'nother HD scenario

Gunter · December 7, 2001, 04:02 PM

You are home alone, upstairs, getting ready for bed when you hear a noise from the front door. You grab your gun and cover the staircase, and challenge the man coming up the stairs.

He stops, raises his hands in front of him and says "Hey man/lady, my car broke down; I saw your lights, it's ok, I just want to use your phone" continues slowly up stairs "Calm down, you don't need that gun; I just want to call someone to help me with my car".

What now?

Jayman · December 7, 2001, 04:04 PM

Use the command voice: STOP RIGHT THERE. Turn around and leave the house, I will call help for you. If you do not do this, you will be shot.

They keep moving, POP POP, POP. Merry X-Mas.

revolvergeek · December 7, 2001, 04:45 PM

Ditto Jayman. Order him to stop and get out, if he keeps advancing, well shame on him. Anyone who keeps advancing after that warning thinks that he is good enough to get the gun away from you.

CMichael · December 7, 2001, 06:42 PM

Order him to stop or you will shoot. If he advances shoot.

Tell him to stay where he is. Call the police. Have them sort it out.

Michael

Jay Baker · December 8, 2001, 12:50 AM

Gunter, let me get this straight. Do you go to bed at night without locking your front door??

If not, then according to your scenario, the guy has broken through your door and is coming at you.

If it were I, in that scenario where someone has broken through my door, that guy will end up in an autopsy room at the morgue, the instant I see him. He means to do harm to me and my family.

If I'd been so careless as to leave the door unlocked... the guy has absolutely no right to enter my home, anyway. If he takes one more step toward me..... see above solution.

J.B.

Tamara · December 8, 2001, 08:16 AM

...previous state of residence (GA), they went so far as to pass a law recently clarifying that anyone in your home at night without your permission was basically bought and paid for.

"STOP or I will SHOOT!"
He so much as sets one foot on the next higher stair, and...
*boom!**boom!**boom!**boom!*
Dial 911.

Dr.Rob · December 8, 2001, 04:39 PM

In Colorado thats a no brainer.. BANG BANG BANG.. since h'es gotten through my steel gate and my deadbolt.

Oh and in my house he'd be coming down the stairs.

Gunter · December 9, 2001, 08:25 AM

Any sane person who is really in need of help will stop/retreat when confronted with a weapon. If he continues the advance, this alone indicates his bad intentions.

Kharn · December 9, 2001, 08:52 AM

I'd tell him not to move, as that would only piss off the dogs that would be trying to eat his *** whole.

Kharn

C.R.Sam · December 9, 2001, 09:54 AM

He is in your house, advancing on you, refusing to stop.

He is a target.

Sam

coz · December 9, 2001, 11:09 AM

Darn, it's gonna be hard to get all that blood off the stairs and the big pool of gore in the entryway where he ends up laying until the police show up...

ronjeremy · December 9, 2001, 05:20 PM

If he was coming down my hall after getting past my deadblots I would have to say he would be DRT. Then call the police and tell them to come and bring Ambulance. Probable accomplice in the house or leaving in the so called 'broken down car". No one could be so friggin dumb.

Norman Bates · December 10, 2001, 06:58 AM

I'm not bound by the same laws that you are but, regardless of that, the fact remains that the scenario described is way too close for comfort and the intruder is already in too deep.

You're reacting and you're reacting too slow. Had the guy had any good intentions, he would have announced himself by yelling a lot once he gained access to your home, he didnt'!

If he was as innoncent as he pretends, by yelling he would have scared you but also let you know that he was there and what his intentions were. you could have taken some measures previous to meet him and maybe under your conditions and not his, none of this happened.

You don't let these people have the initiative or you take it away from them at the first opportunity. If the guy is carrying a gun when you confront him, he will be able to shoot you before you let him have it. He'll be acting, you'll be reacting.

I'd let the intruder have a taste of my gun's load and then conduct my own stopping power evaluation test on his a$$. Then call 911 to have the body removed.

NB

NikonShooter · December 11, 2001, 03:14 AM

I would shine a tac light in his face, take aim, and prepare for the worst, hope for the best. I would challenge him, just like many of the others, some thing to the tune of "Stop there, if you move forward i shoot", quick, simple. If he moves forward, double tap center mass. My wife would have already called the cops too.

