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Old August 7, 2018, 03:55 PM   #1
Husqvarna
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Why did certain euro hunting carry over but not all?

Why did certain euro hunting carry over but not all?

Almost no deer hunting with dogs apart from a few states. Deer driving with people also illegal in most states?


Nobody seems to hunt moose with baying dogs
Only hounds for bear? Again no baying spitzbreed dogs?

But hares/rabbits are hunted with same dogs/type dog as in Europe, your beagles, doxens and bassets, harriers and so on.
But not foxes? All them breeds gladly hunt fox

And what about when hares/rabbits go under ground no terriers?

We even hunt pigs with these spitzbreeds and with terriers and smaller herrying breeds

Birddogs seems to be generally allowed for all reasons like flushing and or retrieving. But not treetophunting

but the very common practise of tracking wounded game with dogs is illegal in most (?) states?

Is it the individuel nature of the US? But if so the baying with spitzbreeds for moose, bear and boar would fit right in. Just because we most often do it with people in blinds in the area doesn't mean it doesn't work solo
Love the few instances when i can go out to look for a moose call by myself with my dog.

Last edited by Husqvarna; August 7, 2018 at 04:00 PM.
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Old August 7, 2018, 08:58 PM   #2
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I'm sure the use of dogs problem comes from animal lover/welfare groups. I'm use to beardogs but people tend not to think that the hunter or runner is spending crazy amounts of money to train and maintain the dogs.

People run bear around my parents property and our game cameras came up with some pretty big bear that we didn't want there. One call they were on their way over. Unfortunately a bear killed one of their dogs but they removed 3 from our property.

Moose on the other hand is pretty limited here so I don't think it's much to worry about.
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Old August 7, 2018, 09:54 PM   #3
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A couple of things come to mind.
First, many "hunters" live in town and only come out to hunt a couple of days or maybe a week per year. Keeping a pack of dogs (or even one non-pet) would be very difficult.
Second, those hunters don't own the land they hunt on or they hunt on very small acreages and if everyone cut loose a bunch of trailing hounds during the usually short hunting seasons, the disruption of game movement would ruin the hunting for everyone.
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Old August 7, 2018, 10:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Why did certain euro hunting carry over but not all?

Almost no deer hunting with dogs apart from a few states. Deer driving with people also illegal in most states?
A simple thing to say is that traditions carried over that worked well. Traditions that didn't work so well ended up being discarded. Just because something worked in the Euro theater doesn't mean it works well in the US, Australia, etc. Animal type, population density, environment, regulations, land ownership, etc. all come into play.

At one point, whitetail deer were decimated in the US which brought about many of the deer hunting regulations that we have today. Deer drives were one of the methods that led to the overhunting (or was perceived to have led to overhunting) of deer and so the method wasn't allowed to continue. On top of that, it just wasn't common in many areas of the country either.

Quote:
And what about when hares/rabbits go under ground no terriers?
The european rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus) is a burrowing animal. The european hare (Lepus europaeus) isn't. So the terriers probably are not going underground much for hares in Europe.

Rabbits (Sylvilagus sp. and Brachylagus sp.) and hares (Lepus sp.) in the US are not burrowing animals. They will sometimes occupy the abandoned dens of other animals, but otherwise, they are not common burrowers. As such, no need for terriers to to underground to get rabbits and hares.

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We even hunt pigs with these spitzbreeds and with terriers and smaller herrying breeds
Plenty of people here hunt hogs with dogs. They are called hogdoggers. That they don't use the same breeds is just a preference issue.
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Old August 10, 2018, 04:56 PM   #5
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deer dogging

Running/hunting deer with dogs is a legal practice and a southern state tradition. VA(?), AR, AL, MS, SC, all allow deer dogging, I cannot vouch for other southern US states by am fairly certain on those. Most state have dog zones, ie not all the state would be legal for deer dogging.

Deer dogging is controversial. Some argue the practice is not fair chase. CB radios and ATV's allow hunters to access crossings easily and communicate as to what the chase is doing. It's along way from great granddad and his horse or mule. Dogs do not understand property lines and end up running deer on property where the practice is not wanted. Unfortunately, some handlers let dogs get turned out on property lines and the boundaries get "stood off" while the dogs run deer out of property closed to hunting. Much hound hunting is done with shotguns and buckshot, and many are inclined to blaze away at any deer they see. Cripples are not uncommon, but the dogs help in baying up a wounded deer for recovery.

But there are honorable houndmen as well, and a lot of deep traditions, and dog camps with high camaraderie. Typically, when a kill is made, the entire party will share the meat. And dogging deer can be very productive. The crossings and runs are very much understood by generations of hound hunters,and many deer are taken that way where legal.

Not for me, but where legal, and done ethically, I don't have a problem.
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Old August 10, 2018, 05:20 PM   #6
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one issue is regulation. even if some people wound like to do it, a lot of states forbid dogs for use with anything but birds, bear, and in some cases cougar.

another is cost. it's becoming difficult to convince someone to spend the $20 for a deer tag, $50+ for a tank full of gas, $20+ for a box of ammo, for a single deer, without also tacking on the $100 a month to feed and water a kennel full of dogs.
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Old August 12, 2018, 11:45 AM   #7
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Using dogs isn't considered to be a "fair chase" in most jurisdictions.
Mind you, nothing is nuttier than the assorted hunting regs. Most of which were dreamed up by people who have no idea what they're talking about. We have several counties, mostly in Southwestern Ontario, where hunting with any centre fire calibre greater than .275 (or .270 in some), by the cartridge name, is illegal. So a .275 Weatherby Magnum is fine, but a .280 Rem is not. Plus areas where a shotgun slug is the only firearm allowed, even with a rifled barrel. Then there are the States that don't allow 'normal' deer rifle cartridges but only handgun cartridges.
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Old August 12, 2018, 12:30 PM   #8
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Certainly get your point, but it's a 270 Weatherby Magnum. Not 275. Just say'n.

