Urban Survival?

[threegun]

Mack59, Great post. It's funny how pride can make normally smart people talk of doing such crazy things like fighting gangs. I have the latest in firearms technology and tactics that would overwhelm most gangs in an armed confrontation. I shoot competitively to practice the quick engagement of multiple targets. If forced to get ugly, I can get very ugly. That said how can I defend against someone willing to assasinate me? How can I insure my families safety once the poop has hit the fan? Quick answer I can't.........so move.

Once my kids are grown and gone then I can stand my ground and die fighting the unwinable fight. Until then vote for politicians that are tough on criminals and not citizens. Move to the safer area ect.

[Chris1911]

Excellent response Threegun!
I also think alot of people let pride in their abilities, tactics, and weaponry fog the horizons of their realisitc thinking... You CANNOT DEFEAT a gang by yourself no matter how many guns you have...Manpower is manpower....

The same is true with defending yourself unarmed.....I train with people that could beat the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] out of two or more people if confronted on the street....But what about a gang of 5 gangbangers or more? As the opposing manpower increases the mob mentality increases, and your chances of coming out of it uninjured/alive decreases dramatically! Ask any one who's a trained fighter (boxer, blackbelt) will tell you they always try and avoid a fightttt, b/c eventually you're gonna get smacked in the teeth no matter how good you are... ESPECIALLY when it involves multiple Bad guys..

[carbiner]

Once I started seeing the local gang bangers spray paint a cops badge number on the sides of buildings, I moved well out of MPLS!

[FirearmFan]

I live here in Philly where on average one person a day is getting murdered. Heck, we had a woman get shot twice in the stomach a block from where I live, and I live on the good side of the tracks. I would have to agree with what some of the other posts say. Be aware of your surroundings, try to avoid the fight at all cost, and save up!

Even if you get into a confrontation with some gang banger and win he will have an 80 year old grandmother and 4 sisters out in front of the news camera crying about how he was wronged and was trying to get his act together. You see it on the news all the time.

Be safe and do your best to stay under the radar.

[GUNSMOKE45441]

What I am getting at, is when all the good guys leave, and the's no one left to rob or steal from are they going to stop, or come to where you live for the goodies.
When do the good guys (I think we still outnumber them) band together and take back our country.
I'm not Rambo nor do I want to be, but I will not be driven out of my home.

[CmGtSm]

I agree moving to safer location is the answer if you can possibly swing it -

Of course, when the town is 'used up', they'll eventually spread to the burbs and then to the surrounding countryside. A massed, coordinated, attack on a isolated farm or ranch will net them a nice little stash of goods and give them a base of operations. With trained military personnel directing them, you think they'll just stay in urban areas? They'll go where the pickings are best and an isolated farm or ranch is pretty inviting.

As I'm fond of saying, in my humble opinion, neighbors banning together to protect their community, and defend it, however necessary, before things get that bad, is the key. Take neighborhood watch about 10 steps further and keep your neighborhood however necessary. I'm not religous, but, as you receive - give it back 10 fold...you're message will get across.

When the Los Angeles cops were getting their asses kicked, and were outgunned, by the gangs in L.A., Darrel Gates went on televison and made a public statement saying that "If all the gangs members of Los Angeles understood is 'gang mentality', then the Los Angeles Police Department would become the biggest, baddest 'gang' the gang bangers had ever seen"...and they did -- cops started kicking ass, taking names and the department bought bigger and better weapons -- something the gangs understood. The gangs started fearing the cops more than other gangs. It helped take back the city...

Whatever you decide - best of luck.

[Mannlicher]

not a lot of room for discussion here at all. Either you get out, or you live with it. I don't have any sympathy.

[stallion114]

Cry me a river dennis, if you have a computer your not that poor. One of the great advantages of moving to a rural area is homes are cheap, so why dont you stop whining, and move. I am sure you can find a job somewhere, and its not like your giving up some high paying job now from what you said about not paying utilities.

[griz]

Shall we discuss the preceeding?

If you don't feel you can defend yourself against a threat, call 911. They will assist you as soon as they can.

Regarding the can't afford to move comments: If you HAD to move, say you ran over a gang member accidentally and they threatened to kill you. Could you scrape together the money to move under those circumstances? I'll bet you could then. And thus, you could now too.

[OneInTheChamber]

While you may stand a chance in a gun fight with a small group of gangbangers, or with some luck, tactics, and technology, a medium group (10 or so); you can't win every time. You can't defend against the car bomb planted on your car, or the molitof (sp?) cocktail that is thrown at your house at 4 a.m., or being shot in the back in line at the grocery store.

Best thing to do is to move; and in the mean time don't piss anyone off, don't advertise you have nice stuff, and don't look like a snitch (don't let anyone with a badge come near if you if not absolutely needed; I know that sounds weird, because the police are on our side; but if you are painted as a snitch you could be killed).

I wouldn't advertise that you have lots of guns as a way of deterring them; but it wouldn't hurt if you carried open on your own property. Criminals prefer unarmed victims.

[Ares45]

Their roots stem from military rebels in El Salvador.

