Car-jacking: Older and wiser

[shield20]

Para,

How do you KNOW he ONLY wants your car? How do you KNOW you are "getting out of the situation" at all, unless YOU take action? You trust him because he says so, while he is (at the least) robbing you? OK - so you got out, he got in, and now he is driving away...NOW let him go, you are no longer in danger.

[spacemanspiff]

I'd only shoot out the tires if i was laying on the ground prone and rolling over and over side to side, 'lethal weapon' style. Cause I'm cool like that.

[SIGSHR]

An LEO advised me years ago to carry the vehicle's registration in my wallet, not in the vehicle. If the BG does make off with your vehicle and leaves you intact, you can quickly give law enforcement the license plate,
VIN, etc.

[skeeter1]

If someone wants to jack my 7-year-old Oldsmobile, I'm not going to try and stop them. That's what insurance is for. I'm not going to risk going to prison over a simple car.

If someone breaks into my house, then the rules change... A LOT!

[Odd Job]

I agree with what the other South Africans have said. Genrally speaking if you are stationary and the hijacker is at your side window, you have already lost. You've got equal chances of being shot straight away through the window. They don't always ask you to get out, it depends what they want the car for. Here is a typical scenario:

I am a crime boss and I use Dre_Sa for 'contract' work. One day 40mm comes to me and says the starter motor on his 2001 Golf has packed up and can I find one for him. I say sure, it will cost R200. I tell Dre_Sa I need a starter motor from a 2001 golf and I'll give him R150 for it. Dre_Sa goes out and waits behind a hedge at an intersection in one of the suburbs, looking for Golfs. When the right one comes along and stops there, he just jumps out and shoots the driver through the head or neck through the side window. He will chuck the victim out onto the road and drive off. It doesn't matter that he got the inside of the car dirty or that he broke the side window and possibly damaged the inside of the passenger door too. He brings the car back to me, I pay him R150. I take out the starter motor and burn the car. Then 40mm pays me R200 for the starter motor. So I made R50, Dre_Sa made R150 and 40mm saved a few hundred bucks on a starter motor.

See? A guy died for a starter motor. That's how it works. My mother and sister were hijacked and were lucky to escape that alive. They must have wanted the vehicle in good condition. It was a 3-series BMW (the old shape, very popular for hijacking at one time). The estate agent who came to see our house was hijacked at the gate and an ENT surgeon was shot dead in his car, just as he left the hospital after his shift, in broad daylight.

There is another element to hijacking: they use children on occasion. Here is what happend to a radiologist who was on-call and had to drive out to Baragwanath hospital to report on a brain scan. It was quite dark and as he was driving along he saw a kid lying in the middle of the road, motionless. This looked like a pedestrian hit by a car and left for dead. He pulled up a short way from the kid and got out of the car to investigate. After he took a few steps, the kid miraculously jumped to his feet and darted off to the side of the road. The radiologist caught a fast movement out of the corner of his eye, and made a mad dash back to the car. He got in and slammed the door and was aware of a figure right next to the driver's door. He heard hands on the bodywork of the car as he floored it. Upon arrival at the hospital he inspected the car. There was a piece of skin wedged in the door well, and a blood streak going from that door edge down the side of the car. He must have closed that door in the nick of time, trapping the hijacker's fingers in it before speeding off.

So I guess you really have to be alert and be suspicious of any little thing. I almost had a problem one night, coming back from the hospital at 2 o'clock in the morning. I had just turned left off a main road in Rosebank and was driving down a poorly-lit street. I noticed in my rearview that a white car had turned off after me. I made the next turn left, and the other car also made a left. I slowed down and he also slowed down, didn't want to pass. Now instead of pulling into the driveway of the place where I was staying, I just let the car crawl, loosened my seatbelt and drew the pistol. I also wound the window down and got ready to make a move. The white car stopped and used brights on me, and I opened the door with my left hand, twisting in my seat with the pistol concealed against the headrest with my right. A guy got out the car and I was just about to start the proceedings when the blue lights came on and I saw that the car was a police utility vehicle (what we would call a bakkie). I let him come closer and could see his uniform and empty hands. I holstered the gun and complained to him bitterly about his tactics. He said he thought the car was stolen because it had Durban plates and I was in JHB. I said really sourly that I thought he was a hijacker and we could have had a problem. He should have had the lights and siren on a lot sooner and pulled me over instead of following me around like a weasel.

