pew pew cowboy

[J.W.Proctor]

So I just got a new marlin 1894C. I think the c stands for 357 but I'm not sure. Either way the one I got is chambered in 357. I want to start reloading for it right away . I have the dies and a lynman book on cast bullets.

Three questions though...
First what bullet shape should work best? I imagine round nose but maybe I'm wrong . Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time. I wanna get a mould for both 38 special and 357 which I assume could be the same.

What should I expect with the longer barrel. I imagine higher velocities but are there any words of wisdom when working up loads.

Also which powders would be best? Faster burning ,slower burning ? Medium? I've heard some good things about trailboss but it seems to be just about twice the price of regular powder. And I'm reloading to save money and my rounds are just for plinking and fun.

[CarJunkieLS1]

The C stands for carbine, I believe. Your rifle have a 16" barrel? I can't say for certain as I don't shoot or load a 357 but with increased velocities from the longer barrel, be aware of "leading" the barrel. As far as bullet shape and RN or semi wadcutter will work just fine. If I had a 357 lever gun and it wouldn't feed a semi wadcutter I'd return it for a refund.

[RC20]

Have you reloaded before?

[Marco Califo]

The Sierra manuals have different articles and load data for the 357 and 44 mags, one each for handguns and rifle loading.
Yes, more velocity. Same powders pretty much.
Articles (with the load data discuss loading implications, like crimp, etc.).

[lugerstew]

Enjoy, my cousin has a henry in 44 mag and loves it, just remember, NO pointed tip bullets ever in a tube magazine.

[Unclenick]

The 1894C is an 18.5" barrel carbine made to run either .357 or .38 Special without modification. The best bullets for all tubular magazines are flat nose bullets that are wider at their meplat than the primer (wider than 0.175" in the case of a small pistol primer, magnum or not). In Jacketed bullets this will be a soft-nose of a hollow point, while semi-wadcutters in lead are an obvious choice. Just be sure to get one for the case you are using. Bullets for 357 have their crimp groove further forward than you find on a bullet intended for 38 Special, whose case is shorter by 0.135", but whose COL is only 0.040" shorter. Some bullets have two crimp grooves for this reason, with the rear one for the Special and the one near the nose for the Magnum. Round nose is normally OK if your primers are below flush with the case head so the round nose can't hit the primer hard during recoil. I've never heard of a round nose firing a properly seated primer.

You will need to crimp this ammunition firmly so the inertial of the stack of rounds in the magazine tube can't push your bullets deeper into the case during recoil.

You will need to be sure your primers are firmly seated. Ideally, they should be seated about 0.003" past the point where the anvil feet can be felt touching the bottom of the primer pocket.

All kinds of powders will work. For Target Loads, any target powder you have on hand will do. For 357 Magnum full-power loads, the old standby 2400 or 296/H110 are just fine.

Regarding leading, you can do a lot to mitigate it. One problem with lever guns is a tendency for over-fast cutting feed speeds to cause small constrictions in the bore where dovetails are cut for sights or magazine hangers. You want to slug the barrel to feel for any tight spots. If you find them, they may be firelapped out. If they aren't removed, they compromise lead bullet accuracy and increase leading. Firelapping smooths the bore and reduces leading and makes the barrel easier to clean anyway.

Don't worry about barrel length increasing leading. Velocity isn't really what causes it; pressure is. Whenever a speed limit is applied to lead bullets, it is on the assumption a standard length barrel of some sort is being employed, so velocity gained from a longer barrel doesn't count. As long as you work with pressure the bullet likes and the bullet fits the bore well and doesn't have a rough surface or constrictions or a taper that widens toward the muzzle; it will be fine.

Have fun with the new rifle.

[Real Gun]

Originally Posted by J.W.Proctor

So I just got a new marlin 1894C. I think the c stands for 357 but I'm not sure. Either way the one I got is chambered in 357. I want to start reloading for it right away . I have the dies and a lynman book on cast bullets.

Three questions though...
First what bullet shape should work best? I imagine round nose but maybe I'm wrong . Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time. I wanna get a mould for both 38 special and 357 which I assume could be the same.

What should I expect with the longer barrel. I imagine higher velocities but are there any words of wisdom when working up loads.

Also which powders would be best? Faster burning ,slower burning ? Medium? I've heard some good things about trailboss but it seems to be just about twice the price of regular powder. And I'm reloading to save money and my rounds are just for plinking and fun.

