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Old June 2, 2001, 06:09 PM   #101
Clayton Hufford
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As far as I know, Pro Shot has no website. They are quite popular at the local gunshops here in Arkansas and Texas. Good stuff at a good price.
I have used G96 quite a bit, and it doesn't work as well as Break Free CLP as a lubricant or protectant, unless we're talking about cold temps. Below zero, G96 Gun Treatment is excellent. It is also more expensive than Break Free CLP, at $8.05 for a twelve ounce can. http://www.g96products.com 973-684-3848
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Old June 3, 2001, 11:46 PM   #102
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Old June 18, 2001, 12:32 AM   #103
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Well...

I've read most all of this spool (can't call it a thread - too long ) and now I wonder "Should I ask this?". Okay, I will - if I'm wrong, let me know.

I have a Charles Daly EFS (Enhanced) in Stainless with just under a hundred rounds fired in two sessions (time constraints) - using Hoppes gun oil. I'm looking for the best (1) break-in lube, (2) follow-on lube, and (3) what considerations/procedures to use for Stainless.

Thanks in advance.

/Andy
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Old June 18, 2001, 03:12 AM   #104
addecus
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lube to use ...

CLP
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Old April 15, 2002, 11:44 PM   #105
Firepower
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Cruzer - Your Balloon is about to be broken

Mr. "Cruzer"

Quote:
Very interesting link. MPC is more likely a blender/repackaging company rather than a manufacturer. I really enjoyed their technical link and their technical papers. Again, very similar to Militec. There is a lot of handwaving that they do in their "technical papers" - saying a lot, but not saying anything.

First off, I don't know where to begin on your "errors' or shall we say, "just how wrong you are".
It appears that even without knowing your credentials, you seem to be an egocentric, pontificating, self-appointed "know it all", when actually you don't know very much at all about that of which you speak, particularly Firepower FP-10 CLP and a few others.

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but you must be held accountable for what you say, and if that which you publicly perpetuate is false and damaging to others, then there are liability issures at hand that can involve malice & punative damages. No, I am not a lawyer (thank God), but I can assure you I have taken others to task on such biased, untrue, and damaging statements, as you have here on this forum, and won.

MPC (Muscle Products Corporation ["the Strength in Lubrication", ergo the name]) was founded in 1985 and incorporated in 1986.
We are indeed Manufacturers and NOT just marketers and/or repackagers that you so cavalierly state as your main assumption.

As for the technical papers you so casually call "...a lot of handwaving" and " - saying a lot, but not saying anything" is just downright Ignorance (now don't take that the wrong way...it by definition means "LACK OF KNOWLEDGE"), which you seem to abound in.
I have written all of those papers over the years and have published them within professional circles, all being received well and with prestigeous acceptance in those professional organizations. If you, for a moment, had any undersatanding of boundary film, hydrodynamic, elasto-hydrodynamic, and mixed regimes of lubrication and tribologic theory and fact, you would be intrigued, rather than disgruntled that you "didn't understand the material".
I have always stated and still do, that there is nothing new in the form of " amazing new discoveries " or new elements on the periodic table, but it is how we can recombine and rework chemical compounds in order to achieve new advances in chemistries and catalytic techniques that bring old methods and knowledge into new-found fields and give us the ability to do things today that were not even dreamed of years ago with the same raw materials. According to your implications, the entire technological field must just be "smoke and mirrors".


