Why has nobody ever done this before?

Evad · September 1, 2013, 04:38 PM

I have a rather unique idea that I've been toying with for a bit now. I have a Ruger 10/22 that I have fully customized to be as accurate as possible. It is my understanding that the reason a bolt action rifle is more accurate than a semiauto is due in part to the round having a nice solid launchpad to take off from rather than something that gives. Working off of that belief, if I did some r&d and came up with some sort of latch that locked the bolt from cycling when the gun was fired, that would give me an immediate, noticeable boost in accuracy right? Then, if I built it correctly, I could disengage this mechanism with a switch and the action would work as a normal 10/22 action should for faster firing at closer range. Thoughts?

Evad · September 1, 2013, 04:39 PM

just an afterthought....is this illegal?

**4V50 Gary** · September 1, 2013, 04:57 PM

Nope. Not illegal at all. You are asking the receiver to absorb the blowback energy of the 10/22. This may shorten the receiver's life span.

Evad · September 1, 2013, 05:05 PM

Thanks. As for the receiver's life span, that's where the research and development would come in. I got a few ideas

g.willikers · September 1, 2013, 05:17 PM

Is the bullet out of the barrel, and well on its way, before or after the action begins to move?

Quadpod88 · September 1, 2013, 05:25 PM

does this modification effect the seating of the round in the chamber?

Evad · September 1, 2013, 05:27 PM

I would assume that, at the moment of ignition, the forward action of the bullet and the equal reaction of the brass would begin at the same time.

Evad · September 1, 2013, 05:30 PM

no, it shouldnt affect the seating of the bullet, I just plan to immobilize the bolt completely with something solid behind it that can be engaged or disengaged easily.

Pahoo · September 1, 2013, 05:32 PM

Evad
If I am understanding the concept you have expressed, it has already been done. Not on a 10/22 but other, older semi-automatic .22 rifles. I believe it was Mossberg and Stevens. They had a means of locking the bolt. Some Old-School guys in here might have some. .....

Be Safe !!!

Broker · September 1, 2013, 05:51 PM

It's been done on delayed blowbacks that have a locking bolt that cams down ou of battery. A simple device that kept the lock from camming out was all it took. It wasn't for accuracy though, it was to silence the action cycling, on a silenced weapon. It's my opinion you're chasing the wrong Unicorn. I don't believe you would be able to measure the difference in accuracy of a rifle modified in this manner. In other words, a solution in search of a problem. But hey, what do I know?

dahermit · September 1, 2013, 06:08 PM

For what it is worth, I examined an M1 Garand that had the gas piston and other forward parts removed. The action functioned as a straight-pull bolt action. It was in Michigan years ago, and I suspect it was an ill-attempt to make the M1 into a Michigan-legal (no more than five shots in an auto-loader) deer rifle that still used 8 round clips. Bolt actions can have more than five round capability in Michigan.

jimbob86 · September 1, 2013, 06:20 PM

Quote:

If I am understanding the concept you have expressed, it has already been done.

It's been done.

"Springfield" Stevens Model 87A ..... the bolt knob pushed in to lock it closed.

My dad had one, and it was the most accurate .22 I ever shot. Also the least reliable once it got dirty.

The bolt knob broke after being subjected to a few boxes of hyper velocity "Stingers" ...... I've still got the carcass ..... by brother left it in a wet basement, and it rusted pretty badly.

erikk · September 1, 2013, 06:39 PM

If I am understanding the concept you have expressed, it has already been done. Not on a 10/22 but other, older semi-automatic .22 rifles. I believe it was Mossberg and Stevens. They had a means of locking the bolt. Some Old-School guys in here might have some. .....

Stevens/Springfield Model 87A my first firearm in early 50's (used ) & still have it :-)

Slamfire · September 1, 2013, 06:51 PM

You know, I am not convinced that the better 10/22's are not as accurate as my Anschutz rifles.

No one shoots them prone small bore because you have to single load, but at the range I have seen some tiny groups with customized 10/22's that really make one think about the whole idea that a rimfire blowback can't be as accurate as a bolt rifle.

Venom1956 · September 1, 2013, 07:23 PM

No why would it be illegal?

Many target pistols and rifles have that feature.

Not sure about the accuracy thing. Sounds improbable to me. I suspect the movement of mass of the bolt causes the POA to shift so slightly.