FYI, M.S. is a completely American invention. It beginnings can be found in the streets of Los Angeles, a baseball diamond to be exact. As of 2003 M.S. had known organizations or affiliations in 36 states and 6 foreign countries. Yes, M.S. has a Salvadoran taste to it. Because the gang was founded by a small group immigrants for El Salvador. How do you account for 6 foreign countries then, you ask? Because the United States Immigration and Naturalization people have a nasty habit of deporting illegals who get themselves in trouble with the law. Unkown to us at the time we were also exporting the gang itself.

[poortrader]

Best of all, don't you just love those people who will post these types of questions and don't respond.

[carbiner]

I was waiting for someone to blame the USA for ms13.

[Garand Illusion]

The good people of Iraq (the ones who want to stop the bloodshed and get their country back) have the same problem. Every time they turn a blind eye to the insurgent/terrorists more bombs and guns go off. If they're found out as a snitch, their whole family is killed.

If you live in a neighborhood like that you've got to ride it out. Be cool, don't piss off the wrong people, and try to make things better when you get a chance.

One man alone is a nail to be pounded down. But if you can find other like minded individuals and start working together to clean things up and get the bad guys put away, that's when change begins.

Having a handgun is great against an unexpected attack by strangers. But it's not a good way to fix the ongoing problems of the neighborhood you live in.

[Capt. Charlie]

One man alone is a nail to be pounded down. But if you can find other like minded individuals and start working together to clean things up and get the bad guys put away, that's when change begins.

An absolutely outstanding statement! There truly is strength in numbers!

But.... one thing I would advise is maintaining a very low profile until the neighborhood is united, well armed, and has a game plan. Resistance before that's accomplished will make you a target, sure as water runs downhill.

[bdc]

I had to read the original posting twice before I understood it.

Most BGs are lazy. They rob their parents, the next door neighbor, the neighborhood grocery store.

Our gangs? Shoreline Crips and the V13 Gang. V13 lives within walking distance.

So what is the challenge by the poster? What is really to discuss? Why the challenge of dealing with 100 gang members?

Maybe it is GunKid again.

[LICCW]

I agree that in order to battle urban dcay and crime the good people must stand up for their neighborhoods "take back the streets" etc. But that is far easier said than done. Group dynamics is a tactical discussion in and of itself, as is its corollary mob dynamics. The problem for the good citizens is one of will. Do they (we) have the unified clarity of vision and dedication to action to make a difference. I am reminded of a situation from my youth. Myself and a small number of friends were having a few beers in an empty lot in a neighborhood near us. Unbeknownst to us, the area was having problems with vandalism. A large group of homeowners, their friends (I guess) and teenage boys approached us and told us they'd had enough of the problems and were going to make an example of us so that all the other "dirtbags" and "punks" would know to stay off their block. Lucky for us, they were only armed with bats, and the like. If someone had a gun that night there would most likely have been shooting. I do not know what possessed me, but I put myself between my friends and the mob and explained that while they would certainly beat us down, I would crack the jaw and knock the teeth out of the first guy who swung at me. You might win, but at least one or two of you are going to the hospital with me, I explained (rather vehemently). Funny thing, no one wnted to be the guy who got his jaw broken in the group. They were not Sopranos, gang-bangers, etc. If they were they would have just shot me and laughed. But to these homeowners, most of whom really would rather avoid fighting, the sight of a young, tattooed weightlifter was enough of a deterrent to make them pause. They just sort of said in unison--just get out of here. So we left. I was very lucky that night, all it would have taken was one pyscho tougher than me and maybe I'd be dead. The point is that a group must have the will to face down and go to the mats with their adversary, and many do not have the will.

[Mikeyboy]

As I'm fond of saying, in my humble opinion, neighbors banning together to protect their community, and defend it, however necessary, before things get that bad, is the key. Take neighborhood watch about 10 steps further and keep your neighborhood however necessary. I'm not religous, but, as you receive - give it back 10 fold...you're message will get across.

The Big part of your message is "before things get bad" The suburb I live in now is 50% people who fled bad urban areas and 50% people who lived in the area for generations when 20 years ago the area was nothing but farms and woods. The cops here are very "gung ho" and we have zero tolerence for an BS in our neighborhood. Criminals go to places were people don't care, they don't want to go to a neighborhood where everyone is looking out for their neighbors and will be quick to call 911 if they see something bad. If gangs try to set up shop in a neighborhood and nothing happens and noboy cares, they will continue to grow and get worse. Like weeds soon the will be too big and too many to root out.

[threegun]

Mikeyboy, A+

[625]

Dennis2 where do you live?

From another one of his posts in a different thread:

I live in a dangerous neighborhood in East St. Louis, Il.

Would you brave souls bet your hand gun against a gang hundreds strong and well armed, with your family, at a fixed address you live at?

I don't recollect that anyone has ever said that here. You seem angry for some reason. I think you should use this anger to energize your neighbors. Band together to protect your neighborhood if you can't move. As previously stated, safety in numbers and all that.

