Noob with a ? imr4350 stick and flake?

[Coloradocent]

Hello everyone,
Even though I've read a ton of posts on here this is my first time posting a question.. I recently picked up a can of imr4350 and it's mixed with stick powder and flake. The last bottle I used was only stick but it was a bit older than the one I just bought. I wanted to see if my powder is fine or if there was a problem somewhere in the plant. I called Hodgen but the rep was more defensive than helpful. Any ideas why my powder is mixed?

[steve4102]

Never seen that myself, gotta picture?

[HiBC]

OK,you say you are a noob.

A rule to live by:Never,ever buy or otherwise use a can of powder that has been opened.Factory. sealed only!!

I assume you are talking H-4350.The same applies to IMR4350.It is a stick powder,Period.No mix of flake.

From what you say,you have a contaminated batch of powder.

Good rule #2.Only have one kind of powder out on your bench...the one you are using.If you have Accurate# 5 out,loading handgun ammo,and you leave it in the powder measure....

Then lateryou get out your 4350 to load 30-06,and oh,gosh,there is powder in the hopper!!So,two open jugs on the bench,the Accurate #5 gets accidently dumped in the 4350,or,you forgot what powder was in the hopper.

Empty the hopper when you are done.

My practice:If I leave any powder in the hopper,even if I'm "sure" what I was loading,I dump it.It goes on the lawn.

When the gun blows up,you will wonder who to blame,the gun,or Hogdon.

No!!Use laboratory practice!!Read labels twice,outloud.Maintain material tracability,etc.

That is all we need to know.Scatter it on your lawn.To shoot it will be disaster.I do not know of any rifle powder in the slow rifle burn zone that is flake.Flake is handgun or shotgun powder.Fast burning.If you load it in a rifle load that calls for 4350 you will beak things and get hurt.

If you bought that at a gun store as new powder,then communicate it and begin an investigation.It has occurred that radical antigun store empoyees have cross contaminated powder to cause havoc .
Hogdon may want to do that.Offer to send them the powder,clearly marked "contaminated,do not use"

Best is to buy your powder from a dealer who keeps the powder in a back room and you ask for it.

DO NOT SHOOT OR LOAD THAT POWDER.DO NOT LEAVE IT AROUND AS A TICKING TIME BOMB.

[Bart B.]

Take that powder back to whomever you got it from. Politely ask for a refund.

[Coloradocent]

I am noob... I've been hand loading for about a year and a half but I'm an absolute freak when it comes to being safe. When I opened the can the white seal paper was there but it came off with the lid so I'm not sure if they wad my doing or if it had been opened. I'm trying to uploada picture but it's not attaching. I'll post it from my comport later.

[Coloradocent]

And since I wasn't happy with the company's response I prayed on here before I tested my loads. Sounds like I'm heading to cabelas.

[Slamfire]

Good God! A can of H4350 had flakes in it, and it was store bought!


Somewhere, somehow, that powder was mixed with another. Whatever powder was mixed would dramatically change the pressure curve and the best advice was already given: take it back.

[AllenJ]

I agree with everything posted above. No use taking any chances, this is not first time I've heard of powder being mixed. In the store, was the powder on a shelf that customers had access to or was it behind the counter?

[Unclenick]

Coloradocent,

Welcome to the forum.

This isn't the first post we've had from someone buying a can of mixed powder. The last time a post covered this topic, the fellow who'd bought the powder had reported it to the powder company or its distributor (can't recall which one) and was told it was clearly contaminated. He then told the store owner who, IIRC, was then mad at the customer for ratting him out to the powder company (or distributor). Apparently the fellow just couldn't appreciate he'd possibly been spared from a nasty law suit.

Good catch. No question they sold you a can someone had ruined. It could be intentional sabotage by someone angry at the store, like a fired employee, or by someone who is an anti-gun extremist or a sociopathic prankster. At a gun show near here, twenty-odd years ago, someone slip live .22 ammo into guns all around the show. One gun discharged into the ceiling, leading to trigger locking with wire ties at the door at future shows. Gander mountain has a no-return policy on powder, primers, and ammunition. Any one of them can be fiddled and cause a disaster. So it should not have been a customer return.

