MUGGING and CC - Page 4

jesus5150 · January 6, 2009, 11:00 PM

I'm not saying i'm doing it the correct way, and i'm Definately not saying to Scream at your armed assailant, that's just what i did when confronted with an old fashioned fist exchange. As for being aware, i constantly catch myself distracted and unprepared when i'm out. Especially when i'm shopping because you can't possibly be aware of everything, and most of the time you're within 2 feet of someone else.

Just thought i'd put that out there before i got flogged for being too head strong (which i'm definately not lol) I was just trying to illustrate that if you puff up and ruffle your feathers more than the other person before the exchange of blows, you may not have to be there for it.

jesus5150 · January 6, 2009, 11:10 PM

And if all else fails, i whip out my trumpet and Lull them into a slumber... While they sleep i take their cell phones out and make long distance calls to rogue 3rd world nations.

BuckHammer · January 6, 2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

Your own definition proves my point. The mere presence of a gun is not "violence". It most certainly is IMPLIED violence which is why you must act in a manner that keeps it implied.

Alright, I was in a pretty bad mood yesterday, and have since calmed down. Based on your reply, it is my opinion that you have a narrow and simplistic view of the term violence. Yes, the presence of a gun is not violence, I agree. But when the gun is being directly used to threaten death or serious injury to you, it is not the mere presence of the gun, and it is violence, whether the gun is utilized as threatened or not. Same scenario with any weapon, not just a gun. Please reread my definition of violence, then cross-reference that with the definition of mugging. Even without a weapon, the use of force is used to make you surrender your possessions, and that is violence. Really read the definition. It even defines harsh language as violence. A nonviolent mugging would require the criminal to politely ask you to surrender your possessions without forcing or threatening you. Sounds like the Salvation Army collectors to me

. I mean really read the definition of violence, then look at the definition of mugging, think about them both, and then tell me that nonviolent muggings are possible. The definitions I cited are in post #27, which I tell you so that you and others can easily find them. I don't mean to dwell on this, but come on, I'm right and I know it. Moving on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

The best gunfight is one that didn't happen. Let's not go down the "He started the gunfight by pulling on me..." road. A gunfight doesn't start until someone pulls the trigger

A mugging at gunpoint constitutes a threat on your life. A mugging at gunpoint is justification for stopping the threat using potentially deadly force. Don't blame the victim.

Not saying this particular mugging should have been resisted (I mean, they're alive, right?), just saying that other hypothetical muggings start to get murky really fast.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 7, 2009, 10:58 AM

Three cheers for cognitive science and Kathy! Great little review article, Pax !!

pax · January 7, 2009, 11:19 AM

Glenn,

I thought you'd like that. It's amazing how the human brain works -- and how easily we're led astray by our own perceptions.

Check out this magic trick, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAnt...-under-matter/

It's a great video about a color changing card trick. Don't read the comments before viewing the video, of course!

(Discussed in more detail here: http://forgetomori.com/2007/skeptici...-under-matter/)

As fascinating as this stuff is, and as amusing as it can be, it really has huge implications for anyone interested in self-defense -- both in terms of personal awareness (are you as observant as you think you are?) and in terms of how we present our actions and beliefs to the authorities after a shooting event (did you really see everything you thought you saw?).

Anyway, all this is one reason I've kind of slowed down on posting in this type of thread. There are lots of people who're aware of what they're up against when it comes to observing the world around 'em (and bless 'em for it!). But sometimes it seems as if these knowledgeable voices are too often shouted down by people who like the Oracles of old, see all, know all, and tell a great deal more than that!

pax

Brian Pfleuger · January 7, 2009, 11:32 AM

Quote:

A mugging at gunpoint constitutes a threat on your life. A mugging at gunpoint is justification for stopping the threat using potentially deadly force. Don't blame the victim.

I agree completely but I don't see any blame directed at the victim. If I have a reasonable chance at disabling my assailant or mugger, I'll take it. Guns or fists or feet, whatever. That doesn't change the point I was trying to make which is two fold:

1)Many people on this forum have stated that a gun fight starts when someone threatens them with a gun. That simply is not true.

2) The best gunfight is one that doesn't happen. If I have a means of escape from a situation that I think has a higher probability of safety, I take it. Shooting is the LAST option not the first.

But this has gotten off track.... My initial point was the appropriate reaction to the mugging in the OP. Muggings in general are too varied to provide an easy answer. In the OP, with 4 guys pointing guns at you, it is SUICIDE to attempt to draw on them. It could also be a very bad situation if they searched you and found your gun. Hence, my original point. Those exact people, in that exact situation, were better off unarmed.

