1069 fps. I don't shoot games, so I don't give two hoots about some 'power factor'. My 45 load is 200 grain LSWC at 900 fps.

For work, the faster 40 at close range, should begin to open up and not slip on through. The 45 just slams.

Pistols are or can be divided into three categories:
Hunting
Play
Last ditch defense

There is some over lapping but not all that much.
I'm not going to go rabbit hunting with a 40 or 45 (or 44 for that matter). Just like my choice for defense would not be some monster revolver (quick follow up shots just are not going to happen).

I'm certain that I what I have said will be picked apart. You know what? I don't care, too many years in one form or another of law enforcement has set my mind, right or wrong. That's the way I see it.

Enjoy,

OSOK

[Nick_C_S]

No picking apart is going to happen from me oldpapps.

Lots of common sense in those words.

[WESHOOT2]

Just shootin'?
Both are the 'same'.

Shootin' things other than paper?
We'll need to talk

[totalloser]

Larger diameter causes more "crush" damage, higher velocity causes more "stretch" damage.

Hollow point ammunition is generally used to cause more crush damage, and full transfer of energy to the recipient. Soft tissue and musculature damage may look gruesome, but is NOWHERE near as deadly as organ damage, and is much easier to tend to. If this were not the case, hollow points would be a curiosity rather than a mainstay.

[mete]

I have not seen any significant difference in shooting live things between 40 and 45 . Bullet difference can be very significant ! For hunting and SD i use barnes bullets .

[mnoirot64]

Originally Posted by mete

I have not seen any significant difference in shooting live things between 40 and 45 . Bullet difference can be very significant ! For hunting and SD i use barnes bullets .

+1 for Barnes Bullets.

[Unclenick]

Chris,

The principle difference between the 160 grain .40 and .45 is 0.051 inches of diameter. Look at the .45 as a partially pre-expanded 40. It's approximately 25% difference in surface area, so it will require about 25% less average pressure for the .45 to reach the same muzzle velocity if the barrel lengths are the same. So you'll want a powder fast enough to burn well at the lower peak pressure in the .45.

As to accuracy, I've not had good luck with light bullets in the .45. I think its a bore alignment issue. I shot a lot of 185 grain semi-wadcutters in gallery loads years ago, and at 50 feet or even at 25 yards for the larger time/rapid bull scoring rings they were fine, but were unimpressive on the 50 yard slow fire target. The 200 grain versions were always more accurate and made a significant difference at 50 yards. I also had some really light 150 or 160 grain SWC's at one point, and they tended to shotgun for me. OK for steel plates at up to 10 yards but not for the black on a bullseye target, even at 25 yards. But try the shorties for yourself and see what you get.

[Fatelvis]

Comparing a 40 with a 160 grain bullet to a 45 with the same weight of bullet is not an equable comparison in base matter.

The short fattie 45 is a light, quick play bullet.
The full blown 40 is a upper working load.

There is a reason the 45 is 200/225/230 grains for its working load.

I agree with this. Because the 45 is of a larger caliber, you wouldn't want to use such a light bullet in that diameter. At least I wouldnt. To me 200-230 FMJ in 45 is hard to beat for all around use.

[WESHOOT2]

Folks, I think the OP was just askin' about competition power factor.

[Unclenick]

Yes, that's so if he's achieved his stated velocities already.