Model 41 stove piping

[Walt Sherrill]

I'd take the gun, and a spent case to a local gunsmith, and have HIM look at it... and I'd take some .22 ammo with me, so he can test-fire it. Beats sending it back to the factory -- and unless S&W pays the shipping, it'll be cheaper, too. If they'll pay shipping, send them a couple of spent cases, too.

As I said earlier, I know NOTHING about S&W 41s, but I would think the extractor should be in CONTACT with the case rim until the casing hits the ejector.

I'd also compare the spent casing rim size with some other brand of ammo, to see whether the ammo might be out of spec.

[4V50 Gary]

Rough extraction will impede the slide. The slide still moves, but is slower. So, while the extractor is working hard to pull the empty out, it's not moving as fast as it should. This means the spent shell does not strike the ejector with as much energy as it should. If the slide is moving forward under the power of the slide spring, the shell may not have cleared the ejection port yet. Hence the stovepipe while the fresh shell is attempting to enter the chamber.

I'd clean the chamber first. Brass or copper stick with slot cut down the center to hold 400 grit emery paper. Mark the polishing stick so you don't go into the bore.

[Jim Watson]

My M41 extractor is SLIGHTLY closer to the front edge of the rim than in turtlehead's picture. The beak is against the side of the case above the rim.

Should not a blowback blow out the empty without an extractor? Beretta makes pocket pistols with no extractor at all.

[laytonj1]

Originally Posted by turtlehead

Attachment 105544

That's the best I can do at the moment. Should there be that much air in between the extractor and the top of the rim?

That is not correct. It should engage at the junction.
Did you order the Volquartsen extractor?

Jim

[laytonj1]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

My M41 extractor is SLIGHTLY closer to the front edge of the rim than in turtlehead's picture. The beak is against the side of the case above the rim.

Should not a blowback blow out the empty without an extractor? Beretta makes pocket pistols with no extractor at all.

The extractor has to hold the case with correct tension so the ejector can do it's job correctly.

Jim

[turtlehead]

I did order the VQ extractor but there may have been an issue with the order. Have not received confirmation and my account has not been charged. Will have to call them tomorrow.

That spacing does seem like the problem to me. Looking forward to seeing what the new extractor looks like in there. Polishing the chamber also sounds like a good idea. So I will do those two things first and see where it's at.

I'll post up a picture with the new extractor whenever it comes. Shouldn't take but a few minutes to install. Had hoped to receive it this week and test this weekend. But I guess not.

[turtlehead]

http://guntalk-online.com/Model41maintenance.htm

So it looks like "tuning" the extractor is basically bending the claw down to the correct height. Am I wrong?

[turtlehead]

VQ extractor came today. Hope to install it tomorrow or Friday and test the pistol this weekend. Will post up a picture when it's in. We'll see if the fit looks better.

[4V50 Gary]

Tuning an extractor could also be filing away at the part that rests against the slide. This causes the claw to reach deeper into rim.

Or it could be polishing the extractor face too, the areas to be polished dependent upon the contact desired with the rim.

[745SW]

"Smith 41's are extremely and notoriously fussy about the ammo they'll both shoot well and cycle the action using. And no 2 will shoot and cycle the same ammo."

I get the same issue with 2 5.5" High Standard Victor's. My guess is there's a slight difference with the chambers. One of these days I'm going to use a spent casing and expand the mouth so as to feel the length of the chambers.

Am lacks about 22LR because my focus has always been center-fire.

[turtlehead]

Just installed the new extractor. It rests against the junction of the case and rim. If anything, it may be a hair too tight. So thank you Gary for that advice. Filing the outside edge would back the claw off a bit.

Couldn't get a good pic illustrating the difference so here is a bad cell phone pic of the pistol. M41.jpg

Will be testing this weekend. I sure hope this works. Really believe I'm on the right track now.

Edit: The pic came out pretty nice.

[turtlehead]

UPDATE:

That was the problem. 200 rounds with no failures.

All I did was put in the VQ extractor. Nothing else.

[10-96]

Man, that's great! I'm glad you got it functioning right. Those things are a hoot once they run right, aren't they?

[turtlehead]

I can't even tell you how happy I am.

And with the red dot this thing is just cheating it's so easy to shoot well.

