Interesting Range Session - With one question

[USAF Ret]

Well it was a good and bad range session today.

Good - My word those CVAs are tack drivers with the Bergara barrel and trigger. Three shots of Norma 308 Whitetail to set the scope and three shot group and put her in the case.



I installed and LPVO 1-6X24 on my Marlin 336. I know you don't get MOA groups. Had one that was a bit of a flier, but would you lever-gun hunters say this is good enough at 100 yards?



Bad - HOWA 270 was shooting all over the target and sometimes not even hitting the target. So, it's the either the scope or the rifle. Pulled it out when I got home to put it in the gun rack and figured it out in 2 seconds. The stock I had it installed in was loose. I reckon that will do it. Just need to put some blue lock-tite on it and find the torque specs somewhere. Wasted a box of ammo trying to figure it out.

[taylorce1]

Stuff like that happens, I don't think I'd use Locktite on action screws though. I'd just make sure theyre clean and dry when installing. I can't help on the torque specs, I usually go a little past snug and then tighten as needed.
The rifle will usually tell you what it likes.

[USAF Ret]

Torqued the stock 45 in lbs in front and 40 in rear and put the Wheeler scope loc-tite on it. Hoping it stays put. I have a 6.5 Grendel with the same stock, so I reckon I need to check it as well.

Did that before I saw the recommendation not to use it.

[taylorce1]

That's not blue, more like purple. You'll be alright.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

That's not blue, more like purple. You'll be alright.

Thanks Chad. Hated I wasted ammo today, but I have reloading brass. Glass half full.

Grendel bolts needed to be tightened as well.

[44 AMP]

Loctite makes a RANGE of products, within each broad color, and you don't want to use a "nuclear grade threadlocker" when what you want is something to keep gun screws tight.

I recommend a product called "Guntite" though I haven't gotten any in ages (still haven't used up the small tube I got years ago) not sure if they still make it. Stuff I got was in a white tube with green lettering. Is it "green" loctite? I don't know, don't care. IT works great!

DEGREASE (remove all oils/grease) from the threads and screws don't back out or loosen, but can still be removed easily with the proper screwdriver or wrench. One SMALL drop in the threads is all you need.

One other thing I would recommend, taking the needed tools for all your gun screws to the range with you, and using them when needed. Will probably save you some ammo. What I do, when a gun isn't shooting well, first thing, is check ALL the screws, WHILE AT THE RANGE. Tighten what (if anything) is loose and shoot some more to see if that solves the problem.

If so, you can "loctite & torque" the screws at home afterwards.

[stagpanther]

Just my own peculiarity--I never use a locker product on any screws anymore, all it does is combine with solvent and residue to make a cement sludge IMO. I have to check torque more often. Oh well.

[MarkCO]

Yes on your two good targets.

Thread lockers, a very misunderstood thing.

Most are actually a limited corrosion process, so they need to have an activated metal (or use a primer to activate) and be free of oils. Black Oxide screws, anodized, are passivated and the use of some liquid thread locks will increase the propensity to back out as they basically lube the connection. Mechanical ones, that are applied, and cured, then connected, are more widely used in the automotive, and should be used more in the firearms. But in most cases, best to just use the torque setting recommended by the manufacturer for action screws.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

Yes on your two good targets.

Thread lockers, a very misunderstood thing.

Most are actually a limited corrosion process, so they need to have an activated metal (or use a primer to activate) and be free of oils. Black Oxide screws, anodized, are passivated and the use of some liquid thread locks will increase the propensity to back out as they basically lube the connection. Mechanical ones, that are applied, and cured, then connected, are more widely used in the automotive, and should be used more in the firearms. But in most cases, best to just use the torque setting recommended by the manufacturer for action screws.

Thanks for the feedback on the 30-30. It is going to the blind with me this week.

I wasn't sure on the thread lock. It works pretty good on most things. I could not find specific manufacturer torque specs. I did some looking and for a Bell and Carlson it was recommended more than once to hit 45 in lbs on the front and 40 on the back. I will keep check on that.

I did back the screws all the way out and put some thread lock on them, but as was stated, it is more like the purple kind. I did not degrease the bolts, but if they come back out I will and do it again.

[USAF Ret]

"One other thing I would recommend, taking the needed tools for all your gun screws to the range with you, and using them when needed. Will probably save you some ammo. What I do, when a gun isn't shooting well, first thing, is check ALL the screws, WHILE AT THE RANGE. Tighten what (if anything) is loose and shoot some more to see if that solves the problem."

Yes sir. That is a lesson learned. But, tools would not have done me any good at the time as I was too green to notice the stock was loose. I was too focused on checking the scope with the rifle was sitting in the bags. I will check everything from now on. Never had that happen before, but I shoot much more now than I ever have. So, I reckon it was time for me to run into an issue.

[stagpanther]

I have a howa action installed in a B&C stock; much like a wood stock I found that it needed bedding to get a good fit to the action.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I have a howa action installed in a B&C stock; much like a wood stock I found that it needed bedding to get a good fit to the action.

If I keep having this issue, that may be what I do. Thank you for the suggestion.

[NHSHOOTER]

Just my .02, I think that 3 shot group from a lever gun at 100 yds is outstanding..

[stagpanther]

I'm not surprised at all at the cascade's accuracy, I might just have to get one for myself--maybe the 6.5 PRC.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by NHSHOOTER

Just my .02, I think that 3 shot group from a lever gun at 100 yds is outstanding..

