W231 powder real dirty ?

[rebs]

I loadeed 50 rounds of 38 with a 158 gr lswc and 4.0 gr of W231. Afetr 50 rounds my hands were black and my gun was covered also. Did this load contribute to the dirtyness or is this powder just that dirty ?

[Rifleman1776]

I have used a lot of it. Don't make a practice of getting any powder on my hands. Never noticed it being especially dirty. And, I use a lot of black powder. I KNOW what dirty is.

[NoSecondBest]

I've shot literally thousands of loads out of my target gun with 231 powder and a 160g semi wad cutter. I've never noticed any dirty hands or gun. I used 4.5g in a 357 case since my gun was a 357 and I didn't want a ring in the chambers. This was always my most accurate load out of both my target guns. Try upping the charge and make sure you have a good crimp on it. You can also try a hotter primer. Just don't go over published data for the gun and load.

[Mike Irwin]

I suspect that the biggest part of your problems was the lube on the bullets. I've noticed significant differences in the amount of "dirt" with 231 (and other powders) depending on the kind of bullet lube.

[mnoirot64]

Originally Posted by nosecondbest

I used 4.5g in a 357 case since my gun was a 357 and I didn't want a ring in the chambers.

This is actually a great idea. I used a very similar powder/bullet combination. Using 38 special cases, I ended up with heavy rings inside the chambers. It is no fun to clean. That said, I believe most of your issue is with the lube on the cast bullets. I have switched to jacketed bullets in the hope that I will not have to deal with this again.

[Nick_C_S]

4.0g W213 under a 158g LSWC is one of my pet loads. Although it's a round I don't shoot often these days, I don't recall it ever being that dirty.

Like Mike said, I suspect the bullet lube is the culprit.

As far as using 357 cases - you can. It has some drawbacks though. First, it's not as economical. You need more powder to do the same job. Second, the powder basically behaves slower due to the increase in internal volume, thus increasing the chances more powder residue. Third, and for the same reason, it has the potential to make for less consistent rounds.

Lots of extra internal case space is not good for consistency. It's amazing 38 target rounds are as consistent as the are, given all the extra internal volume. Using 357 Mag cases only exacerbates this condition.

Personally, cleaning the cylinder rings is not that big of a deal. I put the brush to the charge holes when I clean the gun anyway - just have to do it a little longer, that's all. I do wish they made a "38 only" cylinder you could drop into 357 guns though - that'd be neat.

The beauty of loading your own is that you get to make that choice. And you will make the right choice - for you.

[mxjunky78]

As others have mentioned, I believe your issue lies in the bullet lube more so than the powder. I use 231 for my .40 loads in an auto and it's been very clean burning for me using plated bullets and even lead bullets.

[buck460XVR]

I too suspect lube. Many times with W231, I also find that a dirty load cleans up as you increase the charge.

[mete]

The popular powder for magnums used to be 2400. It was very dirty. After a silhouette match ,having fired 200 rnds with Blue Dot I showed them my M29 -so clean they wouldn't believe me .You could never burn all of the 2400.

[NoSecondBest]

As far as using 357 cases - you can. It has some drawbacks though. First, it's not as economical. You need more powder to do the same job. Second, the powder basically behaves slower due to the increase in internal volume, thus increasing the chances more powder residue. Third, and for the same reason, it has the potential to make for less consistent rounds.

Lots of extra internal case space is not good for consistency. It's amazing 38 target rounds are as consistent as the are, given all the extra internal volume. Using 357 Mag cases only exacerbates this condition.

Personally, cleaning the cylinder rings is not that big of a deal. I put the brush to the charge holes when I clean the gun anyway - just have to do it a little longer, that's all. I do wish they made a "38 only" cylinder you could drop into 357 guns though - that'd be neat.

Having shot countless thousands of this round in my 357mag target guns I'd respectfully have to disagree with the notion that there is a difference in accuracy using the 357 case over the 38 case. Both of my custom built revolvers would shoot one ragged hole off sandbags at twenty-five yards with this load and do it on a very consistent and regular basis. I'm not sure what condition is being exacerbated. A lot of competition shooters do this and all the ones I talked to have never noticed a difference/loss in accuracy. As far as cost goes.....you get 1750 shots from a pound of powder using 4.0g and 1550 shots using 4.5g of powder. Yes, there is a difference in cost but it's ridiculously insignificant.

[WESHOOT2]

No, W231 is, IME, fairly 'clean'.

[Yokoman]

I have only loaded 1K rnds but i dont find it dirty at all.

[Nick_C_S]

I'd respectfully have to disagree with the notion that there is a difference in accuracy using the 357 case over the 38 case.