Quote:
The fact is that FP-10, and MT-10 contain halogenated hydrocarbons. Halogens are (Fluorine, Chlorine, Bromine, and Iodine). The one thing that these have in common is that they form acids when they decompose (strong acids that attack metal). MPC addresses this directly by saying that they have special scavenger metals and inhibitors to protect the metal. My personal/professional opinion is that this is a stretch (same as Militec). I see no advantage to these chemicals over standard lubricants, and lots of potential downsides. If you are happy with them, fine...
If you want to know, who "primarily" wrote the book on corrosion-controlled, modern day halogenation techniques....then it may come as a real shock to you that you are reading the authors words, right now.
Everything you see, by Militec, Ultra Lube, Pro Long, Pro Blend, Power-Up, Motor-Up, Dura Lube, and the rest, was in one form or another, adapted from or literally copied from my work and publications.
You know NOTHING about Oxirane acid scavengengers (epoxidized oils), organo-metallic surface reacting reagents and chemistries, or just plain hydrocarbon chemical engineering.
You "cry wolf", mimicing the sounds of the left wing environmental extremists and oil company/OEM manufacturing coalitionists who for decades have been trying to repress the truth about improved lubrication and extreme pressure performance, citing "acidic corrosion" and "ozone depletion" to hide the fact that by improving the status quo it would jeapordize their carfully engineerd "planned obselescence" programs, that gets them through their warranty period and THEN places the burden of parts replacements on the consumers.
Let me inform you, Cruzer, that the reality of the situation is not at all as you seem to see it.
In 1987-1989, I worked closely with Occidental Chemical, a major producer of halogenated hydrocarbons, and specifically with Dr. Robert Roberti, their chief chemist in this department, to develop the techniques that you so casually dismiss as a "stretch".
I can tell you one thing for certain; whatever your profession is, according to your "personal/professional opinion" as stated above, is certainly NOT in the field of present day Lubrication Engineering, Tribology, or Chemistry....if it is, then YOU, by all means, need to do some catching up and "re-schooling", as you are grossly out of touch with its current phases.

Firepower FP-10 has been through the complete preliminary compliance testing for the Military Specification and Standard, MIL-L-63460D, CLP for weapons and weapons systems at "Southwest Research Institute" and has met and Exceeded those standards. It is now in full testing phase with the DOD at Picatinny Arsenal, NJ, for the same and "official testing".
Aside from that, we have been selling FP-10 to the United States Military and Special Forces/Navy SEALs, FN Manufacturing, US Repeating Arms, and others too numerous to mention here, for YEARS. We sell it to "Shooters Choice" (Ventco Industries) in bulk 55 gallons of which THEY repackage and use our name "FP-10" by license agreement. They have NO EXCLUSIVE on the FP-10 and are one of our marketing arms. I am sure Joe and Frank Ventimiglia would be delighted to hear your comments on the FP-10 as well.
And another thing you just plain "don't know"...Kimber Mfg. Inc. has re-written their manuals on ALL handguns and rifles to stipulate the importance of using FP-10 on their fine firearms. Dennis Madonia and Winslow Potter of the Kimber Custom shop have been using FP-10 since 1992, when I introduced it to Dennis at Rich Davis' "Second Chance Shoot" along with my representative Joe Gayan.
There are other Firearms manufacturers that do much the same, such as "Barrett Firearms Mfg., Caspian Arms, Wesson Arms, Sig USA, Detonics, Bar-Sto, etc.
And let's not forget about the top Pistolsmiths of the country (whose opinion obviously means nothing to you) like "Ed Brown, Jim Garthwaite, Alan Marvel, Steve Woods, Dave Lauck, etc.".

For the viewing public:
http://www.fp10.com
http://www.mpc-home.com

You really want to know what fumes me Cruzer? I don't care if you do or don't, but I'm going to give it to you anyhow.
The folks on this form are being given false and misleading information by YOU, who some apparently look up to as a reliable source of information. Your impetus and opinionated pontifications do nothing but cause more disinformation to be spread, injuring reputations and masking the truth about issues that you claim to have knowledge of but certainly don't.
These people deserve more than that. They certainly do not deserve the false statements and inaccuracies that I have read here.
I am a member of many forums in the shooting industry/sports, including pistolsmith.com, 1911.com, eliteshooters.com, and EVEN Bill Wilson's Combat Discussion forum. When one of my fellow industry professionals told me about your "dis-information" postings, I came to see and read them. You might be able to imagine my chagrin after reading them TWICE, just to make sure I was reading what you said correctly.

My advice to you, and I would take it if I were you; stick to what you "KNOW", not what you "THINK".
When you start to negatively and falsly accuse products in the industry of "making false claims" or "stretches", you best have done your homework prior to it. Obviously, you didn't, nor did you even bother to open a book.