Usually you can tell whether the plastic seal on top has been previously broken or not because the glue is usually good enough that it tears the seal around the perimeter of the mouth of the can. But not every time, obviously. Also not if someone did it intentionally with a single edge razor cut.

I can't explain Hodgdon's reaction to you over the phone. I'd think they'd want that can off the street, too, but I've found them defensive and cantankerous before, though in a completely different matter.

My recommendation would be that you write Gander Mountain HQ, and let them know about the incident. Let them investigate and see if they can figure out whether it happened in their store or if it happened somewhere along the way and see if they can find a way to prevent it. They may want to ask their stores to check for broken seals on powder.

[Coloradocent]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I called Cabelas and even though there are legal restrictions on returning powder, they're going to make an exception. They said they would have checked all of their powder to make sure they haven't been opened but their shelves are empty. I founda can of h4350 so I guess I'll be working on a new load. again. .. Thanks for all of the help!

[Coloradocent]

I just reread uncle's reply and while I'm not shocked... It's sad that someone would be that crazy/stupid. Hopefully they figured out who did it...

[LE-28]

Hmm, IMR 4350 stick and flake.

I'm really glad you ask about this here. This powder is clearly mixed and I doubt that it was mixed at the factory.

As everyone else said, don't use it, it's contaminated.

WOW, I would find somewhere else to shop. I like my mom and pop LGS I buy all my supplies from. They watch everything in the store like a hawk and I feel more secure buying from them then buying from a store where everything has been paw'd over, opened, and/or compromised. Cabelas is doing the right thing by making an exception to their no return policy.
YIKES! Really glad you asked the forum before using it.
I agree with a disgruntled customer sabotaging it and putting it back on a shelf to get back at Cabelas.

I also agree with the fact that a lot of factory sealed powders will look like they have been opened when you open it due to the seal sticking in the lid instead of the top of the bottle. I've found this very common and who-ever sabotaged this powder also knew it.

Almost all my Hodgdon and Alliant powders due this. I don't worry about that but I do dump about half the container in a miracle whip tub to inspect before using it just to satisfy my own paranoia.

[Jeff2131]

Hmmmmm....ill bet someone bought the powder, used it and then.as stated earlier, mixed it by accident. Sooooo, then got the bright idea to try and return it to the store. Ill be someone accepted the return and it.ended up back on the shelf and then in your hands. Thats probably why cabellas made an.exception for you, im.sure thats not the first time its happened. People do that with wiper blades all the time!

[HiBC]

Coloradocent...Noob!!Good job!!You HAD YOUR EYES OPEN! You noticed something was not right! YOU STOPPED!

Applause!! Great job.

Never lose that to complacency.

Much better post than "My gun blew up,my forearm is spurting blood,my right eye cant see,and my son who was spotting has a piece of receiver ring in his skull...

You are a hero!!,Semi-Noob!

[highbrow]

I ran across this several months ago with IMR 4064.
I have 3 1lbs bottle of the same lot (1102611/2669) that show normal sticks along with some flattened ball and other sticks of varying sizes, some very small and some as long as 3/8" and curled. This was bought at a local retailer that I have been doing business for a couple decades.

I presented this on the National Match web site. http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/i...howtopic=24910
Some noted their powder had the same mix and shot it with out issue.
None of my other lots of 4064 showed this.

I contacted Hodgdon and they requested a small sample, which I sent (several months ago)
and I have not heard back from them.

[RC20]

Outstanding catch and perfect response (check it out first)

A no return policy on powder would simply be for powder bought and regretted.
Cablells should be no laurels for taking back a powder that was obviously mixed.