Those lead bullets will have velocity limits before fouling the barrel. Heavier bullets, especially 158 gr, will help keep it down. Harder bullets, Br 15 or more, would be indicated for the higher velocities, ultimately gas checks.

If you envision using the rifle in cowboy matches, it would need to hold 10 in the tube and be limited to 1400 fps.

RNFP is the intended bullet. Most of the others have a leading band at the base of the ogive that can hang up, when a cartridge is presented to the chamber at an angle. I use a truncated cone flat point 158 gr from Penn Bullets, because his have no leading band like Missouri or Rimrock, for examples. When in doubt, fall back to RNFP.

[Unclenick]

The truncated cone sounds like a good idea for feed, though I've shot a lot of bullets with shoulders that had no problem in my 1895 45-70.

Again, it isn't the velocity, per se, but how you get there that causes leading issues. The Late Richard Lee has a good write-up in the second edition of Modern Reloading on how to select alloys to avoid pressure corruption and shoot fast. It is also worth mentioning that gas checks will go a long way toward preventing a problem, too.

[Real Gun]

Yet limitations on lead bullets are always stated in terms of velocity. Maybe it's just an easier coincident to capture.

[TJB101]

Tons of powders out there for 357. I had 5lbs of 700x laying around. 5gr for 158gr anything produced a good training round for my kids. Tightgroup, Unique, Bluedot, even Bullseye will all work in a 357. H110, 2400 for some hotter loads. I have some 110gr FMJ projectiles screaming with H110. Its a great round to reload for. Lots of variations out there. Do a lot of research based on you bullet and powder choice.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Real Gun

Yet limitations on lead bullets are always stated in terms of velocity.

Yep. But it makes no abstract sense without a gun and barrel length and probably some measure of the bore condition and a powder being specified. For a given bore condition, it's peak pressure that is the main issue. That's when the bullet is under the most stress from the highest g's of acceleration both lengthwise and angularly against the rifling. Lots of folks fire the same cast bullet load in their 2½" to 8" revolvers and the leading is the same if the bores are in the same condition, but you know darn well they aren't getting the same velocity from both and that if they beefed up the 2½" load to get the same velocity the 8" barrel gets, leading could get serious.

Many also reduce or eliminate leading by improving the smoothness and straightness of their bores without altering velocity, which is another example of the velocity itself not being the determining factor. You can make those smooth bores start to lead, but it takes more pressure that results in more pressure.

In a similar vein, commercial Ammunition boxes give a velocity, but many people don't realize it only applies to a standard length SAAMI-type velocity and pressure barrel, and even among those, it is repeatable only within about a 3% span due to throat and headspace conditions shifting a bit with wear. When they buy chronographs, many are disappointed with what they are actually achieving as compared to what is printed on the box.

The bottom line is that for velocity to be a valid measure of a load's performance, be it a velocity or a leading problem, it needs to be stated with respect to a particular shooting system and especially barrel length, or, like ammunition box velocity not being what people get, they will experience leading at some other velocity.

[gwpercle]

Read the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (#4 I'm assuming) chapters 1 through 18 very carefully . This information , printed words and pictures are very informative and can save you a lot of grief .
Keep the manual close and refer to it often during each step of setting up dies and learning the proper procedures .
Don't be afraid to ask questions if you don't understand something .

I don't reload 357 for a rifle but have read the Lee 358-158-RF (round-flat) bullet will work through most lever actions with no problems . It would be my first choice . Every rifle is a law unto itself but a double cavity Lee mould is not expensive ... I have bought many simply to test out how a design will work.

In the model designation the C is for Carbine .
Gary

[Real Gun]

Bullets fall into categories and are usually not that specific about their application. Differences caused by an inch or two of barrel plus or minus would not usually take the bullet out of the running for the application. Numbers noted for the velocity differences are not very significant. Few are equipped to measure pressure but can do some calculation. If one notes a 10" barrel as part of the spec, then some significant difference in velocity should be expected. If one is aware that his gun's throats are tight, he should expect high pressure and should have concern about the bullet diameter.

I have long since noted that data for lead bullets uses the generalization that velocities should be subsonic, which would usually reduce or eliminate leading, unless bullets were too hard and would perform better at higher pressure (and velocity).

[44 AMP]

I have had a couple of these rifles over the years, still have one, great little carbines (what the "C" stands for) and a lot of fun. Recoil with .357s is very light and almost nonexistent with .38s.

They will feed everything BUT, they do have a quirk/glitch when it comes to SWC bullets. The lever has to be cycled at just the right speed or they will jam.