I grew up in Maryland, now live in Pennsylvania.
Was always told that if you see a dog chasing a deer, shoot the dog!

So far as i've heard same applies in Virginia and West Virginia.

Nothing like opening day of pheasant here. 30 dogs and 15 or so hunters in 1 field. Guys fighting over whose dog has what area. Threatening to shoot each others dog and the other hunter.
Needless to say i don't go out on opening of pheasant.

We are also not allowed to hunt on Sundays. Supposedly to give the game a break from the pressure. Really boils down to forefathers religous beliefs. You should be in church on Sunday, not hunting.
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Old August 12, 2018, 01:45 PM   #9
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Running/hunting deer with dogs is a legal practice and a southern state tradition. VA(?), AR, AL, MS, SC, all allow deer dogging, I cannot vouch for other southern US states by am fairly certain on those. Most state have dog zones, ie not all the state would be legal for deer dogging.
FL as well, except making deer run full out while being chased by dogs cannot leave a good taste in the meat.......
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Old August 12, 2018, 01:54 PM   #10
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Deer dog hunting here in MS is a huge topic of contention. Those who love it have enough pull in the legislature to keep it going. Non dog hunters hate it. Not because they don't think chasing deer with dogs is necessarily bad. It's because what far too many dog hunters do. You'll see them turning their dogs loose on a relatively small tract of land where they have the right to hunt knowing full well that the dogs will cross over into land that they don't have a right to be on. They have no regard for the rights of others.

Then, there are the worst ones. You'll see them lined up alongside rural roads waiting for deer to be chased out. If confronted, they'll say "oh, we're just trying to catch the dogs". All the time, holding their shotguns. There aren't nearly enough game wardens to stop them.
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Old August 12, 2018, 03:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
You'll see them turning their dogs loose on a relatively small tract of land where they have the right to hunt knowing full well that the dogs will cross over into land that they don't have a right to be on.
Same with many hogdoggers.
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Old August 12, 2018, 03:53 PM   #12
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Without reading everyone's remarks, I'm going to say that in America, we don't like cruelty to animals, especially noble creatures like deer and fox. I know folks that hog hunt with dogs in Texas all year round but we are at war with the hogs. Damn things are almost born pregnant. This doesn't explain why folks trap with harmful traps, but I've never met anyone that still does that. It happens more up in the Northern country and I don't like it. I like clean, quick hunting. There is probably lots of folks that may disagree with this but it's a standing threat around me that if anyone wants to be cruel to animals, women or children, they best not do it in my orbit.
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Old August 12, 2018, 05:49 PM   #13
buck460XVR
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Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
Using dogs isn't considered to be a "fair chase" in most jurisdictions.
^^^Yep. Many local and state regs differ because of the hunting ethics/beliefs of the folks that live there. Many are archaic and ineffective, but tend to stick around because it's "tradition". Hunting bears with dogs is like baiting them.....about the only way to effectively hunt bear. In my state, while bear hunting is popular, it is also restricted to those allowed to hunt/kill a bear in specific areas. The kill is determined by the amount of kill tags given out. In many areas of the state, it might take one 5-7 years to get a kill tag. Not so for deer. For deer anyone can buy license and kill a deer if they get a legal opportunity. Thus the kill is determined by length of seasons, and ways to hunt. Also, other than a few western states, most of the country's hunting land is privately owned. many times in small parcels consisting of 40-80 acres or less. Hard to run deer with dogs in areas that small without imposing upon your neighbors. In my state, you can be cited for trespassing if your hunting dog chases game on property you do not have permission to hunt. In those states that allow dogs for deer, it is generally because terrain/cover dictate it. In my state, hunting deer with dogs is considered pretty low dirtball style, while hunting upland game with a good bird dog is considered a "gentleman's sport". Same goes for using dogs for fur-bearers. No-one has a problem with running fox/'yotes with hounds, but don't let the dogs kill them. That will get you cited for animal cruelty.

Deer hunting has evolved a lot in my lifetime along with many of the methods used. Used to be "baiting" deer with food or salt/mineral was illegal and highly frowned upon. Coupla decades ago, it was accepted as being ethical and allowed with certain stipulations. Other than bear, still can't legally bait most other game. It helped that deer numbers exploded in many areas and populations hard to control. With the influx of CWD in the deer herd and it being related to feeding deer, it is now outlawed again in most of the state. Went from an ethics thing to a deer herd health thing. Same kinda happened with turkey hunting. The more the wild turkey's expanded their numbers and range, the longer the hunting day got, and the more tags they gave out. Now, because of high turkey numbers and relatively few fall turkey hunters, they now allow the use of dogs to hunt turkeys in the fall. My state also allows for the use of a dog for trailing wounded deer. I've had severak GWP's over the years that were very good at it. Stipulations are, the dog must be on a leash, and you cannot have a weapon with you. The dog can help you find a dead deer, but unless it's wounded bad enough it can't get up and you can cut it's throat, you are SOL.
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Old August 12, 2018, 07:27 PM   #14
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Several years ago, WA banned cougar hunting with dogs. (also most trapping..) among the results are that where before the state got paid by people to let them hunt, NOW the state has to PAY people to hunt "nuisance" cougars.

Last I heard the state was spending about 2 MILLION dollars a year hiring people to do what people used to line up and pay the state to do.

Some people call that progress....

I don't.
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