Mind you, there have been cases where hijackers have dressed as police and pulled people over and taken their cars and valuables. Such is the level of hijacking 'expertise' in SA that it really can be stressful just driving around. I should imagine that it is not as bad in the US.

[chadwimc]

I leave work sometimes at 0300-0400. On the way home, I pass through a stretch of "diverse neighborhoods". At the redlight one night, I paused long enough to clear the intersection. Sure enough, a city cop spotted me. He pulled me over, asked for my license and "where was I going in such a hurry"? I said "I don't wanna linger in this neighborhood any longer than I have to". He kinda snickered. He ran a check on me, then turned me loose. "Be careful next time". Which I took to mean "Don't run a redlight in front of me, stupid"

[bclark1]

Those are some wild stories out of South Africa.

I think the shooting out the tires thing is for the movies. "Europe" is awfully big, so I'm not sure what your local laws are in one particular indescript area thereof, but everywhere I've ever known you reserve deadly force for instances in which you wish to act in a deadly manner. At least you can self-represent in court when they are wondering why you spent a mag and a half once you were already safely away from the car. If you're going to act, act immediately on the pretense that you expected him to cause you harm in order to get the car. Once he's got the car and you're out of it, the situation is defused.

Seems like there's some Ohio guys mulling about in this thread too. I just got here, from Illinois, so it's nice to have some carry provisions. I understand there's no deadly force for property protection here, but what do other Ohioans think about the BG's approach? If a guy was on his way into the car (unlikely because my doors self-lock) or at the window but brought the gun down, could you claim you were in fear for your life or are you better off just giving up the car and hoping you can react if he means worse?

Every city's got the do-not-obey-traffic-signals neighborhoods. There are definitely areas in Chicago that I had to pass through after dark sometimes where you just roll the reds. I've known people who've gotten lost before and were pulled over in some of those areas for driving legally - cops saw them and wanted the opportunity to escort them out. I've already been instructed that my demographic should avoid certain areas around me in Cleveland too, because cops will generally think you're drunk or trying to buy drugs if they see you driving around some areas in the evenings.

[stephen426]

Odd Job,

Thats just a crying shame. People working hard and helping people (Doctors) getting killed for some stupid auto part. I'm sure as heck glad that things are not nearly as bad here in Miami. I think most car jackers just want the car. I also believe that few people get shot if they do not resist. While I believe in being alert, it is possible for a bad guy to get the jump on you. In those cases, just give it up. Cars are replacable, but to the best of my knowledge, lives aren't.

I guess the only thing to do there is invest in an armored car. That is probably big business over there huh? I've read about at a company that does that called armormax. They aren't cheap but I guess it beats having some thug shoot you for your ride. :barf:

[Odd Job]

@ Stephen426

Ja, life just doesn't have any value for some people in SA. It is really sickening, some of the stuff I have seen. The cruelty and evil that abounds is awful (I am not just talking about shooting incidents).

Hijacking: well it got so bad that they had the Blaster system developed. That was the flame thrower system activated by a foot pedal next to the accelerator. IIRC the system was shelved because of road safety concerns if the vehicle was involved in an accident (fire/explosion hazard). A version of the Blaster that used some kind of non-flammable gas like CS instead was developed but I don't think it found favour with the public because it wasn't a 'sure-thing' in many people's minds.

[garryc]

Seems like there's some Ohio guys mulling about in this thread too. I just got here, from Illinois, so it's nice to have some carry provisions. I understand there's no deadly force for property protection here, but what do other Ohioans think about the BG's approach? If a guy was on his way into the car (unlikely because my doors self-lock) or at the window but brought the gun down, could you claim you were in fear for your life or are you better off just giving up the car and hoping you can react if he means worse?

It comes down to the mindset of the procecutor. Did you have reason to fear for your life? Did he have a weapon? Not taking into account that by the time you see a weapon you are probably already dead or at least have no oppertunity to draw your own. Lets understand that in ohio if you even touch the gun while the engine is running you are already in violation of the law.

Not to be racist but if a white guy shoots a black man in Cleveland, Cincinnatti or Columbus he WILL be procecuted. The outcry of the black groups will be broadcast on every news channel. The perpetrator will be made out to be a saint and the victim will be made out to be a racist white devil. The politicians stay in power by catering to these groups. In cleveland the black vote constitutes the majority. Figure on the fact that if he lives he will say you made racial remarks. If he doesn't then anyone in the area, or someone who claims to have been in the area will say you yelled racially derogetory remarks. Yeah, shoot to live, but figure on doing that living in a prison cell.
To sumorize;

bclark1

GET THE HELL OUT OF CLEVELAND AND CUYAHOGA COUNTY!!!!!!:barf: :barf: :barf:

[22-rimfire]

Carjacking and home invasions: If you are the intended victim, I think you are probably in the most danger (ie your life) since you are cornered and can't retreat necessarily. The topic sure makes worrying about a black bear, grizzly bear, or mountain lion seem tame by comparison. Best way to have a dog bite you is to corner it and make it feel that it has no choice to avoid the encounter.