We can speculate till the cows come home as to how (I thought an anti gun sociopaths way over the edge). And if they don't return it how would a fired employee get into the supply chain? Hmmmm. From an otherwise steller poster.

A lot of people as noted by highborw just continue on like there is not a question. Phew. I have thrown powder out when I violated the benchtop multi power mix and was not sure what I had.

[44 AMP]

Most of the retailers (the ones I know, anyway) have a very firm "do not accept returns on powder" (and often primers) policy.

While I don't know the legal side of this, from a practical side, it makes sense, as the seller has no way of knowing what you might have done to the powder, and don't want the risk of adulterated powder getting in their stock.

Cabelas making an exception in your case is likely because you identified it as adulterated powder. A refund is one thing, actually taking the powder off your hands, is seldom done.

[highbrow]

Ran across this discussion:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/a.../t-590101.html

"Actually, What you are seeing looks like the new “normal”. We have been working for some time to increase the consistency of our IMR line of powders. Our goal is to achieve smaller shot to shot variation, smaller lot to lot variation and, ultimately powders that is an improvement over the powder technology that predates WWII.

"We have tested your lot of powder extensively. Please give it a try and I think you will see good results. This powder will not stratify or separate into layers by the size of the granule because all granules have the same density.

"If you have any other questions about this IMR 4064 please contact us. We would be happy to discuss any concerns you have. 800-622-4366

"Mike Daly
Customer Service Manager"

[reynolds357]

Powder probably is fine. I have seen lots of it on occasion that had oblong ball powder in it.

[Unclenick]

It's extruded like spaghetti. Hard to make oblong spaghetti. The only things I can suggest are the extruder stalled, so it cut short or curled grains, or the manufacturer blended with an unlike powder to control burn rate. Or they just made a blending mistake.

Powder is made and sold in bulk to manufacturers who own pressure test equipment. Bulk powder lot-to-lot burn rates seem to vary around 10% to 15% mostly (with some exceptions) depending on the powder formulation. Canister grade powder sold to handloaders can't be allowed to vary that much or the load manual recipe's become invalid. So, for canister grade they go to the extra expense of testing the burn rate of the lot and then blending, usually with held back bulk lots of the same powder type that were exceptionally fast or slow, as needed, to bring the lot-to-lot burn rate variation withing 3%. That makes canister grade powder for handloading more expensive to manufacture than bulk powder used in commercial loading, but it keeps the data manuals useful.

Anyway, I suppose it's not impossible that the manufacturer produced a bulk lot for which he was short of the extra fast or extra slow lot of the same powder needed to blend for correct burn rate, and thus blended with something else. If so, it strikes me that it would tend to alter the progressivity characteristic of the powder. With the IMR single-base rifle powders, grain geometry is critical to that characteristic, making it impossible to blend with very much of some other powder type and still keep it working the same.

Whatever the cause, I'd be leery of these things, and I think the cautions are in order, even if it came from the maker like that. I'm glad the funny lot of 4064 seemed to work OK. I would have to be pressed for powder before I put something that looked off like that into a load, much less into a match load.

[FrankenMauser]

Even with a response from Hodgdon that the powder was blended intentionally, I don't think I could use it.

After Cornbush's H335 kaboom, Hodgdon identifying H110 contamination as the reason, and discovering that the store he bought it from allowed returns in the case of "I bought the wrong powder" ().... there's no way I'm using something that doesn't look right.

Now that I think about it... Perhaps Hodgdon's and Alliant's crappy powder canister seals have had me subconsciously gravitating toward more Western Powders (Ramshot and Accurate). Their canister seals are well-adhered and more tamper-evident, and I definitely shifted more toward Western's products after the contaminated H335.

[reynolds357]

I use primarily Western powders, but I have no more confidence in their seals than in Hodgdon or IMR. Maybe its just because all I have ever bought from them are 8# jugs. Maybe their 1#ers are sealed better?

[FrankenMauser]

Yea, the 1-pounders have a seal that tears to pieces when you try to remove it.