Hemicuda · December 11, 2001, 09:28 AM

then, if he advances even a bit, he'll get shot, no iffs, ands, or butts...

he BROKE IN to call for help? yeah, right...

he is coming UPSTAIRS to find a phone? yeah, Right...

I warn him once, and he keeps advancing, only wanting to call for help? yeah, right...

he is up to alot more than "calling for help" and the only help for him at that point, is a 12 Ga. round to the cranium...

striderteen · December 14, 2001, 01:40 AM

Hmm...I would definitely go with "shoot first, ask questions later" -- anyone in my house is definitely hostile, having broken through a deadbolt. I don't have stairs, though.

However, what's this about firing at the center of mass? My copy of U.S. Army Field Manual FM-10-90 Appendix K, "Close Quarters Combat Techniques", states (with labelled diagram) that "The only shot placement that guarantees immediate and total incapacitation is one roughly centered in the face, below the middle of the forehead, and above the upper lip. Shots to the side of the head above the horizontal line passing through the ear opening to just below the crown of the skull and from the cheekbones rearward to the occipital lobe are also effective." It does, however, agree that you should double-tap, even with an burst/automatic-fire-capable assault rifle.

Gunter · December 14, 2001, 10:49 AM

That manual is for people in the profession of killing people and breaking things, armed with appropriate tools and (hopefully) trained to hit what they aim for. And additionally not concerned about criminal and civil charges for "executing" someone, or issues of overpenetration.

I generally don't have my rifle on me in the house, and am not so trained in shooting at moving targets and would like to answer
the Question "why did you shoot him in the head" with "because the shots to the body didn't seem to be working".

ankara36 · December 14, 2001, 11:22 AM

Let's see. It's at night so he defeated my dead bolt. He then didn't move for the phone in the kitchen. And since he's coming up the stairs, it means he did something to take out my 120+lb. Newfoundland/Dalmation mixed breed.

The next sound is me emptying the clip from my USP .45 into his chest, followed by the *thump* *bump* *crash* of him falling backwards down the stairs.

Bartholomew Roberts · December 14, 2001, 11:55 AM

This scenario is actually fairly similar to a shooting that took place several years ago in North Texas (as related to me in a CCW class I was in).

A doctor and his wife had decided to stay a few extra days at their lake house instead of leaving. They awake in the middle of the night to hear sounds of stuff crashing about. The doctor gets his handgun (believe it was a Beretta 92) and goes to check out the noise. He's slicing the pie and using good tactics and spots a man walking down the hallway towards him at about 10-15yds with a gun in one hand and eating a sandwich (made from stuff in the doctor's refrigerator) in the other.

The doctor takes cover behind the door jamb and has the guy lined up nicely with minimal exposure of himself - guy still doesn't see him. He decides to issue a verbal warning of "Stop right there!". Before he has finished "Stop" the guy is shooting back over his head while running away - both doctor and bad guy empty their mags with no hits. Bad guy escapes.

Doctor goes to check on wife who was calling 911 and she is screaming and bleeding quite a bit from the forehead. Luckily, it turns out it isn't from a bullet wound but a large splinter of wood that was driven into her forehead by a bullet striking part of the bed. Still, it gives you a pretty stomach-churning idea of what the consequences of a verbal warning might be.

The key difference here is the absence of a visible weapon. Based on that, if the door was locked and the guy had to break it down to get in, I'm firing. He got all the warning he is going to get when he chose to bypass the lock. Besides I live in Texas and down here we take a civilized view on self-defense.

If there is any reason to think he entered through an open door, I give him the "Stop! Show me your hands!" while S/O calls police. Failure to immediately comply = getting shot.

striderteen · December 14, 2001, 01:33 PM

"That manual is for people in the profession of killing people and breaking things, armed with appropriate tools and (hopefully) trained to hit what they aim for. And additionally not concerned about criminal and civil charges for "executing" someone, or issues of overpenetration. "

Still. Presumably, they know what they're talking about...and if I'm going to shoot someone in self-defense, a shot that "guarantees immediate and total incapacitation" is definitely better than one that doesn't.

Further, the skull is the most solid bony structure in the human body, and therefore is best suited to preventing overpenetration of a bullet.