You can rest assured....I'll be in touch, one way or another.
My identity is well known and always available to the public.
Very Sincerely,
MUSCLE PRODUCTS CORPORATION (MPC)
SOLE MANUFACTURERS OF FIREPOWER FP-10 CLP
Attached Files
File Type: doc boundary film lubrication(misc30-32).doc (47.0 KB, 225 views)
__________________
George C. Fennell, L.E.
MPC - Executive Vice President
Technical Director/FP-10 Marketing & Research Director
Member : Society of Tribologists & Lubrication Engineers (STLE)
Society of Automotive & Aerospace Engineers (SAE)
American Society of Naval Engineers (ASNE)
National Contract Management Association (NCMA) Tidewater Branch
NAVSPECWAR - Small arms Lubricant Consultant

Last edited by Firepower; April 16, 2002 at 09:36 AM.
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Old April 16, 2002, 11:36 AM   #106
Firepower
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Sorry...another GREAT innacuracy

Cruzer Wrote:

Quote:
In general, all of the "halogenated hydrocarbon" lubricants (Ultimalube, Militec, FP10, MT10) are activated by high temperatures and friction. Guns under normal operating conditions will never reach the conditions necessary to really achieve the benefits from these lubricants. I would also not recommend the alternate approach which is baking your guns or heating the lubricants. Both will expose you to safety and health hazards I just couldn't recommend.
This is a statement made out of an incomplete and "general" understanding of how halogens affect metal surfaces.

Halogenation of the metal will occur even in sub-zero temperatures, providing that the metal surfaces are contacting each othe under boundary conditions, which cause the surface asparities to "rub together", even through the oil film, and generate instantaneous high temperatures (well over 210 deg F, which is the point of molecular disassociation of the halogen itself) that cool as quickly as they are formed. This is much like rubbing your hands together when cold and generating heat through frictional contacts of "skin on skin". This same affect will cause a halogen to react to the metal surfaces even in cold ambient conditions.
"Heating the guns" as you say would be not only silly, but pointless, as the process requires more than just heat (being only a catalyst) to work properly. It requires the use of other chemical reagents to properly address the metal surfaces in order to produce the desired transitional effects of asparity roll-out, surface spread characteristics, and the desired inhibition of runaway proteonic reactions. This is where all of that so called "hundreds of thousands of dollars research" that you referred to in another post about synthetic lubricants, comes in.
It is NOT just a simple "breaking of the chain" to form HCl and then the HCl attaching to the Ferrous molecules to form FeCl2. That process has been so heavily modified today that the acids you refer to are inherently "locked up" by the additional chemistries provided to the Halo-Carbons upon the release of the chlorine, fluorine, or bromine. The transitional reagents are THEN reacted to the surface in a more efficient and non-corrosive manner, using organo-metallic reagents similar to olefins and others of the same nature.

To correct your "other statement"....
Guns under normal conditions of operation CONSTANTLY achieve the necessary conditions to activate the necessary conditions to invoke the boundary film formation. Every time the reciever mechanism engages; everytime a slide cycles, every time a bolt is operated, everytime parts move against another is that time that the conditions are met, to their fullest capacity.

Here's one for you:
In 1992 I was contacted by Ed Holda, Smith & Wessons head engineer for their auto-pistols division to invite me to the Springfield, Mass facility to meet with their engineers.
At the meeting, it was explained to me that in their final production process, the pistols must fire 2 magazines flawlessly before being certified and shipped. If they misfed or cycled improperly, causing any type of feed/extraction problem, they were sent to the custom shop for re-fitting until the functionality met the standard. Their current state of successful "off the line firings" was at that time prox 68%. That was considered normal and accepted by S&W, requiring 32% of all autopistols to go back to the pistolsmiths for "tweaking" before being sold. The lubricant that was being used was the big "CLP", without mentioning names.
They then tried the FP-10 in place of it after ordering several cases and 5 gallon pails directly from MPC. To their astonishment, their success rate of 68% INCREASED to 98%. This was so unbelievable to the engineers, that they switched back to using the old CLP to see if what was happening was indeed so.
As anticipated, the success ration dropped back down to between 65 to 70%. They then replaced the old CLP with FP-10 and the rates of successful feeding and extraction went back up to 95-98%. Ironically, even tho their marketing department bought the rights to a PTFE product called "Action Block" and renamed it "S&W Friction Block" (of which they sell to the public), they still order and uses FP-10 in the manufacture and production of every autopistol that goes out.