Old Stony · September 1, 2013, 08:07 PM

There are bolt locks available for the 10/22's. I was researching it for a while, as I have a suppressed model and the bolt locks are a lot quieter, but lost interest in the whole thing. Just holding the bolt back manually sure does cut the noise a lot though.

James K · September 1, 2013, 09:14 PM

It seems like a good idea, but is actually pointless. The inertia and mass of the bolt prevents the bolt from moving until the bullet is out of the barrel and gone. If the bolt opened while the bullet was still in the barrel, the case would burst and there would be high pressure gas all over the action.

Tests have been run repeatedly on semi-auto .22 LR vs bolt .22 LR and the differences are within tolerances for the rounds in a box.

(But as for keeping a bolt closed with a suppressor (to eliminate bolt noise), I once did some testing with a suppressor on a Ruger Standard Model and didn't need any mechanical lock; I simply held the bolt closed with the palm of my off hand.)

Jim

Dixie Gunsmithing · September 1, 2013, 09:32 PM

The chambering is different between a bolt action target barrel, and a semi-auto. There are about three types of chambering on .22 LR, but the difference between the target barrel, for a bolt action, is that the rifling starts closer to the bullet, and in fact the bullet is pushed into the rifling a small amount, where this would disrupt the proper cycling of a semi-auto, as the bolt may not close. On the target bolt actions, you have to actually push the bolt closed, thus forcing the bullet into the start of the rifling.

The one in between the two chamber types, is a rifling in between the one used for semi-autos, and the one in target barrels, or it is the one on standard bolt-action, single-shot, and pump rifles. I think they may have even had or have another for target semi-auto pistols too.

Chamber Type
Sporting (Standard) Chamber .7751"Length .2307"Diameter .2270"Throat Diameter
Bentz Semi Auto Match Chamber .6900"Length .2270"Diameter .2255"Throat Diameter
Match Chamber .6876"Length .2267"Diameter .2248"Throat Diameter
Win. 52-D Match Chamber .5800"Length .2278"Diameter .2248"Throat Diameter

James K · September 2, 2013, 01:04 AM

Good point. Of course, simply locking the bolt of a semi-auto is not going to give it a match chamber and I doubt it is going to have any effect at all on either velocity or accuracy.

Jim

Clark · September 2, 2013, 08:32 AM

1) I have a Shilen select match 10/22 bull stainless bull barrel that came with a Bentz chamber.
It did not feed hunting ammo. So I put a SAAMI 22LR reamer in it and removed a little material, but not as much as I could have.
The target guys screamed bloody murder and that I was wrecking the barrel.

2) I have a Yugo SKS that I tried to accurize. I can turn off the gas system so it has to be hand cycled. That did not help the accuracy.

**4V50 Gary** · September 2, 2013, 09:20 AM

I'm thinking of a steel insert into the receiver. Taking from the Stevens 87 that was mentioned (and I have one myself), a locking bolt that is pushed through the steel insert would enter into a hole drilled into the bolt group. That would secure the bolt and prevent it from being blown back. If the steel insert was large enough, it should absorb and dissipate the energy through the receiver. Otherwise, a relief cut (press stress like on the Rem 1100 receiver or the Beretta 92 slide) would have to be made into the 10/22 receiver to prevent a fracture from developing and spreading.

45_auto · September 4, 2013, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evad

I have a Ruger 10/22 that I have fully customized to be as accurate as possible.

Telling us what size groups you're shooting now at 50 yards will enable us to tell you whether locking the bolt would possibly help you or not.

Any decently accurate 10/22 will easily shoot under 1/2" at 50 yards, many manufacturer's will garauntee that level of accuracy.

All of the competitive target 10/22's around here easily shoot under 1/8" at 50 yards.

If you aren't currently able to go out and shoot groups of less than 1/10" (.100) at 50 yards, you're wasting your time fooling around locking the bolt.

**4V50 Gary** · September 4, 2013, 07:28 AM

.45 Auto brings up a good point.

90-95% of the accuracy is in the barrel. From there we can go two ways. Mechanical enhancement & shooter enhancement.

Mechanical enhancement includes better trigger, synthetic stock (to avoid humidity's influence), bedding, free-floating and locking the bolt as suggested.

Shooter enhancement includes better sights, checkering, palm rest (if any), sling (if any).

Dixie Gunsmithing · September 5, 2013, 12:48 PM

Quote:

90-95% of the accuracy is in the barrel.

You are totally correct. A lot of folks don't understand what all goes into producing a match grade barrel, as it is a lot of work when compared to a sporter.