LASur5r · December 14, 2001, 02:55 PM

Since I live in soCal, probably the law allows us to throw up our hands and yell, "Help me! Help me!....Stop it! Stop iiiiTTTTTTT!" This is of course after we've already dialed 911, and got them on the phone....after that is recorded, we plug the BG.

striderteen · December 14, 2001, 03:14 PM

I live in SoCal myself...and I'll be damned if I rely on the cops. Don't get me wrong, I respect the police department a LOT -- I have friends on the force, and I appreciate the fact that they're putting their lives on the line every day when they go to work -- but when it comes to protecting myself, I'll go with the "buy a gun and do it myself" paradigm.

Police are for catching criminals.

BogBabe · December 14, 2001, 05:23 PM

I'd prefer to give a verbal warning to him to stop.

But if the guy's already IN my house and coming UP my stairs, I'm not sure I'd risk even the few moments that would take. He could be at at the top of the stairs by the time I got out the words "STOP NOW OR I'LL SHOOT."

No good guy enters my house (whether door is locked or not) and climbs my stairs uninvited. In my book (and in my house) he's a bad guy and I'm not taking any chances.

CWL · December 14, 2001, 08:27 PM

Don't forget that this guy may have friends downstairs.

Striderteen, hitting moving headsized objects at 15 yards are not as easy as it may seem. If you've never been there, you never know what you will acually do.
Army and tactical training manuals are meant as supplemental sources of information, don't think that you'll learn everything from out of a book.

1goodshot · December 14, 2001, 08:33 PM

If he's already in my house the dogs would be on him. I'd let them do there thing while I covered him and called 911

December 7, 2001, 04:02 PM	#1
Gunter Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 279	'nother HD scenario You are home alone, upstairs, getting ready for bed when you hear a noise from the front door. You grab your gun and cover the staircase, and challenge the man coming up the stairs. He stops, raises his hands in front of him and says "Hey man/lady, my car broke down; I saw your lights, it's ok, I just want to use your phone" continues slowly up stairs "Calm down, you don't need that gun; I just want to call someone to help me with my car". What now?

December 7, 2001, 04:04 PM	#2
Jayman Member Join Date: October 15, 2001 Location: Chantilly, VA Posts: 20	Use the command voice: STOP RIGHT THERE. Turn around and leave the house, I will call help for you. If you do not do this, you will be shot. They keep moving, POP POP, POP. Merry X-Mas. __________________ Jayman http://www.supermegajayman.com

December 8, 2001, 08:16 AM	#6
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	In my... ...previous state of residence (GA), they went so far as to pass a law recently clarifying that anyone in your home at night without your permission was basically bought and paid for. "STOP or I will SHOOT!" He so much as sets one foot on the next higher stair, and... boom!boom!boom!boom! Dial 911. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

December 8, 2001, 04:39 PM	#7
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	In Colorado thats a no brainer.. BANG BANG BANG.. since h'es gotten through my steel gate and my deadbolt. Oh and in my house he'd be coming down the stairs. __________________ You broke into the wrong Rec Room!

December 9, 2001, 11:09 AM	#11
coz Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2001 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 261	Darn, it's gonna be hard to get all that blood off the stairs and the big pool of gore in the entryway where he ends up laying until the police show up... __________________ Coz "Yes officer it's loaded, wouldn't be very useful as a throwing weapon now would it?"

December 7, 2001, 04:45 PM	#3
revolvergeek Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2001 Posts: 289	Ditto Jayman. Order him to stop and get out, if he keeps advancing, well shame on him. Anyone who keeps advancing after that warning thinks that he is good enough to get the gun away from you.

December 7, 2001, 06:42 PM	#4
CMichael Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Location: MI Posts: 1,516	Order him to stop or you will shoot. If he advances shoot. Tell him to stay where he is. Call the police. Have them sort it out. Michael

December 8, 2001, 12:50 AM	#5
Jay Baker Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2000 Location: S.W. Idaho Posts: 1,294	Gunter, let me get this straight. Do you go to bed at night without locking your front door?? If not, then according to your scenario, the guy has broken through your door and is coming at you. If it were I, in that scenario where someone has broken through my door, that guy will end up in an autopsy room at the morgue, the instant I see him. He means to do harm to me and my family. If I'd been so careless as to leave the door unlocked... the guy has absolutely no right to enter my home, anyway. If he takes one more step toward me..... see above solution. J.B.