No sir, that was the CVA Cascade in 308. The bigger group was from the Marlin 336. I am loading up some FTX bullets for testing this weekend and hoping to close the group up a bit more, plus have a lot more velocity with the Lerverevolution powder.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I'm not surprised at all at the cascade's accuracy, I might just have to get one for myself--maybe the 6.5 PRC.

If I had to get rid of everything and keep one gun, out of the cheap and expensive stuff I have, it would be my Cascade 308. I have one in 6.5 CR as well and for what you get, I think it is the best deal out there. Trigger is one of the best. I know they use Bergara barrels, but the trigger feels the same as well. Think it measured at a little less than three pounds.

Both are absolute tack drivers.

[44 AMP]

I spent over 3o years as a Nuclear Chemical Operator and quite a few of those were running the chemical management program for a nuclear facility. I've got a fairly broad experience with a lot of different commercial chemical products and their use, including numerous grades and types of threadlockers, Torqueseals, solvents, lubricants, and others.

If you use something that doesn't work properly, its nearly always the fault of either incorrect application, or an incorrect choice of product for the purpose.

Threadlockers are widely misunderstood, by the general public, no question. I virtually cringe every time I read someone say "use the Blue /Red/ etc. Loctite" without any further explanation. its HORRIBLE advice.

IF "the use of some liquid thread locks will increase the propensity to back out as they basically lube the connection.", then you literally, used the wrong stuff for that application.

[MarkCO]

IF "the use of some liquid thread locks will increase the propensity to back out as they basically lube the connection.", then you literally, used the wrong stuff for that application.

Exactly!

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I spent over 3o years as a Nuclear Chemical Operator and quite a few of those were running the chemical management program for a nuclear facility. I've got a fairly broad experience with a lot of different commercial chemical products and their use, including numerous grades and types of threadlockers, Torqueseals solvents, lubricants, and others.

If you use something that doesn't work properly, its nearly always the fault of either incorrect application, or an incorrect choice of product for the purpose.

Threadlockers are widely misunderstood, by the general public, no question. I virtually cringe every time I read someone say "use the Blue /Red/ etc. Loctite" without any further explanation. its HORRIBLE advice.

IF "the use of some liquid thread locks will increase the propensity to back out as they basically lube the connection.", then you literally, used the wrong stuff for that application.

And, I learn something new every day. I will not be using it anymore.

[44 AMP]

Nothing wrong with using the correct threadlocker the right way. It can be a very useful thing, done right. Done wrong, not so much, and possibly even a problem.

As I posted earlier I've had good results with "Guntite". In the distant past I've even used enamel model paint or the wife's fingernail polish to lock screws in place, or serve as a tell tale to show if they have moved. All that really matters is you use something (IF NEEDED) that keeps the screws from moving and that YOU can remove the screws normally when you need to.

Something to watch for, if you shoot revolvers, is screw tightness. Something about revolvers vibration tends to loosen screws. Bit of an eye opener when a screw that you tightened, and that still looks tight goes a part of a turn when you check it with a screwdriver.

Old revolver shooters learned it was SOP to check ALL the screws for tightness, before taking the gun out to use. It think its a good practice to have properly fitting gun screwdrives and check ALL screws on anything for tightness every time the gun is removed from storage, before use.

You MAY never find a loose screw. But the first time you do, you'll realize the wisdom of checking. (and, "checking" is not reefing on the screw as hard as you can to tighten it more...)

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Nothing wrong with using the correct threadlocker the right way. It can be a very useful thing, done right. Done wrong, not so much, and possibly even a problem.

As I posted earlier I've had good results with "Guntite". In the distant past I've even used enamel model paint or the wife's fingernail polish to lock screws in place, or serve as a tell tale to show if they have moved. All that really matters is you use something (IF NEEDED) that keeps the screws from moving and that YOU can remove the screws normally when you need to.

Something to watch for, if you shoot revolvers, is screw tightness. Something about revolvers vibration tends to loosen screws. Bit of an eye opener when a screw that you tightened, and that still looks tight goes a part of a turn when you check it with a screwdriver.

Old revolver shooters learned it was SOP to check ALL the screws for tightness, before taking the gun out to use. It think its a good practice to have properly fitting gun screwdrives and check ALL screws on anything for tightness every time the gun is removed from storage, before use.

You MAY never find a loose screw. But the first time you do, you'll realize the wisdom of checking. (and, "checking" is not reefing on the screw as hard as you can to tighten it more...)

Sage advice.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by USAF Ret

And, I learn something new every day. I will not be using it anymore.

Some applications, it is best. Others, not so much. It is using the proper method for the design of the threaded connection. That provided there was a "design" in the first place.

Some, with torque, are designed with friction of the flanks against each other. Some are designed to actually stretch the shank (reduced diameter) for the retention. Wire locks, enamel locks and lock washers (often used in racing and automotive) are mechanical and, as explained, "LocTite" in it's various forms have a host of applications, and sizes, but most of the standard ones utilize a chemical reaction, with or without air, to cure.

Most times when I write about thread lockers in the gun forums, I get attacked as the general public really does not get it, as 44 AMP alluded to. Just realize that a "manufacturer" may not understand it either. I've had 3 gun related cases that proved that.