RickB · September 5, 2013, 02:09 PM

Why not just shoot it with your thumb riding the bolt handle? I suppose the muscle tension involved in holding the bolt closed would ruin whatever accuracy improvement you are looking for.

September 1, 2013, 04:38 PM	#1
Evad Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Location: Fond du Lac, WI Posts: 37	Why has nobody ever done this before? I have a rather unique idea that I've been toying with for a bit now. I have a Ruger 10/22 that I have fully customized to be as accurate as possible. It is my understanding that the reason a bolt action rifle is more accurate than a semiauto is due in part to the round having a nice solid launchpad to take off from rather than something that gives. Working off of that belief, if I did some r&d and came up with some sort of latch that locked the bolt from cycling when the gun was fired, that would give me an immediate, noticeable boost in accuracy right? Then, if I built it correctly, I could disengage this mechanism with a switch and the action would work as a normal 10/22 action should for faster firing at closer range. Thoughts? __________________ Only accurate rifles are interesting.

September 1, 2013, 04:39 PM	#2
Evad Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Location: Fond du Lac, WI Posts: 37	just an afterthought....is this illegal? __________________ Only accurate rifles are interesting.

September 1, 2013, 04:57 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Nope. Not illegal at all. You are asking the receiver to absorb the blowback energy of the 10/22. This may shorten the receiver's life span. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 1, 2013, 05:05 PM	#4
Evad Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Location: Fond du Lac, WI Posts: 37	Thanks. As for the receiver's life span, that's where the research and development would come in. I got a few ideas __________________ Only accurate rifles are interesting.

September 1, 2013, 05:17 PM	#5
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Is the bullet out of the barrel, and well on its way, before or after the action begins to move? __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

September 1, 2013, 05:25 PM	#6
Quadpod88 Member Join Date: February 27, 2013 Posts: 93	does this modification effect the seating of the round in the chamber? __________________ *God made all men, but it was Sam Colt who made them equal.*

September 1, 2013, 05:27 PM	#7
Evad Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Location: Fond du Lac, WI Posts: 37	I would assume that, at the moment of ignition, the forward action of the bullet and the equal reaction of the brass would begin at the same time. __________________ Only accurate rifles are interesting.

September 1, 2013, 05:30 PM	#8
Evad Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Location: Fond du Lac, WI Posts: 37	no, it shouldnt affect the seating of the bullet, I just plan to immobilize the bolt completely with something solid behind it that can be engaged or disengaged easily. __________________ Only accurate rifles are interesting. Last edited by Evad; September 1, 2013 at 05:31 PM. Reason: spelling

September 1, 2013, 05:32 PM	#9
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Been done ! Evad If I am understanding the concept you have expressed, it has already been done. Not on a 10/22 but other, older semi-automatic .22 rifles. I believe it was Mossberg and Stevens. They had a means of locking the bolt. Some Old-School guys in here might have some. ..... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

September 1, 2013, 05:51 PM	#10
Broker Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 41	It's been done on delayed blowbacks that have a locking bolt that cams down ou of battery. A simple device that kept the lock from camming out was all it took. It wasn't for accuracy though, it was to silence the action cycling, on a silenced weapon. It's my opinion you're chasing the wrong Unicorn. I don't believe you would be able to measure the difference in accuracy of a rifle modified in this manner. In other words, a solution in search of a problem. But hey, what do I know?

September 1, 2013, 06:08 PM	#11
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	For what it is worth, I examined an M1 Garand that had the gas piston and other forward parts removed. The action functioned as a straight-pull bolt action. It was in Michigan years ago, and I suspect it was an ill-attempt to make the M1 into a Michigan-legal (no more than five shots in an auto-loader) deer rifle that still used 8 round clips. Bolt actions can have more than five round capability in Michigan.