Eskimo · January 7, 2009, 02:29 PM

Why do people choose to put themselves in danger? If you live in a large city, that's exactly what youre doing. You CHOOSE to be mugged. You are also exposing your children to much more corruption than they would experience in a smaller town.

Of course, there are situations where it is impossible to move.. but 9 times out of 10, it's just a choice.

hogdogs · January 7, 2009, 02:38 PM

Eskimo, I also live very rural and moved here to escape an ever tightening noose of city growth and crime...
But to say a person chooses to be mugged is a stretch like saying I am committing suicide because the ambulance is 30 minutes away... Or that I choose to wreck trucks by living where deer stand in the road. I don't choose to wreck my truck I try to mitigate the risk by paying attention...
Brent

Tucker 1371 · January 7, 2009, 03:01 PM

Gotta agree with the folks calling for better situational awareness. You're not being paranoid your just prepared. Nobody should be able to get the drop on you like that especially if your in an area of town known with a bad reputation. I personally have a deep burning hatred for thieves, the idea that someone thinks they're entitled to my belongings just because they can take them enfuriates me. There's no way I could sit back and let that kind of crap happen.

Brian Pfleuger · January 7, 2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Why do people choose to put themselves in danger? If you live in a large city, that's exactly what youre doing.

I would agree with the general sentiment of that, I have said before that if I lived in an area where I actually thought I would need to be armed, I'd move. I'd still be armed, but I wouldn't live where I expected to need it.

Quote:

Or that I choose to wreck trucks by living where deer stand in the road.

That's a good point, but if hitting deer had a high probability of killing me, I'd move away from them too!

hogdogs · January 7, 2009, 03:13 PM

Peetza, You got yer choice... Thugs or Deer no real middle ground there...

Also... if all the potential victims left the city, the thugs would be my neighbor and I would be their potential victim and that is gonna end bad for us both! Momma is gonna be a real FEMALE DOG if she has to scrub that blood off the floor!
Brent

Brian Pfleuger · January 7, 2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Thugs or Deer

Hmmmm, let me think... Deer taste better, I'll go with deer.

onthejon55 · January 7, 2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

My initial point was the appropriate reaction to the mugging in the OP. Muggings in general are too varied to provide an easy answer. In the OP, with 4 guys pointing guns at you, it is SUICIDE to attempt to draw on them.

Funny you should use the OP as a reference and then mention 4 BGs with guns pointed at the victim because that wasnt mentioned anywhere. Oh and here is a perfect example of a way to kill someone threatening your life even if they have a gun pointed at your head so dnt tell me it cant be done.

http://www.wlky.com/video/16509601/index.html

dav · January 7, 2009, 07:57 PM

The OP did mention it in a later post, though, onthejon55.

Thanks for the link.

onthejon55 · January 7, 2009, 08:27 PM

sounds like the OP is making stuff up as he goes

BuckHammer · January 7, 2009, 08:35 PM

I looked back, and I didn't see where the OP mentioned 4 BGs. Here's where the number four came from:

Quote:

Originally Posted by George PT-111

I have talked to at least 4 people who were recently mugged near their appartments by one or multiple individuals.

(I took the liberty of making the number 4 bold)

He is talking about four people he talked to, not four assailants. He makes mention of "multiple individuals", when referring to the muggers, but never mentions a specific number. I have looked at all of his posts, and could not find him referencing 4 BGs. I tried to be thorough, but if I've missed a post, let me know.

EDIT: Alright, found the post, he says "one of his friends" was mugged by four BGs, but not every mugging.

Steve Tate · January 7, 2009, 08:53 PM

Well, I guess the question is, what is important to us.

Wife
Kids
Life

It seems to me here the underlying issue on this thread is pride. Pride has caused bad things to happen to us all.

I'm willing to have no pride if someone gets the jump on me with a gun. I'll risk handing over paper, plastic, diamonds, etc. versus going to meet certain death over whether or not I can "out skill" this thug. If it seems like the situation is not manageable to draw, I have no problem in turning over my fate to my Maker. He knows the outcome.

Brian Pfleuger · January 7, 2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Tate

Well, I guess the question is, what is important to us.

Wife
Kids
Life

It seems to me here the underlying issue on this thread is pride. Pride has caused bad things to happen to us all.

I'm willing to have no pride if someone gets the jump on me with a gun. I'll risk handing over paper, plastic, diamonds, etc. versus going to meet certain death over whether or not I can "out skill" this thug. If it seems like the situation is not manageable to draw, I have no problem in turning over my fate to my Maker. He knows the outcome.

