How are cartridges defined as obsolete?

[ChuteTheMall]

.30 Super Carry

What, too soon?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by ChuteTheMail

.30 Super Carry

What, too soon?

There should be a separate category for "obsolete by design."

[44 AMP]

here's a thought, these days of internet everything, I think people declare a cartridge obsolete when they want to increase their "web hits"...(or whatever the proper term is...)

Declare something dead or obsolete and you get people looking at your stuff when they agree and when they don't.

Old tactic, commonly seen in gun magazines particularly in caliber "wars" and X vs. Y articles. Say something outrageous people read it, whether they agree or disagree, they still read it...

As to the .30 Super Carry, I always felt it was a solution in search of a problem....

[Mycin]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

here's a thought, these days of internet everything, I think people declare a cartridge obsolete when they want to increase their "web hits"...(or whatever the proper term is...)

Declare something dead or obsolete and you get people looking at your stuff when they agree and when they don't.

Old tactic, commonly seen in gun magazines particularly in caliber "wars" and X vs. Y articles. Say something outrageous people read it, whether they agree or disagree, they still read it...

As to the .30 Super Carry, I always felt it was a solution in search of a problem....

Nah, 30 Super Carry was a solution to a very real problem: Getting people to buy more micro-compact pistols since the buzz around the double-stack micro 9's was starting to die down, and most people who wanted a P365 or Hellcat had already bought one, often only a few years after buying a single-stack micro-9 when that was the big fad.

[44 AMP]

30 Super Carry was a solution to a very real problem: Getting people to buy more micro-compact pistols ...

Not a real problem in my world.

Never cared much for reealy small pistols, and especially those made with a lot of plastic.

I generally go by a couple of primary points for a defensive pistol. First, in a worst case scenario if all other options fail, the pistol becomes an impact weapon, and if it comes to that, I'd prefer something with a bit of heft to it. Steel, preferably.

Second, I am always leery about any new cartridges, not because of doubts of performance, but doubts about longevity. And, especially when the new round cannot be made or made easily from common long established and widely distributed cartridge cases.

There are a LOT of rifle and some pistol rounds created in the past 50-60 years that have been dropped by their makers and in many cases dropped by ammo makers as well. Remington was infamous for it, and some of us still remember the 5mm Rem Mag eventually became something where a single box of ammo was worth more than the rifle.

SO, maybe they have warehouses full of .30 Super, plenty...FOR NOW...what happens if down the road the makers decide its just not making them enough money to keep in production? If I can't get, or make ammo, a gun is just an awkward club or a piece of metal sculpture.

Thanks, but no thanks, I'll stick with what I know will be around and live with what it does, and doesn't do just fine.

[SIGSHR]

"Obsolete" is not the right term IMHO. When the military declares something to be "obsolete"-the M-1 Rifle, the M-1 Carbine, the M-1 Submachine gun, e.g. all issued items are turned in, new equipment is issued, the old ones no longer supported, manufacture discontinued.
No longer manufactured, commercially unviable, unprofitable, too difficult to manufacture are better descriptions IMHO. AFAIK rimfire rounds larger than 22 were discontinued decades ago, no demand for them means they are unlikely to be revived, nor can they be easily made with home kits.
"Obsolete" implies ineffective, outmoded, a poor choice. Can we say the 5.56 is obsolete
because it is a poor choice for deer, can we say the 30-30 is obsolete because the .308 has greater range and power, a flatter trajectory ?

[czgunner]

Originally Posted by ChuteTheMall

.30 Super Carry

What, too soon?

Dead on arrival.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[natman]

Originally Posted by SIGSHR

"Obsolete" implies ineffective, outmoded, a poor choice. Can we say the 5.56 is obsolete
because it is a poor choice for deer, can we say the 30-30 is obsolete because the .308 has greater range and power, a flatter trajectory ?

No. The 5.56 is not obsolete because it's a poor choice for deer, because it's still useful for varmints.

Besides the real meaning of obsolete in cartridges has more to do with availability than whether it can still be used for something.

[44 AMP]

Obsolete has a dictionary definition, and a slightly different one, or with different emphasis depending on who is using the term in what context.

The commercial market says things are obsolete when profit no longer justifies production and production ends. IT has NOTHING to do with the functionality of the item.

The Military uses obsolete for equipment that no longer meets first line issue standards. It may be scrapped, or sold, or given away (as military aid) or it may be retained in service for some time as a secondary standard or to equip National Guard and Reserve units.

Are muzzleloaders obsolete? Absolutely, by many standards, but production continues because they are still popular with many people.

Bows & arrows? Military hasn't used them for a VERY long time, but lots are made and sold every year because they still have a real world utility.

The Buggy whip is obsolete,,unless you have a horse and buggy...

[Mike Irwin]

"The Buggy whip is obsolete,,unless you have a horse and buggy..."

Or a very kinky lifestyle...

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Having a conversation in the comments on youtube in which 45auto was deemed obsolete. Got me to thinking as to what obsolete is, and how it is applied to the cartridge world.

Many cartridges that are in common use are quite old. The newer cartridges are based on similar technology. According to this article these are the 7 most popular handgun cartridges. https://backfire.tv/7-most-popular-h...pros-and-cons/

22lr, 1884, 138yrs old
9mm Luger, 1901, 121yrs old
40 S&W, 1990, 32yrs old
45 Auto, 1904, 118yrs old
38spl,1898, 124yrs old
357 magnum, 1935, 87yrs old
380 auto, 1908, 114yrs old

So I cannot believe age alone is a factor.

So by what criteria is a cartridge defined as obsolete? how does one define or quantify "in common use".

YouTube is the first problem for accurate information. Some of what I see on there is just idiotic.