September 1, 2013, 06:39 PM	#13
erikk Member Join Date: October 2, 2012 Posts: 42	If I am understanding the concept you have expressed, it has already been done. Not on a 10/22 but other, older semi-automatic .22 rifles. I believe it was Mossberg and Stevens. They had a means of locking the bolt. Some Old-School guys in here might have some. ..... Stevens/Springfield Model 87A my first firearm in early 50's (used ) & still have it :-)

September 1, 2013, 06:51 PM	#14
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	You know, I am not convinced that the better 10/22's are not as accurate as my Anschutz rifles. No one shoots them prone small bore because you have to single load, but at the range I have seen some tiny groups with customized 10/22's that really make one think about the whole idea that a rimfire blowback can't be as accurate as a bolt rifle. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

September 1, 2013, 07:23 PM	#15
Venom1956 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2008 Location: WI Posts: 3,656	No why would it be illegal? Many target pistols and rifles have that feature. Not sure about the accuracy thing. Sounds improbable to me. I suspect the movement of mass of the bolt causes the POA to shift so slightly. __________________ E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug

September 1, 2013, 08:07 PM	#16
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	There are bolt locks available for the 10/22's. I was researching it for a while, as I have a suppressed model and the bolt locks are a lot quieter, but lost interest in the whole thing. Just holding the bolt back manually sure does cut the noise a lot though.

September 1, 2013, 09:14 PM	#17
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It seems like a good idea, but is actually pointless. The inertia and mass of the bolt prevents the bolt from moving until the bullet is out of the barrel and gone. If the bolt opened while the bullet was still in the barrel, the case would burst and there would be high pressure gas all over the action. Tests have been run repeatedly on semi-auto .22 LR vs bolt .22 LR and the differences are within tolerances for the rounds in a box. (But as for keeping a bolt closed with a suppressor (to eliminate bolt noise), I once did some testing with a suppressor on a Ruger Standard Model and didn't need any mechanical lock; I simply held the bolt closed with the palm of my off hand.) Jim

September 1, 2013, 09:32 PM	#18
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	The chambering is different between a bolt action target barrel, and a semi-auto. There are about three types of chambering on .22 LR, but the difference between the target barrel, for a bolt action, is that the rifling starts closer to the bullet, and in fact the bullet is pushed into the rifling a small amount, where this would disrupt the proper cycling of a semi-auto, as the bolt may not close. On the target bolt actions, you have to actually push the bolt closed, thus forcing the bullet into the start of the rifling. The one in between the two chamber types, is a rifling in between the one used for semi-autos, and the one in target barrels, or it is the one on standard bolt-action, single-shot, and pump rifles. I think they may have even had or have another for target semi-auto pistols too. Chamber Type Sporting (Standard) Chamber .7751"Length .2307"Diameter .2270"Throat Diameter Bentz Semi Auto Match Chamber .6900"Length .2270"Diameter .2255"Throat Diameter Match Chamber .6876"Length .2267"Diameter .2248"Throat Diameter Win. 52-D Match Chamber .5800"Length .2278"Diameter .2248"Throat Diameter Last edited by Dixie Gunsmithing; September 1, 2013 at 10:15 PM.

September 2, 2013, 01:04 AM	#19
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Good point. Of course, simply locking the bolt of a semi-auto is not going to give it a match chamber and I doubt it is going to have any effect at all on either velocity or accuracy. Jim

September 2, 2013, 08:32 AM	#20
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	1) I have a Shilen select match 10/22 bull stainless bull barrel that came with a Bentz chamber. It did not feed hunting ammo. So I put a SAAMI 22LR reamer in it and removed a little material, but not as much as I could have. The target guys screamed bloody murder and that I was wrecking the barrel. 2) I have a Yugo SKS that I tried to accurize. I can turn off the gas system so it has to be hand cycled. That did not help the accuracy. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

September 2, 2013, 09:20 AM	#21
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	I'm thinking of a steel insert into the receiver. Taking from the Stevens 87 that was mentioned (and I have one myself), a locking bolt that is pushed through the steel insert would enter into a hole drilled into the bolt group. That would secure the bolt and prevent it from being blown back. If the steel insert was large enough, it should absorb and dissipate the energy through the receiver. Otherwise, a relief cut (press stress like on the Rem 1100 receiver or the Beretta 92 slide) would have to be made into the 10/22 receiver to prevent a fracture from developing and spreading. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 4, 2013, 07:28 AM	#23
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	.45 Auto brings up a good point. 90-95% of the accuracy is in the barrel. From there we can go two ways. Mechanical enhancement & shooter enhancement. Mechanical enhancement includes better trigger, synthetic stock (to avoid humidity's influence), bedding, free-floating and locking the bolt as suggested. Shooter enhancement includes better sights, checkering, palm rest (if any), sling (if any). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 5, 2013, 02:09 PM	#25
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Why not just shoot it with your thumb riding the bolt handle? I suppose the muscle tension involved in holding the bolt closed would ruin whatever accuracy improvement you are looking for.