Now you're probably thinking how can FP-10 cause such a radical change in feed and extraction performance, aren't you?
Here's where that 'ol halogenation without corrosion comes in...
Every auto (or semi-auto) is designed for the spring tensions and tolerances to be "ideally" perfect, or to function under the aspects of perfect surface alignments and low frictional contacts, which is rarely ever the case in actuality. There are always "rough areas", unseen burrs, irregular tolerances and sporadic tight spots that deviate the frictional coefficients high enough to cause the springs to be insufficient in overcoming these. These then, are the occasionally "disfunctional" ones that will have a stovepipe or jam on a regular or sometimes sporadic basis.
The FP-10 IMMEDIATELY addresses these areas of concern by:
1. lapping and rolling out surface irregularities and asparity contact points (these are those "rough spot" and "burrs" that I mentioned previously.
2. Establishing a boundary film (prox 3 microns thick) on each contacting surface.
3. Reducing the coefficient of friction on these surfaces so dramatically, that the springs function as they were designed to, in cycling the weapon to cause precice extraction/ejection and return to full battery conditions.

There are always a few other problems not related to this that make up the remaining 2-3% failures, such as improper barrel fit and/or ramp/hood defects, which have to be addressed mechanically or by hand.

One last point...as I could cite dozens from your posts but really don't have the time:

You also state about "Slip 2000":

Quote:
How can it be a blend of synthetic oils if it contains no oils? If it doesn't contain oils, it could be made of synthetic esters (which are biodegradeable, etc. etc.) or it could be made of siloxanes. Synthetic esters are good, siloxanes are OK but there are better technologies. There is no useful information on their site, just a lot of "magic" and "miracles." Sorry, can't tell you what it is, so I ain't using it. If, per chance, it is a synthetic blend of esters, just buy a quart of Amsoil instead. No flames here either.

Synthetic Oils and fluids are based on many more chemistries than you mention.
There are the glycol groups or esters (in part) which are oil-less. These include the di-ethylene and tri-ethylene glycols, tri-ethanolamines, Poly-glycol esters (POE's), phosphate esters and others. They contain NO non-polar hydrocarbon oils but are in reality still oxygen linked hydrogen-carbon groups that in essence will hydrolize in time and form ...."water". They are ALSO water soluble...meaning they will wash off in the elements. If not washed off, they can provide a significant self-imposed source of oxidation, which is of course, hydrolized water.
SHC's (synthetic hydrocarbons) of which POA (Poly Alpha Olefins) are part of are different from petroleum based HC's inasmuch as they contain a double carbon bond (C=C). They can be constructed to any length molecular chain but their big advantage is in temperature. They can achieve temperatures prox 50-75 degrees higher than petroleum HC's before breaking down. The difference is in the strength of the bond, meaning that once that upper limit is reached, hydrocarbon chain breakdown or failure is catastrophic and much like an avalanche...fast and brutal, leaving low viscosity and low film strength as a testament.
Siloxanes are great for reloading as they wont affect primers and powder (Hornaday One Shot, a mix of Hexane as a carrier and poly di-ethylsiloxane, as the lube). Just done smoke or have any fires light nearby when spraying (and a NIOSH approved respirator is recommended for health reasons). Other than that, they are poor, at best, as standard lubricants, having no load carrying capacity and viscosities that are so low that it violates the surface roughness to viscosity ratio necessary to prevent wear from moving parts.
Also, there are synthetics made from highly refined and severely treated naphthenics that have all the aeromatic benzenes and impurities removed to the point of a food grade quality base-stock. The list goes on, and on.
Bottom line...."oils" and "fluids" are often misused in termanology, but essentially "oils" are ment to imply a "lubricant". Technically, today there are many "oilless oils" on the market, understanding that it may sound like an oxy-moron.