Home invasions, I have that covered as best as I can. Carjacking, that is another matter.

I honestly don't know what I would do in the case of a carjacking which probably means I'd be dead. I think it is time to consider the scenario which is the purpose of this thread. It is quite thought provoking and merits serious consideration.

In the South Africa scenario, I suspect you are just dead as you are dealing with "professionals" who have no regard for your life. There is little defense against people with total disregard for human life. You need body guards and even then, you are not safe.

Situational awareness is crucial. How many perps? Does the perp(s) have weapons drawn? You have more time if they don't. If they do, I believe you have to react immediately and it is probably too late. Basically you come out firing and hope for the best. This is not the time for a 5-shot revolver with no reload available. I am thinking Glock with extra loaded mags. It is essentially a military situation, not a simple crime situation. What do you do when you have a wife or kids in the car? Really tough call. The odds are not good.

You don't have much time to make a judgement about the level of force to apply defensively. My thought is you make a snap judgement as to escape and if escape is not possible, you come out firing. Escape first; "Run Forrest, Run!". I love that movie. Worry about the car later. Defend yourself by whatever means you have at your disposal. I would rather go down fighting.

[RioShooter]

An officer present at a recent CCW class I was at put it to us this way from the persective of an active LE patrolman (Sargent):

The most lethal situations you can get involved in are home invasions and car jackings. In either case, if you have no option of leaving, take your first opportunity to draw your weapon and FIRE.
In either of these situations, it is safe to assume that if you are a man, you will be killed, and if you are a woman, you will at least be raped and then probably killed.

That comes from a Texas LE.
He added that of all the situations that you can avoid by just not going to the wrong parts of town, these two situations can happen no matter where you live or where you go.

This is why I LOVE living in Texas.

[S.Miller]

I'm an Ohio cop and the law is clear in that you have the right to use lethal force if you, or another person, are at risk of death or serious physical harm. This will nearly always imply a weapon being used or threatened against you (though not always...and I won't digress in that direction).

So, if you're seated in your car and a thug comes to your window or hops in an unlocked door, is armed, and tells you to get out (or move over) because he's taking your car then I would say you are clearly at risk of serious physical harm or death (what with the thug brandishing a weapon and all). However, it's never as easy as that. Public pressure, an anti-gun prosecutor, etc. can decide you are wrong. For that matter, if the police investigator thinks your are wrong he/she can slant their report in that directon too. You had better be able to intelligently and clearly articulate the threat against you or another if you end up using lethal force.

I am glad Ohio has a concealed carry law. Now, if we could only get activist judges and sniveling lawyers removed we'd be a much safer, saner place.

[garryc]

Now, if we could only get activist judges and sniveling lawyers removed we'd be a much safer, saner place.

Yeah, and get rid of the sniveling protesters and thier dread locks who protest every time a cop shoots a thug. Funny, a Cleveland cop was killed the other day, no demonstrations, nothing.

Maybe if those demonstrators would have their kids get an education, stop telling them they are victims of society and stop telling them they are owed, this crap would stop. teach these kids to depend on themselves for support rather that welfare and crime. Mean while I get to deal with the low life thugs. I'd trade my job for the day that it is no longer needed.

How about this: You cops and us C/O's get together and go to cleveland in the hood with signs calling them a bunch of low life crimminal scum.

[S.Miller]

garry, many minorities where I work have the attitude that they can do what they want without interference. That's not always criminal behavior, but some of it is. When they are trading punches we're told that it's not fighting, just their culture. When brawls break out at their social events we are blamed for letting it happen. If we use pepper spray we are cursed for that. If we make arrests then we're said to have abused our authority. We cannot win for losing.