[gwpercle]

I just love a story with a happy ending !

[redlightrich]

Hello Turtlehead. I have been watching with great interest, as I have a fairly new Model 41. It is NOT a PC model, and I do think your is beautiful. It took me a year to get the standard variety one.

I was very concerned, as I found many posts that described what you did, FTC, FTE so on.

When I finished fixing the small flaws that my 41 had, I was amazed at how well it ran, and how it would eat whatever I fed it.

It would always choke on the first round of the day, then it ran so darn well!!!

I shoot it very accurately, and the trigger feels great. Somehow, the trigger feels better than other guns with the same weight break.

After I got about 600 rounds thru her, she started acting up. Same issue, fail to chamber, fail to eject, the ejecting round jammed on top of the chambering round. Sometimes, I pull the trigger and click, empty chamber. This is all with CCI SV ammo. And yes, it was cleaned out thoroughly, and rails were oiled.

It really was acting as if it were short stroking.

If I use HV ammo, the issue goes away. I tried the same ammo in my Ruger ( which is the most reliable and NOT ammo picky of any 22 auto I ever seen) and it had a stovepipe.
I was thinking that I had a bad box or lot of CCI SV (035 part number)

Anyway, in deciding to clean, and try a different lot of CCI, I noticed that my extractor was exactly how your was?
I also did the "plunk" test with several different rounds and was surprised how loose the chamber is. I don't care, as the gun is very accurate, but I was really surprised to find such a loose chamber on an expensive target gun.

If the extractor is the issue, why did it take over 600 rounds to show itself? Was the new spring keeping enough pressure to hold the round on the bolt? Now that it set it wont?

I will test again with new ammo, but the extractor is still sitting proud of the rim. This is not right. I am sure SW will send a new one, but it too will sit proud.

I can modify it based on the link you provided, but I would just buy the VQ part and move on.

Please report back after some more shooting time, so we ( especially me) can learn if this is the true fix.

I do apologize for asking a question in your thread, but I also think it will become helpful to other 41 owners who search in the future.

Thank you, good luck and kind regards

Rich

[turtlehead]

@redlightrich

I did the plunk test as well with different unfired cartridges and found the same results as you. The chamber did not seem to be tight with any of them. So I decided not to fuss with polishing the chamber and just went with replacing the extractor first.

So let's look at the OEM extractor and the VQ extractor. There is a big difference. Unfortunately I didn't have the foresight to take a picture of them side by side.

Here is a pic of my OEM extractor that was removed: M41OEMextractor.jpg

Here is a link to the VQ extractor: https://volquartsen.com/inventory_configurations/883

Note that the bottom of the claw on the OEM is angled slightly up. It almost seems that these are made this way and must be tuned for each gun.

Note the bottom of the claw on the VQ is angled down (toward the junction of the case and rim). You could say it is "pre-tuned". Read the description. It implies as much. Their extractor also appears to be of higher quality, hardness and tolerances than the original.

Could it be that your extractor rolled its edge due to the softer steel? That's one guess. I would recommend ordering the VQ.

I can tell you that I will probably NOT be doing the tuning on my OEM extractor. It's a pretty involved process. I have the tools to do it but it just isn't worth my time. What I WILL be doing is ordering another VQ extractor to keep as a spare (along with a few other parts).

Hope this helps.

[turtlehead]

A few more things to add...

As for choking on the first round of the day... Maybe that is where the mythical drop of oil on the first round of the first magazine could help. In all seriousness, I did swab my chamber with an oiled Q-Tip and then swabbed again with a dry Q-Tip afterward. I suppose that is my own version of the drop of oil trick. And now it will probably become an ongoing superstition for me...

As for following up on this thread... You bet. This is certainly not a victory lap. I will be reporting back. Unfortunately my range (Ben Avery) will be closed the next few weeks for berm maintenance.

[4V50 Gary]

I wish you did a side by side photo of them before you installed the VQ extractor. Measurements would be nice too.

Anyway, well done!

[turtlehead]

That would really show the difference. This payday I'll be ordering a spare VQ extractor and will get you that picture.

Quick summary for those not following too closely: I believe the OEM extractor was not gripping the rim tightly enough to the bolt face and the cases were falling off before they had a chance to hit the ejector.