Thats it for now...but I'll be back, I'm sure.
Attached Files
File Type: doc fp-10 msds.doc (52.0 KB, 156 views)
__________________
George C. Fennell, L.E.
MPC - Executive Vice President
Technical Director/FP-10 Marketing & Research Director
Member : Society of Tribologists & Lubrication Engineers (STLE)
Society of Automotive & Aerospace Engineers (SAE)
American Society of Naval Engineers (ASNE)
National Contract Management Association (NCMA) Tidewater Branch
NAVSPECWAR - Small arms Lubricant Consultant
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Old April 16, 2002, 12:28 PM   #107
Dean Speir
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Giv'em hell, George!

But what took you so long?
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Old April 16, 2002, 02:01 PM   #108
Firepower
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WHERE"S WALDO???

Heya DEAN aka Waldo Lydecker !
My gosh, it's good to hear from you.
Your post gave me the biggest smile of the day.
Give me a call when you have time.
The number is on the site but it's certainly no secret.
(800) 227-7049
I'll look forward to a good conversation, as always.
Best to you and yours...
George
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George C. Fennell, L.E.
MPC - Executive Vice President
Technical Director/FP-10 Marketing & Research Director
Member : Society of Tribologists & Lubrication Engineers (STLE)
Society of Automotive & Aerospace Engineers (SAE)
American Society of Naval Engineers (ASNE)
National Contract Management Association (NCMA) Tidewater Branch
NAVSPECWAR - Small arms Lubricant Consultant
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Old April 16, 2002, 02:12 PM   #109
Hen
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Lubrications

WOW looks like the BIG DOGS came to the fight.GRRRRR
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Old April 16, 2002, 06:35 PM   #110
johnwill
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I think I'm pretty safe in saying that we have heard the final word! Perhaps there will be more words, but I think I can see the guy holding the stone tablets.

BTW George, thanks for a lot of very interesting and valuable information on dry lubricants! I'm not an expert, so I hang around and wait for those that are to show me the light. That light appears to be burning brightly from your direction, thanks for setting us straight.
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Old September 6, 2009, 06:56 PM   #111
sidewinderam9m
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Firepower, would you care to comment on this test? http://www.6mmbr.com/corrosiontest.html .... I have used fp-10 and like it for its lubrication properties. As far as corrosion goes I was disappointed when I saw this test. I can see a few things wrong with the test itself but it still seems relevant. I realize the conditions are extreme but what if I found myself in an extreme saltwater or humid situation? I feel more inclined to trust your expertise than one test, that's why I am asking, just want your opinions or knowledge. I have three other questions if you would... Can I use a product like eezox with fp-10? Are any of MPC's grease lubricants designed for firearms or work great with firearms? If so, care to comment on MPC's grease vs tw-25b? Thanks in advance, I appreciate it.
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Old September 12, 2009, 09:04 PM   #112
orionengnr
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Sidewinder, why are we dredging up a thread that is seven and a half years old?
Do your homework and you will find that Firepower is only quoting posts by George Fennel, who is in business selling his own products.
There is no chance of finding unbiased information here. Or for that matter, recent information.

Last edited by orionengnr; September 12, 2009 at 09:11 PM.
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Old September 16, 2009, 09:05 AM   #113
Clark
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If I put motor oil in the bore, and then start shooting, it will not shoot as well as if I patch the bore bare before shooting.

If I put motor oil on the mill, so it will not rust when the temperature is rising and 100% humidity, that oil will not last a season. It seems to evaporate. I don't know that the vapor pressure is for motor oil, but a thin coat can evaporate in 3 months. I find the mill will not rust, if I put an old sheet over it, to prevent air circulation being faster than the thermal time constant of the big casting.

I have dozens of military Mausers that came with grease in the bolt. If I clean out the grease and put in motor oil, it does not seem to evaporate from inside the bolt.

I have a case of Break Free CLP from 15 years ago, before they changed the formula.
I have synthetic motor oil. That seems to be a CLP too, cleaner, lubricant, protectant.

I don't think it makes much difference which one I use for moving parts in a gun.

The barrel threads get motor oil, moly grease, anti-seize, or Loctite.
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Old October 26, 2009, 03:02 PM   #114
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Gun lubricants - again

Gibbs Brand Lubricant
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