Cylinder stop

crawdad185 · May 2, 2014, 02:33 PM

Hey folks, I've got an early Bridgeport Charter Arms Undercover that I have a couple of questions about. When I open the cylinder and load the rounds, the cylinder will not rotate all the way around. The head of the bullets hit up against the cylinder stop and prevent it from rotation all the way around.
Although I can get around this, it makes it a little harder to load that way. Is this normal for a Charter Undercover, or is something wrong. All the cylinders on my other revolvers rotate all the way around and do not bump up against the stop.
My second question is that with this same revolver, when you close the cylinder, it is very tight. I can see where the front of the cylinder has been hitting the forcing cone when I close it. It is a little easier to close when I push back on the cylinder as I close it. Do you think I have a problem here that I should have checked?
I should add that the gun shoots great, and other than these two problems, it is a sweet shooting revolver.
Thanks for any help.

Marty8613 · May 2, 2014, 02:58 PM

Are you trying to put 357 rounds in a 38 Special?

James K · May 2, 2014, 03:00 PM

By "cylinder stop", I assume you mean the part of the frame or the part in the frame that keeps the cylinder from moving back too far when it is open.

Neither of the conditions you describe is normal in a Charter Arms gun. There is something very wrong, and the gun may be unsafe. I suggest calling Charter (go to www.charterfirearms.com and click on "Contact" for phone numbers) and see if they will repair the gun. The current company is not under the same ownership as the old one, and your gun is well out of warranty, so I doubt any repairs will be free.

Jim

crawdad185 · May 2, 2014, 03:24 PM

No, I am not trying to put 357 rounds in a 38.
I'll give Charter a call and see what they say.

James K · May 2, 2014, 03:32 PM

The problems described are usually due to a badly worn crane and frame, which is why I didn't suggest a local gunsmith or a DIY fix. If the gun can be fixed at all, it is a factory job.

Jim

crawdad185 · May 2, 2014, 04:15 PM

James, by worn frame, do you mean like a bent or twisted frame? The cylinder spins smoothly and doesn't wobble or anything. When closed it locks up real tight. I can barely move it when it is locked up. And, like I said before, I have shot this gun quite a bit and it shoots real nice, tight groups, not a hiccup from it when shooting. There is just hardly any space between the cylinder and forcing cone at all. I haven't measured the gap, but when closed, I can barely see daylight between the cylinder and the forcing cone.
The cylinder stop (the part that keeps the cylinder from pushing back too far) is just a puzzle. I can't figure out why it is like that. When unloaded, the cylinder will spin freely and doesn't hit the stop, but it is real close to it. When loaded however, the cylinder will not spin at all.

James K · May 3, 2014, 08:33 PM

I was thinking more of a bent crane arbor or a bent crane. Also of the possibility that the slot in the frame where the crane sits is not right, either too tight or too loose. The screw that holds the crane can also wear over time.

The crane arrangement on that gun is adequate for light use, but not very strong compared with the same setup in an S&W, Colt or Ruger. Without seeing the gun, I can't determine what is wrong, but given what I think might be wrong, I feel the factory is the best source for repair. If they can't/won't repair the gun, I don't think there is much to be done.

I hope I don't offend you, but IMHO, the Charter is a reasonably well made gun for limited use, but it is made to a price point and is simply not as durable as other more expensive guns.

Jim

crawdad185 · May 3, 2014, 11:17 PM

I realize this is not the kind of revolver you want to put too much money in. It was given to me so I have no money invested in it except for a cylinder release button and spring. I just thought I might be able to get it up and running without investing too much money and just throw it in the tackle box or something.
I'm going to contact Charter and see if they will take a look at it. If it doesn't cost much, I'll let them fix it if they can, otherwise I'll just have them send it back and I'll keep it around for parts.

Ozzieman · May 4, 2014, 08:07 AM

This is my undercover (new in the mid 80's) and if the case is hitting the small bar/pin/what ever you want to call it that's shown just below the cylinder where the one case is hitting it then your gun is normal.
Why they put this on the gun I don’t know. It might be to protect the frame or cylinder from scraping along the flat slide of the cylinder.
As far as tightness with the trigger pulled and the hammer down mine is also very tight, very. There is no visible light through between the cylinder and the forcing cone.
With the hammer down and trigger released there is a small gap.
Over all I would say yours is normal if what is described above is the same.

P.S. I purchased this gun for my mother and it has fired very few rounds.

lee n. field · May 4, 2014, 12:23 PM

Quote:

As far as tightness with the trigger pulled and the hammer down mine is also very tight, very. There is no visible light through between the cylinder and the forcing cone. With the hammer down and trigger released there is a small gap.

That sounds like a problem rather than a feature.

---edit to add---

My Undercover was like that (excessive endshake), and I was getting intermittent misfires. I sent it it. When it got back, no more endshake, no more misfires.

Ozzieman · May 4, 2014, 06:03 PM

That sounds like a problem rather than a feature.
It’s not a problem, both the undercover and the bulldog I own, when they are locked up (hammer down with the trigger held) both cylinders are tight with very little movement in any direction.
My bulldog is over 25 years old with at least a thousand rounds and it’s tight. That is a feature and a good one.

James K · May 5, 2014, 05:20 PM

Hi, Ozzieman,

No that is not normal. The cartridge rims should not hit the "pin". It looks like the "pin" is not fully seated. (IIRC, it is actually a rivet and is secured to the frame by the internal part being expanded to hold it in place.)

The purpose of the part is to keep the cylinder from sliding backward when it is open; without that, the cylinder will come out at least partway and can't be closed. So it is very necessary, but it should not prevent the cylinder from being rotated for loading.