[TexiCali Slim]

Same stuff goes on in the burbs as the urban city, theyre just like dogs if you mind your own buisness and dont stare or show fear you have nothing to worry about.

[Edward429451]

Dude you need to move. Not having the money isn't an option, it's an excuse. I thought Columbus was getting bad back in the late 80's with the Blood's & Crips and didn't want to raise my kids there. You think I had the money making 6. bucks an hour? Depends on how bad you want out of it. Where there's a will, there's a way. I sold off all our treasure (crap) and made enough to get a cartop luggage carrier and just went. I rolled into C Springs in the middle of winter with 1/2 tank of gas, two toddlers & wife and 25 bucks cash. No place to land. First stop was at a pawn shop. Pawned the two handguns for enough to buy a motel kitchenette for a month and hit the streets looking for work. I was working 3 days later and we lived right through it.

I don't know what you're hoping to hear people say to you but it sounds like you know what really needs to be done and are resistant to it for whatever reason. You bet it's going to be the tough way but it'll also get you out. So it's a leap of faith. Good, it builds character. Maybe you think God's gonna let you & your family starve? Hah!

Think back poorman. You ever miss any meals? Thought not. The only people who miss meals & such are the drug addicts who make that poor choice.. Things have a way of working themselves out. Just do it.

Dwight...LOL! Good post.

[Garand Illusion]

Limitations of strength in numbers

It's a good post, LICCW, but again your looking at a tactical solution; people confronting a bad situation head on with force on force. A mob of homeowners trying to show bravado and beat down some punks is a vigilante mob; there's a time and place for that, but probably not to fight simple vandalism.

What I'm talking about is the "broken window" syndrome. If you have an abandoned building with no broken windows and cleaned up, it may stay that way forever. But once one window gets broken, if it stays broken, the building looks run down and suddenly more people are throwing rocks. And pretty soon all of the windows are broken. And then it makes the whole neighborhood look run down, and then people are breaking windows in other houses. As has been proven a million times in the real world, if you fight the little crimes you reduce the big crimes.

So you live in a bad neighborhood, and the cops don't care because when something does happen everyone around turns a blind eye and doesn't want to get involved.

Talking with your neighbors, you may discover there are other like minded individuals as yourself. So you start a program of neighborhood watching -- running video cameras, taking turns watching, and always calling the police for trouble. And then supporting the police en masse when they show up, so the BG's involved don't have a single complaintant to look at. Yeah -- gang bangers have no problem intimidating, beating or killing one person or family. But when a whole community stands against them and makes it clear that reprisals will bring more calls to the police and more convictions ... things change.

Back in the violence of the 80's there was a drive by shooting in a bad neighborhood in Denver that resulted in a little girl getting killed. Right afterwards the gang bangers drove around, making eye contact with everyone on the streets and throwing gang signs to let them know they'd better not talk to the cops.

But this was the last in a number of shootings, and for whatever reason this neighborhood had had enough. The police had locals lining up to give descriptions and the shooters were quickly in jail. The more locals that stepped forward, the more that found the courage to do so.

If one person had reported in, he or his family would be dead. Since they all reported the situation in, the gang decided to move the worst of their operations out.

On this site we like to think of the lone warrior -- the Charles Bronson -- dropping all the bad guys and cleaning up the neighborhood. But you only see that in the movies for a reason; it doesn't work in real life.

[LICCW]

GarandIllusion: Good post. Good points. I think that as firearms owners, many on the board are taking responsibility for their own protection. many of us CCW for business or just personal protection. But that's just it, we spend a lot of time training for that scenario in which we must defend ourselves or our family, but do we spend enough time discussing how to group together with neighbors or how to protect our neighborhoods, organize watch groups etc? Many post that the firearm is a last resort, so maybe more of our tactics and training should include community based measures and advice on all the things that should be done before we resort to using our pistols. I don't know, I'm just sort of thinking out loud. I feel prepared to defend my family or my person, but could I defend my block? My neighbors if need be? Or am I just another Charles Bronson wannabe, planning on going it alone?

[Garand Illusion]

Good points LICCW!

I'm afraid I, myself, am a Bronson wannabe. But that is because I am fortunate to live in a quiet cul de sac in a nice neighbhorhood. If things go somehow terribly bad, like a Katrina/New Orleans thing, I'll have to try and organize my neighbors in a hurry. But I will do that, and I would do it now if a gang moved in down the street.

Fortunately, I have enough firearms and ammo to arm several of my neighbors.

If I'm carrying in public, I'm not sure how far I would go to defend others. I don't mean to be heartless, but in a situation like the Seattle Mall shooting my first goal is going to be to get out of the line of fire and save myself.

And if I find a safe place I might just hunker down there and wait for it to end. Not that I don't want to save my fellow man, but I'm seriously afraid of not shooting well and getting killed myself, or getting killed by the police, or accidentally shooting an innocent.

Besides ... my experience with violence is it generally happens very quickly, is over very quickly, and it can be difficult to figure out exactly what's happening in the time you have.

Good luck! I hope you find yourself to be a community leader and neghborhood defender!