December 9, 2001, 08:25 AM	#8
Gunter Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 279	Any sane person who is really in need of help will stop/retreat when confronted with a weapon. If he continues the advance, this alone indicates his bad intentions.

December 9, 2001, 08:52 AM	#9
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	I'd tell him not to move, as that would only piss off the dogs that would be trying to eat his *** whole. Kharn

December 9, 2001, 09:54 AM	#10
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	He is in your house, advancing on you, refusing to stop. He is a target. Sam

December 9, 2001, 05:20 PM	#12
ronjeremy Junior Member Join Date: December 8, 2001 Location: South Posts: 5	If he was coming down my hall after getting past my deadblots I would have to say he would be DRT. Then call the police and tell them to come and bring Ambulance. Probable accomplice in the house or leaving in the so called 'broken down car". No one could be so friggin dumb.

December 10, 2001, 06:58 AM	#13
Norman Bates Member Join Date: October 10, 2001 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 87	I'm not bound by the same laws that you are but, regardless of that, the fact remains that the scenario described is way too close for comfort and the intruder is already in too deep. You're reacting and you're reacting too slow. Had the guy had any good intentions, he would have announced himself by yelling a lot once he gained access to your home, he didnt'! If he was as innoncent as he pretends, by yelling he would have scared you but also let you know that he was there and what his intentions were. you could have taken some measures previous to meet him and maybe under your conditions and not his, none of this happened. You don't let these people have the initiative or you take it away from them at the first opportunity. If the guy is carrying a gun when you confront him, he will be able to shoot you before you let him have it. He'll be acting, you'll be reacting. I'd let the intruder have a taste of my gun's load and then conduct my own stopping power evaluation test on his a$$. Then call 911 to have the body removed. NB __________________ Mother says i should stick to knives! Leather by www.haugenhandgunleather.com/

December 11, 2001, 03:14 AM	#14
NikonShooter Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Posts: 16	I would shine a tac light in his face, take aim, and prepare for the worst, hope for the best. I would challenge him, just like many of the others, some thing to the tune of "Stop there, if you move forward i shoot", quick, simple. If he moves forward, double tap center mass. My wife would have already called the cops too.

December 11, 2001, 09:28 AM	#15
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	One verbal warning... then, if he advances even a bit, he'll get shot, no iffs, ands, or butts... he BROKE IN to call for help? yeah, right... he is coming UPSTAIRS to find a phone? yeah, Right... I warn him once, and he keeps advancing, only wanting to call for help? yeah, right... he is up to alot more than "calling for help" and the only help for him at that point, is a 12 Ga. round to the cranium... __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

December 14, 2001, 01:40 AM	#16
striderteen Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2001 Location: Pasadena, California Posts: 590	Hmm...I would definitely go with "shoot first, ask questions later" -- anyone in my house is definitely hostile, having broken through a deadbolt. I don't have stairs, though. However, what's this about firing at the center of mass? My copy of U.S. Army Field Manual FM-10-90 Appendix K, "Close Quarters Combat Techniques", states (with labelled diagram) that "The only shot placement that guarantees immediate and total incapacitation is one roughly centered in the face, below the middle of the forehead, and above the upper lip. Shots to the side of the head above the horizontal line passing through the ear opening to just below the crown of the skull and from the cheekbones rearward to the occipital lobe are also effective." It does, however, agree that you should double-tap, even with an burst/automatic-fire-capable assault rifle.

December 14, 2001, 10:49 AM	#17
Gunter Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 279	That manual is for people in the profession of killing people and breaking things, armed with appropriate tools and (hopefully) trained to hit what they aim for. And additionally not concerned about criminal and civil charges for "executing" someone, or issues of overpenetration. I generally don't have my rifle on me in the house, and am not so trained in shooting at moving targets and would like to answer the Question "why did you shoot him in the head" with "because the shots to the body didn't seem to be working".

December 14, 2001, 11:22 AM	#18
ankara36 Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Posts: 257	Let's see. It's at night so he defeated my dead bolt. He then didn't move for the phone in the kitchen. And since he's coming up the stairs, it means he did something to take out my 120+lb. Newfoundland/Dalmation mixed breed. The next sound is me emptying the clip from my USP .45 into his chest, followed by the thump bump crash of him falling backwards down the stairs.