What happens is that, with SWC bullets (only) if the round gets bounced a bit on the carrier and isn't perfectly in line with the chamber the closing bolt will shove it into the edge of the chamber and the full caliber shoulder of the SWC bullet will hang up there, and not slide into the chamber.

The operational fix for this is simply back the lever off a tiny bit (DO NOT FORCE it FORWARD), back off, and the round will drop down into it proper place and will then feed smoothly into the chamber when you close the action.

Jacketed bullets and cast slugs without the shoulder of the SWC feed well. SWCs feed ok, once you learn the trick. Some folks apparently never have this issue with SWCs and if so, great. Both the guns I've had, decades apart, would misbehave with SWCs, unless handled just right.

Expect the rifle barrel to give you 400fps+ over the pistol and sometimes much more than that. This can be important if shooting jacketed bullets designed to expand.

The bullet designed to expand at 1600fps behaves differently at 2200fps!!

Top end loads need slow powder, 2400 is about the best, and fairly flexible. WW296 / H110 are also good, but sensitive to underloads.

Cases need to be uniform length for a consistent firm crimp. Tube magazine means a good crimp is needed for ALL loads, heavy or light. (also important for good combustion of slow powders)

The guns are built to work with standard length ammo, and it is possible to load rounds too long to feed through the action.

I've shot tons of cast 158 .38s loads (commercial cast bullets) without any leading issues. All my .357 stuff is jacketed, so I can't speak to leading with hot .357 cast bullets, sorry.

Its a great plinker and lethal small game rifle at closer ranges and with the RIGHT bullet will do for deer out to about 100yds, provided you're a good enough shot. IF deer is in the picture, do not use heavy loads with the 125gr JHP from the carbine. Those bullets are designed to expand at pistol speeds and at carbine speeds become somewhat "explosive". A good solidly constructed 158gr is a better choice for the carbine.

Here's a tip, when loading the magazine, don't push the rounds in with your finger. If you do, you will, at some point get pinched! Push the round in part way with your finger, ok but finish pushing it in with the nose of another round. (after years of getting pinched, I finally figured out how not to get pinched, and do this will my gate loading lever guns.)

They are great little carbines, and also, legal everywhere, unlike handguns and semi autos. Enjoy, and when you have questions (and, you will ), come back and ask them, we'll do our best to answer.

[mikld]

I'd suggest K.I.S.S. If you're new to reloading fid a good text on "how to", The ABCs of Reloading is probably the most popular, and it does hav info on cast bullets (the key to shooting cast bullets is bullet to gun fit, fitting the bullet diameter to the gun's chamber and/or groove diameter). If you're new to reloading I'd suggest a box of jacketed soft point or hollow point, a bit less involved. Then when you're comfortable with that, graduate to boolits. Find a load in your reloading manual before you buy any components (bullets, primers, powders), much less hassle finding data this way. Since the gun is designed for a handgun cartridge, just use handgun data for now, no big deal and only a few fps different with "rifle loads".

I have a 44 Magnum Puma and started reloading with my 44 Mag. handgun loads. After I got used to the gun I began trying slower powders to take advantage of the extra barrel length, but since I'm not hunting bear or hogs, a few fps faster bullet isn't necessary, and I often get better accuracy with lighter loads (I like 240 gr and 265 gr Ranch Dog RNFP)...

[lugerstew]

Thanks 44AMP, I will definitely try the loading the magazine trick, after several hundred rounds and quite a few pinches, I sometimes wish I would have bought a Henry that loads from the end, great advice, cant wait to try it.

[Real Gun]

Poker made with $3 worth of material from Walmart. Dowel was 5/16 (.3125). The knob came as a tight enough fit for just yellow glue. Really easy.

[zxcvbob]

Lee's 158 grain RNFP bullet is a good one. It's really more of a wide flat-nosed shape. Also, wadcutters work well in .357 brass, loaded with about 1/8" or so of the bullet protruding from the case (crimp in the top lube groove of a Lee microgroove or whatever they call it DEWC) Don't try to feed .38 Special wadcutters because they are too short and will jam.

If you want jacketed bullets, I'd use cheap hollowpoints.

[44 AMP]

Poker made with $3 worth of material from Walmart.

Nice tool, bet its handy. only down side is someday,, it might wander off when you want it. Ammo, on the other hand pushes in ammo just fine, and you always have some, until you load the last round you have...

If you want jacketed bullets, I'd use cheap hollowpoints.