[44 AMP]

Age alone is not a factor. .45 Colt and .45-70 are both still quite popular and both came out in 1873. Popularity has risen and fallen and risen again over the years but both have been popular enough to have remained in production.

Black powder was "obsolete" well over a century ago, but is still made and we still use it.

When ever someone declares a round "obsolete" do pay attention to what they are pushing as its replacement, and why.

[Scorch]

How are cartridges defined as obsolete?

Many cartridges that are in common use are quite old

And that right there is the definition of obsolete. Are they commonly purchased? Age has nothing to do with it. 45 Colt has been around since 1873. The 44-40 and 38-40 came along a few years later. The 303 Savage came along even later. The 22 Savage High Power came along even later. The newer ones are obsolete, but the 45 Colt is going strong. Date of introduction has absolutely NOTHING to do with obsolescence, it is how many people are buying the cartridge, which tells the manufacturers what to make. No or very low demand? Then the cartridge is obsolete. I could mention a dozen cartridges introduced over the past 50 years that are obsolete, and several older ones that are still going strong. When is the last time you saw a box of 300 TC on the shelf? Can you say 30-30? I knew you could.

[44 AMP]

With cartridges, commercially "obsolete" is a POPULARITY CONTEST. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Both the .45 Colt and the .45-70's popularity had declined quite a bit over the years, in favor of newer rounds that did things "better". Then when as their centennial approached, a lot of people "rediscovered" them, and realized that they still do what they did very well, and popular interest increased. The market responded by once again producing new guns, and that made them even more popular rounds and that has continued to this day.

Cowboy Action shooting has revived a number of "obsolete" rounds, as well. Cap & Ball guns (and other period muzzle loaders) got a huge boost in the 60s with the centennial of the Civil War. And, they're still pretty popular today.

Today's "obsolete" round could well be tomorrows "nostalgia king of the hill".

[4V50 Gary]

No longer produced.
No longer in public demand.

[ligonierbill]

If I'm loadin' it, it's probably obsolete. But then, so am I!

[Mk VII]

.303 British - no new arms produced for it for decades, but the big heap of milsurp arms will keep it going for a long while yet.

[HiBC]

Guns are durable items. They get passed on. Shooting is fun. Hunting cartridges effective 100 years ago are still effective.

My 30-40 Krag,vintage 1898, might be considered obsolete but it will make venison as well as it did in 1921 .

I value it for a cast bullet platform. IMO,few successful cartridges become functioally obsolete.

But the gun and ammo manufacturers do not exist as non-profit organizations.

Bean counting gurus study orders and numbers,. How much cartridge brass strip do we have? Whats the maintenance schedule on 5.56 dies? We have an order for 40 million rounds of 40 S+W for the EPA? Well,its money.

Maybe,right now, with the raw brass stock they can get they run 3 shifts and can't keep up with orders for the top 10 cartridges. Like 223,308,30-30- 9mm .45..357.etc. Likely I will wait quite a while for a run of 30-40 krag,

Production tooling wears out. The 30-40 dies might be from 1957. The press format likely changed. New tooling is a big capital investment.

Management has fiduciary responsibility to shareholders.

"Service to the shooters" Yeah We do what we can.

A perfectly good cartridge might not find a way into the production schedule.

Is it obsolete?

[DaleA]

A perfectly good cartridge might not find a way into the production schedule.

IMhO a very astute observation.

P.S. If anybody was waiting for the big influx of cheap copper and nickel from the up North Minnesota mine...well a 20 year kabosh was just put on that. On the other hand if you're pining for a wilderness adventure the Minnesota Boundry Waters Canoe Area is should be available in its pristine condition for quite a while.

P.P.S. That is unless the Climate Change people are correct and then the world ends in about 9 to 10 years.

[Scorch]

Any cartridge might be classified as "perfectly good". 44 Evans. 45 Schofield. 41 Colt. But perfectly good doesn't mean anything to commercial operations, they are in it for MONEY, so it has to be something people will buy, and not just one box here or there, manufacturers want ROI. Taking 2-3 hours to set up a machine and then running it for 1 hour doesn't make sense. OK, none of that matters! Manufacturers want to make money, not shoot guns! If it doesn't make financial sense, they won't make it! That means if you want to shoot it and nobody makes ammo for it, you gotta make it.

[44 AMP]

That means if you want to shoot it and nobody makes ammo for it, you gotta make it.

If its something you can make....

Form it from a common available centerfire case, easy-peasey.

make something like a 5mm Rem Mag rimfire? not so much....

[Scorch]

Form it from a common available centerfire case, easy-peasey.

I used to work for a guy who made obsolete ammo 45 years ago. We made 8mm Lebel, we made 401 Herters Super Mag, we made 405 Winchester, we made 35 WSL and 351 WSL. We made just about anything you could name. Some was easy-peasy, some was just downright hard to make. Forming, base-stripping, drawing, turning rims, working with new brass we annealed, new brass we used as it was, base stripping (using a die to remove material from the head or base of the cartridge, it was usually slow and difficult. It was cool, but it made it hard to get the brass you wanted to get out of it in a reasonable amount of time. And then you got the whining guy "oh, that's so expensive! I just wanted to shoot grandpa's old rifle just to remember him"or some such. If you have an old-timer, go ahead, pay what somebody wants for their ammo, it's easier than making it.

[SIGSHR]

It would seem then that the only truly obsolete calibers are the large bore rimfires, since the technology and machinery for reloading them at home is not available.

[44 AMP]

Pinfires, even more "obsolete" than big bore rimfires, I would think.

[Savvy_Jack]

Obsolete

adjective
1.no longer produced or used; out of date.
"the disposal of old and obsolete machinery"

There ya go right there!