Quite possibly the finest first post I've seen.

January 6, 2009, 11:00 PM	#76
jesus5150 Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Bismark Posts: 332	In addition I'm not saying i'm doing it the correct way, and i'm Definately not saying to Scream at your armed assailant, that's just what i did when confronted with an old fashioned fist exchange. As for being aware, i constantly catch myself distracted and unprepared when i'm out. Especially when i'm shopping because you can't possibly be aware of everything, and most of the time you're within 2 feet of someone else. Just thought i'd put that out there before i got flogged for being too head strong (which i'm definately not lol) I was just trying to illustrate that if you puff up and ruffle your feathers more than the other person before the exchange of blows, you may not have to be there for it.

January 7, 2009, 10:58 AM	#79
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Three cheers for cognitive science and Kathy! Great little review article, Pax !! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 7, 2009, 11:19 AM	#80
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Glenn, I thought you'd like that. It's amazing how the human brain works -- and how easily we're led astray by our own perceptions. Check out this magic trick, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAnt...-under-matter/ It's a great video about a color changing card trick. Don't read the comments before viewing the video, of course! (Discussed in more detail here: http://forgetomori.com/2007/skeptici...-under-matter/) As fascinating as this stuff is, and as amusing as it can be, it really has huge implications for anyone interested in self-defense -- both in terms of personal awareness (are you as observant as you think you are?) and in terms of how we present our actions and beliefs to the authorities after a shooting event (did you really see everything you thought you saw?). Anyway, all this is one reason I've kind of slowed down on posting in this type of thread. There are lots of people who're aware of what they're up against when it comes to observing the world around 'em (and bless 'em for it!). But sometimes it seems as if these knowledgeable voices are too often shouted down by people who like the Oracles of old, see all, know all, and tell a great deal more than that! pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

January 7, 2009, 03:01 PM	#84
Tucker 1371 Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: East TN Posts: 2,649	Gotta agree with the folks calling for better situational awareness. You're not being paranoid your just prepared. Nobody should be able to get the drop on you like that especially if your in an area of town known with a bad reputation. I personally have a deep burning hatred for thieves, the idea that someone thinks they're entitled to my belongings just because they can take them enfuriates me. There's no way I could sit back and let that kind of crap happen. __________________ Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe

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January 6, 2009, 11:10 PM	#77
jesus5150 Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Bismark Posts: 332	And if all else fails, i whip out my trumpet and Lull them into a slumber... While they sleep i take their cell phones out and make long distance calls to rogue 3rd world nations.

January 7, 2009, 02:29 PM	#82
Eskimo Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Posts: 173	Why do people choose to put themselves in danger? If you live in a large city, that's exactly what youre doing. You CHOOSE to be mugged. You are also exposing your children to much more corruption than they would experience in a smaller town. Of course, there are situations where it is impossible to move.. but 9 times out of 10, it's just a choice.

January 7, 2009, 02:38 PM	#83
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Eskimo, I also live very rural and moved here to escape an ever tightening noose of city growth and crime... But to say a person chooses to be mugged is a stretch like saying I am committing suicide because the ambulance is 30 minutes away... Or that I choose to wreck trucks by living where deer stand in the road. I don't choose to wreck my truck I try to mitigate the risk by paying attention... Brent

January 7, 2009, 03:13 PM	#86
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Peetza, You got yer choice... Thugs or Deer no real middle ground there... Also... if all the potential victims left the city, the thugs would be my neighbor and I would be their potential victim and that is gonna end bad for us both! Momma is gonna be a real FEMALE DOG if she has to scrub that blood off the floor! Brent

January 7, 2009, 07:57 PM	#89
dav Member Join Date: October 13, 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 87	The OP did mention it in a later post, though, onthejon55. Thanks for the link.

January 7, 2009, 08:27 PM	#90
onthejon55 Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 411	sounds like the OP is making stuff up as he goes

January 7, 2009, 08:53 PM	#92
Steve Tate Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Posts: 4	Well, I guess the question is, what is important to us. Wife Kids Life It seems to me here the underlying issue on this thread is pride. Pride has caused bad things to happen to us all. I'm willing to have no pride if someone gets the jump on me with a gun. I'll risk handing over paper, plastic, diamonds, etc. versus going to meet certain death over whether or not I can "out skill" this thug. If it seems like the situation is not manageable to draw, I have no problem in turning over my fate to my Maker. He knows the outcome.