December 14, 2001, 11:55 AM	#19
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	This scenario is actually fairly similar to a shooting that took place several years ago in North Texas (as related to me in a CCW class I was in). A doctor and his wife had decided to stay a few extra days at their lake house instead of leaving. They awake in the middle of the night to hear sounds of stuff crashing about. The doctor gets his handgun (believe it was a Beretta 92) and goes to check out the noise. He's slicing the pie and using good tactics and spots a man walking down the hallway towards him at about 10-15yds with a gun in one hand and eating a sandwich (made from stuff in the doctor's refrigerator) in the other. The doctor takes cover behind the door jamb and has the guy lined up nicely with minimal exposure of himself - guy still doesn't see him. He decides to issue a verbal warning of "Stop right there!". Before he has finished "Stop" the guy is shooting back over his head while running away - both doctor and bad guy empty their mags with no hits. Bad guy escapes. Doctor goes to check on wife who was calling 911 and she is screaming and bleeding quite a bit from the forehead. Luckily, it turns out it isn't from a bullet wound but a large splinter of wood that was driven into her forehead by a bullet striking part of the bed. Still, it gives you a pretty stomach-churning idea of what the consequences of a verbal warning might be. The key difference here is the absence of a visible weapon. Based on that, if the door was locked and the guy had to break it down to get in, I'm firing. He got all the warning he is going to get when he chose to bypass the lock. Besides I live in Texas and down here we take a civilized view on self-defense. If there is any reason to think he entered through an open door, I give him the "Stop! Show me your hands!" while S/O calls police. Failure to immediately comply = getting shot.

December 14, 2001, 01:33 PM	#20
striderteen Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2001 Location: Pasadena, California Posts: 590	"That manual is for people in the profession of killing people and breaking things, armed with appropriate tools and (hopefully) trained to hit what they aim for. And additionally not concerned about criminal and civil charges for "executing" someone, or issues of overpenetration. " Still. Presumably, they know what they're talking about...and if I'm going to shoot someone in self-defense, a shot that "guarantees immediate and total incapacitation" is definitely better than one that doesn't. Further, the skull is the most solid bony structure in the human body, and therefore is best suited to preventing overpenetration of a bullet.

December 14, 2001, 02:55 PM	#21
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Personally Since I live in soCal, probably the law allows us to throw up our hands and yell, "Help me! Help me!....Stop it! Stop iiiiTTTTTTT!" This is of course after we've already dialed 911, and got them on the phone....after that is recorded, we plug the BG.

December 14, 2001, 03:14 PM	#22
striderteen Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2001 Location: Pasadena, California Posts: 590	I live in SoCal myself...and I'll be damned if I rely on the cops. Don't get me wrong, I respect the police department a LOT -- I have friends on the force, and I appreciate the fact that they're putting their lives on the line every day when they go to work -- but when it comes to protecting myself, I'll go with the "buy a gun and do it myself" paradigm. Police are for catching criminals.

December 14, 2001, 05:23 PM	#23
BogBabe Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2001 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 565	I'd prefer to give a verbal warning to him to stop. But if the guy's already IN my house and coming UP my stairs, I'm not sure I'd risk even the few moments that would take. He could be at at the top of the stairs by the time I got out the words "STOP NOW OR I'LL SHOOT." No good guy enters my house (whether door is locked or not) and climbs my stairs uninvited. In my book (and in my house) he's a bad guy and I'm not taking any chances. __________________ "We are free not for the collective, not for utility, not for practicality, not for beauty or divinity or dignity or art. We are free because we cannot be otherwise, ever, no matter what. We are free because we cannot be chained by anyone without our consent." --Greg Swann, Let 'em eat steak

December 14, 2001, 08:27 PM	#24
CWL Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2001 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,576	Don't forget that this guy may have friends downstairs. Striderteen, hitting moving headsized objects at 15 yards are not as easy as it may seem. If you've never been there, you never know what you will acually do. Army and tactical training manuals are meant as supplemental sources of information, don't think that you'll learn everything from out of a book.

December 14, 2001, 08:33 PM	#25
1goodshot Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2001 Location: chandler,az Posts: 929	If he's already in my house the dogs would be on him. I'd let them do there thing while I covered him and called 911

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