If you're just plinking or destroying pests anything will do but if you're going to actually hunt something worthwhile, you don't want cheap bullets, you want the right bullet for the game and the range.

JHP bullets to expand and hold together within a range of velocities. Drop below the lower speed limit and they simply don't expand. Go past the upper end of the designed range and they expand too much and don't hold together, and the faster you go, the more extreme that result.

A hot load from a 6" pistol launches a 125gr in the 15-1600fps range, and the 158 at 13-1400fps.

The same load from the longer carbine barrel will be much faster, 125s can hit 2200fps and 158s, hit 1800s. This often is well past the upper designed speed for the bullet. Soft points, intended for less expansion at pistol speeds usually hold together better, and still expand a lot at carbine speeds.

Hard cast slugs don't care much about expansion at any speed, which is kind of the point to shooting them.

However, they aren't the right bullet for everything, especially if your aim sucks.

I saw a fellow do badly one time, both with his aim and choice of bullet.
Was called by a neighbor to dispatch a skunk. The fellow had shot it 3 times (all too far aft ) with a Marlin .357 carbine, and Winchester 158gr Luballoy ammo (great 158gr SWCs, stout load, doesn't expand in light animals at all, just zips right through) Wrong ammo for that job, even if he had been a better shot. Skunk was sent to the great beyond with one .45 Colt round to the head (but only because that was what I had on me at the time) A .22 would have worked, in the right spot.

[zxcvbob]

If you're just plinking or destroying pests anything will do but if you're going to actually hunt something worthwhile, you don't want cheap bullets, you want the right bullet for the game and the range.

That's all true. But the original post said, "And I'm reloading to save money and my rounds are just for plinking and fun." Hollowpoints should feed well, and are fine for a tubular magazine.

[J.W.Proctor]

Wow thanks for the many replys. Defiantly wanna avoid finger pinching if possible also some what disappointed in not catching the carbine thing earlier.

started reading the cast bullet hand book . Gotta say lots of good information but there are some things I'm not sure on for instance annealing and case trimming are they necessary for just plinking hand gun caliber rounds ?

I have started reloading recently for my 10mm Springfield xdm but those are all copper plated or jacketed. Lead loads seem to be a totally different animal.

I think before I dive into casting my own and investing in all the equipment (and expenses ) that goes with that I will try to work up some rounds using grenade bullets
I have heard Missouri is a popular brand and has a wide variety. I know someone mentioned Penn bullets so I'll have to check them out. Any other recommendations ?

I was leaning to the rnfp and was gonna do the 125 gr for 38 special and 158 for 357
But from what I'm hearing 158 should work well for both. virgin Starline Brass for both of course .sound doable ?

[J.W.Proctor]

*premade not grenade ... Silly auto correct ...always Making things sound more dangerous

[44 AMP]

.. for instance annealing and case trimming are they necessary for just plinking hand gun caliber rounds ?

Usually not. Annealing, almost never. Trimming? sometimes, but usually for uniformity of length in a batch, straight wall cases rarely grow longer.

Do check the length on your virgin brass and do size them as the first step in loading.

[SHR970]

Some notes on the Marlin 357 and lead bullets: SLUG your barrel! MicroGroove rifling has a rep for poor accuracy with lead. You have more lands but they are narrower AND the grooves are much shallower than "Ballard" rifling. HOWEVER there are ways to mitigate accuracy issues. First is use a bullet .002-.003" wider than the bore. Second depending on the alloy hardness you may find accuracy drop off in the 1500-1600 fps range and that is normal. Here is where you either go to a harder alloy, a slower powder, or both.

[Crunchy Frog]

I’m a cowboy action shooter. We use pistol caliber rifles in our game and the .38 Special is the most popular cartridge, in part because it’s relatively cheap to feed. We have to use lead bullets and as others have said. A pointed bullet is not a good idea in a tubular magazine.

The TCFP (truncated cone flat point) is a good bet for good feeding. The overall cartridge length is just as important and you need to see what your rifle likes. One friend had a Rossi 92 that didn’t like any .38 Special load he tried, so he used .357 cases and loaded them to .38 Special velocities. I handled a Marlin 1894C than ran my .38 Special cowboy loads just fine but absolutely refused to feed the .357 ammo I tried in it. One new shooter had a Uberti 1866 (chambered in .38 Special) that locked up with factory 158 grain round nose ammo but ran great with a cowboy load with a shorter bullet. In other words, be prepared to experiment a little.