I didn't say there was a difference in accuracy. I said "it has the potential to make less consistent rounds." I have no idea if the practice yields less accurate rounds or not in actual practice - I've never gone down that road to test it.

I also went on to say that is it up to the loader to choose, and the loader will make the right choice - for them.

[LE-28]

If you load in the upper end of the load data with 231 you loads will be no dirtier than with most of the powders on the market.

Shooting lead is the reason your gun and hands was so dirty as compared to shooting jacketed. Tumble lube is better than the wax-lanolin lube as far as dirt but it is still dirty.
You may want to try shooting plated bullets, they don't generate all the dirt that lead bullets do whether it's from the lead or the lube.

That or just except it as the price for shooting at 1/2 the cost of copper plated or jacketed bullets.

[NoSecondBest]

I didn't say there was a difference in accuracy. I said "it has the potential to make less consistent rounds." I have no idea if the practice yields less accurate rounds or not in actual practice - I've never gone down that road to test it.

I'm confused then. Why would you even suggest it if you have no idea if it's true or not. I guess when I read your post I took it as though you were stating a fact as you believed it.

[rebs]

I shot rounds loaded with Bullseye that were much cleaner using the same bullets. The dirt I am talking about is like carbon dark gray almost black. I am shooting Mastercast lswc bullets, what brand bullets are you guys shooting ?

[Marco Califo]

Certain powders do not burn dirty. Certain loads and resulting insufficient pressure, outside the powders best uses, will leave soot. Bullseye burns fast and clean in pistol cartridges. Slower powders leave soot unless you use heavy bullets, heavy loads, crimps, magnum primers, etc.

[Nick_C_S]

Certain powders do not burn dirty. Certain loads and resulting insufficient pressure, outside the powders best uses, will leave soot.

Well stated Marco Califo.

Notoriously "dirty" powders, such as Blue Dot and HS-6 are quite clean when they are loaded to the correct amounts for their intended purpose.

From personal experience: 357Mag/125g HP - when I started at 9.5g of HS-6, the round was filthy and inconsistent. By the time I got to 10.5g, it was running fairly clean; and when I finally "set" the load at 11.2g, it was running as clean as one can realistically expect with any propellant. (Speer #14 runs from 10.0g - 11.3g; so other than the underloading of 9.5g, these loads are in compliance.)

I also have personal experience with Blue Dot leaving behind outright unburned powder flakes, but it's been so many years, I don't recall the recipe(s). What I do remember is that BD behaves much better with heavy bullets. I don't load with BD any more; it just doesn't fit my loading/shooting style.

[Marco Califo]

Blue Dot is great for 1.5 oz+ magnum loads at top velocities in 12 gauge. It will bruise your shoulder if you aren't careful.
But put it in a 9mm, and you will likely have some residue.

[mnoirot64]

Originally Posted by Marco_Califo

Slower powders leave soot unless you use heavy bullets, heavy loads, crimps, magnum primers, etc.

This is dead on target. I was having trouble with No. 5 burning "dirty" in 38 special with cast lead bullets. I was loading light rounds for my girlfriend. This powder, as many others, was very dirty at the bottom end of the powder recipe. Loading near the top end, with 158 grain bullet and applying a moderate crimp cleaned it up a great deal. That said, I still made the decision to start using jacketed bullets in my wheel guns. Getting rid of the cast lead, got rid of the necessary lube, and cleaned things up significantly more, IMHO.

[Nick_C_S]

I was having trouble with No. 5 burning "dirty" in 38 special with cast lead bullets. I was loading light rounds for my girlfriend.

Yeah, I can see that happening. The "girlfriend rounds" would have ran much cleaner with AA No.2; it's better suited for light rounds.

[m&p45acp10+1]

Rebs if you can find some IMR Trail Boss it is the cat's own hind end for a clean powder in .38 Special. It is my go to powder. No other powder is as clean with low pressure target loads (I mean that not a single one is as clean.) I have some 231 I had to use during the shortage till Trail Boss found its way to the shelf of the LGS. I then bought 4 cans to hold me for a few months.

If you up the charge to still within published safe loads it does clean up a good bit though.

[rebs]

I think I found the reason my 231 loads were so dirty. I checked my digital scale against my rcbs beam scale and found the digital was under by one grain, meaning when I thought I was loading 4.0 of 231 I was actually loading 3.0 grains. After reading the posts in this thread I am going to load a few more with using the beam scale and load at 4.0. I am loading in 357 cases so maybe I should be at 4.5 grains of 231 ?

[Stavman11]

hey Bob

I am loading 4.6gr of W231 in my .38s Rounds..

Both LWS and RN Bullets..... Really Like the Load... also shoots GREAT in my Henry Rifle...

so 4.5gr is a good Spot ta try