The problem is that our government has seen fit to give handout after handout to certain sects of our society. Eventually, these sects come to expect these things as though they are a birthright. If you point out the unfairness of this they will answer that no one would allow them to do certain things or obtain certain jobs, so the handouts are necessary. In other words, were it not for the government programs the white man would continue to keep them down. Where do they get this idea from? Liberal politicians who still see racism behind every corner, as if it were still 1860. Also from public "leaders", who don't insist on hard work and self-sufficiency, but instead want the government to empower people instead of them doing it on their own. They also see racism around every corner, despite themselves having risen to (allegedly) successful levels, being very rich and having great amounts of influence.

It's a vicious circle that our government has enacted and we all suffer for it. Truth be told, the minorities suffer as well and the whole practice not only keeps race relations from improving, it actually further polarizes them.

[garryc]

It's a vicious circle that our government has enacted and we all suffer for it. Truth be told, the minorities suffer as well and the whole practice not only keeps race relations from improving, it actually further polarizes them.

That's because there is power in controlling a conflict. If it were not for racial conflict then many of the so called leaders, both civil rights leaders and politicians, would dry up like a [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] in the desert

[Para Bellum]

Para,

How do you KNOW he ONLY wants your car? How do you KNOW you are "getting out of the situation" at all, unless YOU take action? You trust him because he says so, while he is (at the least) robbing you? OK - so you got out, he got in, and now he is driving away...NOW let him go, you are no longer in danger.

I refer to a specific situation where I end up alive out of the car and the BG is in my car.

...NOW let him go, you are no longer in danger.

I am not excited about the idea to work several months so that a BG can have a car like mine for free...

[Glockoma]

The stories coming from SA, and the crime statistics, just boggle the mind.

So... can anyone name a former colony in sub-Saharan Africa where the arrival of independence and black-governance has not yielded total disaster and has not turned the place into an uninhabitable ****hole? Is there a single success story?

[garryc]

So... can anyone name a former colony in sub-Saharan Africa where the arrival of independence and black-governance has not yielded total disaster and has not turned the place into an uninhabitable ****hole? Is there a single success story?

I'VE HEARD THAT MOGADESHU, SOMALIA WAS A PEARL WHEN IT WAS UNDER COLONIAL RULE, NOW IT'S THE &^%$HOLE OF THE WORLD

[Mrgee03]

I just happened upon this thread and the racism is mind boggling.I am a Black man, a Veteran, a college graduate, a computer engineer with a wife who is also Black works and goes to college (no loans or grants) two children, three dogs (Brown) I have always worked and have never been given any government handouts. I have a CPL so that means no criminal record, the reason I have a CPL is the same reason those of you that have one got yours, Protection.Sorry for this rant but I thought this was about self defense NOT YOUR OPINIONS ON MINORITIES I deal with racism regularly so I should probably be accustomed to it. Can we just stay on point with the subject of the thread ?

[Capt. Charlie]

Sorry for this rant but I thought this was about self defense NOT YOUR OPINIONS ON MINORITIES I deal with racism regularly so I should probably be accustomed to it. Can we just stay on point with the subject of the thread ?

With apologies to MrGee03, he is correct. I've only had time over the last few weeks to hit and run on some of these threads, and didn't note this one spiraling out of control.

I'm not going to close this thread yet, because the issue of carjacking is a very timely one, and up until thread veer, it was also productive. However, if it isn't back on track right quick... well, another one bites the dust.

[orionengnr]

If there are instances that include individuals described accurately, and that offends you, then you own that.

My local news, when describing the perpetrator of a crime, will now say, "witnesses describe the suspect as ...a male". Wow. Was he old, young, tall, short, white, asian, hispanic, or black? No, they will not say, for fear of offending someone. Never mind the fact that the description is absolutely useless for any sort of identification. Have you seen this man? He is...a male! Political Correctness has run rampant...

[Mrgee03]

Ok here we go ! Read the posts from smiller and garyc and tell me what the racial remarks have to do with defending yourself in a carjacking. I live in Detroit where carjackers come in both black and white so maybe i'm wrong but does the defense you use depend on the race of the BG? and don't ever think that I am a liberal or believe in political correctness a person has the right to say whatever they want, I served in the military to defend this and all the other rights we have. I just really find the different viewpoints here interesting and many times helpful.I just don't like the generalisations on minorites no race of people has all good or all bad if a black guy attacks you then that is him not the whole race and if the attacker is white the same holds true.I value the opinions and experience of many members here and have learned alot I just don't think it is necessary to bring race into it unless it has to do with a specific incident. Sorry this is my last rant( I promise)

[Capt. Charlie]

This has gotten completely off topic, and I can't see it getting any better.

Closed.

If someone wants to start another thread on carjacking... minus the racial references, feel free.