[redlightrich]

Hello again Turtlehead ( I feel sort of disrespectful calling you that, however, none is meant)
Yesterday morning, I spent a little time checking batch numbers on my CCI ammo. I have a good amount of SV, for my target pistols and bolt rifles.

I did remember that immediatly prior to my 41's failures, I opened a new brick.

I now know have 2.5 bricks left with that batch number, and a bunch more of different lot numbers.

I grabbed my 41 and my 1911 Nelson conversion and went back to the range.

I tried the remaining CCI SV in my Nelson, and it wouldn't run. It was an exercise in clearing jambs. After 3 mags 1/2 mags of this, I took the remainder of the ammo in the mag, and dumped it into the dud can. Imagine that? Throwing out CCI ammo? I should have saved it for my bolt rifles, but I was getting annoyed. Lesson learned? All 22 ammo can be suspect, even the venerable CCI.

Then I took out a new batch number of CCI SV, and loaded up my SW 41, and lo and behold, it ran great. It didn't even choke on the first round? I went thru about 150 rounds without incident. No I didn't add oil. I refuse to unless it is a last resort.

My guess is with full power ammo, the extractor is doing very little work, basically holding the spent shell in place until it hits the ejector. But with a weaker round, where it really has to work, it fails.

I do see what you mean, as my extractor looks exactly like yours does. It is grabbing the side of the shell, not holding the rim as it should. I believe this issue is made worse, being the bolt is not as clearly defined as some other guns. There is a bit of slop where the rim sits. When testing the holding power of the extractor, a little wiggle, can shake the round off.
The better I get to know this gun, the more surprised I am by it's amazing accuracy. So much slop, yet it may be my most accurate pistol ( in my hands at least). Volquartsen vaguely describes the issue with the original part.

I don't care if Jim Clark himself told me to oil the first round. If a gun is right, that is the last thing I want to do. I try hard to keep oil away from these surfaces. Also, 22 ammo is plenty lubed from the factory. Maybe there is something to it, but to me, it defies logic.

I am ordering the VQ extractor. At a 12 dollar list price, I can simply put the original away and save it for someone to see it 50 years from now. I better put a note with it that says "junk, don't use"! If I were in a remote location, or so down on funds but up on time, I may try to "tune" it. Currently, I don't see the point.

When I decide to change it, I will take side by side photo's. I am not sure when exactly that will be, but some poor soul will find this thread in the future and their frustration will go away!!

Thank you for posting and sharing. It has helped me, and I am sure it will help others.

I will keep this thread updated as I find relevant facts. I am sorry. I am not hijacking your thread, I am trying to add to it.

Kind regards

Rich

[Jim Watson]

First shot.
Consider that the M41 was designed for NRA Conventional - now Precision - shooting in five shot strings, so the magazine would not be loaded full even though its nominal capacity is 10.

My main use for a good .22 is Speed Steel where you want some makeup shots on plates that seem to dodge.
MY M41 does OK with 10 but not 10+1. So I load 10, shoot the first string, and reload with 9 so as to not mash the stack of cartridges any deeper in the clip.

[10-96]

NRA Conventional... Ya know? it never even occurred to me that my 41 clip might hold more than 5 rounds. Never even tried it!

I used to shoot the Federal Auto Match, and had fairly good luck with it with only one or two duds out of the whole box. After the last ammo scare, I'm just about convinced the Auto Match quality took a bit of a dive. What I switched to was the Wolf and SK auto match rounds and they come with a oily type stuff already applied to the bullets. I don't know what it is- but it's slick enough to add a whole new degree of difficulty to loading.

I'm curious how the pre-lubed Wolf or SK would work for ya'll?

[turtlehead]

@redlightrich

I suspect most here miss the reference with my username... Probably for the best.

Seems like you have the same problem with the extractor as I did. Definitely get the VQ. Will say that I had to beat that bolt pin out with a real hammer and punch. It was in there pretty good. After that, very simple fix. Really is an easy gun to work on. There's no excuse for my 5 year procrastination.

Please feel free to add your experiences to this thread and I will continue to post updates.

[4V50 Gary]

When you do a side by side comparision, make note of the differences. You can even xerox the two side by side and have a pattern. Then modify the factory one to be closer to the VQH one. Install it and see if there's a difference.