Jim

Ozzieman · May 5, 2014, 06:33 PM

I’m not too sure I agree with that James. Even if the pin were seated deeper the cylinder would swing out lower and the clearance between where the cylinder hits the pin and the case would be the same. For all practical purposes this is a as new gun with less than 50 rounds.
The bulldog I own does have a little play in the cylinder and crane but no matter what direction I hold the cylinder the case still makes contact to the pin when the cylinder is extended.
My bulldog the pin is fully seated.

Ozzieman · May 5, 2014, 06:44 PM

I just sent a photo and question as asked by crawdad185 to Charter arms and hope for an answer.

g.willikers · May 5, 2014, 06:47 PM

Lots of revolvers have the crane attached to the frame like the Charter.
An arm held in place with a screw threaded into the frame from the front.
It's a simple and inexpensive way to do it.
But it can allow the cylinder and crane to droop and open too far.
The cylinder can actually rest against the frame when fully opened.
That's possibly what is causing the problem here.
Usually the cylinder will rotate better in one direction than the other, especially when loaded.
Hope that made sense.
Anyhow, see if the loaded cylinder rotates in the opposite direction than the one tried.

crawdad185 · May 6, 2014, 12:16 AM

James, the cylinder stop pin is fully seated in my revolver. It can't go in any further.
g Willikers, when the cylinder if fully open (loaded or unloaded) it does not hit the frame. Lots of room between the cylinder and frame. Also, if the cylinder is loaded, it will not rotate at all. The head of the shell hits the cylinder stop pin and will not allow the cylinder to rotate.
The crane screw has also been replaced and locktited in place. No movement or slop yet.
Like ozzieman, my pistol, although old, has had very few rounds through it. Whether it has ever been dropped, I don't know.
I sent an email to Charter and I got a reply back today simply telling me to send it in. I'm going to do that as soon as I return home in a few days.

Ozzieman · May 6, 2014, 07:31 PM

This is the answer I got from Charter arms

Per our QC Manager: “This sounds like the old style cylinder stud as depicted in the exploded view item #19. This can be caused by this stud twisting over the years causing interference. If my theory is correct this IS NOT a safety issue as the cylinder is not in the closed position when it occurs. The above mentioned stud is used to hold the cylinder on while the cylinder is open.” As with any gun, if the you are uncomfortable, you should consider sending it in to be checked by our technicians.

Sincerely,

Diane "Dee" Ecker

Charter Arms

Customer Service Manager

18 Brewster Lane

Shelton, CT 06484

203-922-1652

203-924-2861 Fax

crawdad185 · May 6, 2014, 08:04 PM

It may twist over the years somewhat, but, honestly, I don't think that is the problem ozzie. Look at the picture above and you can see that almost the entire head of the shell casing is sitting "on top" of that pin. The pin is just too close to the cylinder and I'm not so sure that the factory didn't know that and they just turned out a batch of guns like that anyway. I think it just is what it is.

I've got another problem (at least I think it's a problem) with this gun that could possibly be related, but I'm going to start another thread on that. I hope everyone will take a look.

James K · May 6, 2014, 09:10 PM

Hi, crawdad,

I am not a big fan of Charter, but there is something wrong with that gun.

I and the others tried to give you the best advice we could and Ozzieman and Charter Arms went to a lot of trouble to help, and you keep blowing everyone off, insisting there is nothing wrong. But if you know there is nothing wrong, why ask about it in the first place?

Jim

crawdad185 · May 6, 2014, 11:09 PM

Really James? Do you really think that's what I'm doing. If so, then I apologize. I'm not trying to blow you nor anyone else off, I'm just trying to get this thing figured out. No where in my post was I insisting there is nothing wrong. Hell, if I didn't think something was wrong, I never would have made the post to begin with. I'm not particularly a fan of Charter either, however I am interested in figuring things like this out (with the help of others, of course).
If you think you are being blow off and do not wish to contribute to my post, then please, just go on to another.
I hope everyone else doesn't feel this way, however if you do, I have obviously chosen my words poorly to communicate what I was asking.

g.willikers · May 7, 2014, 08:37 AM

Now, now.
How about we begin again and try to solve the problem.
If the cylinder, as you say, rotates without a wobble when opened, have you tried it when closed, with empty chambers, of course?
Does the gap at both ends change, at all, as the closed cylinder is rotated?
How about when there are fully seated, empty cases in the chambers?
The next test would be as above with bullets loaded into empty cases, if you have reloading equipment.
Using loaded rounds is risky.
The idea is to try to determine if there is, indeed, anything bent or incorrectly machined.

crawdad185 · May 7, 2014, 09:25 PM

I'm out of town until Friday and don't have the revolver with me. I plan to ship the revolver out to Charter next Monday and let them look the gun over. When I get home I'll check those things you mentioned before I box it up. I picked up a feeler gauge today during lunch so I can check the cylinder gap also. Otherwise, when I get the gun back from Charter, I'll post their findings.

crawdad185 · May 12, 2014, 11:12 AM

g.willikers, I checked the things that you mentioned and this is what I found:

1) there is no discernible wobble with the cylinder either open or closed.
2) the gap at both ends stays exactly the same at both ends when the cylinder is rotated in the closed position.
3) the gap at both ends stays the same when rotated with empty shells in the cylinder.
4) the gap at both ends stays the same when rotated with loaded rounds in the cylinder.

Nothing appears to be bent, warped or incorrectly machined with this exception: as I was rotating the cylinder around I was looking at the gap between the cylinder and forcing cone and it didn't look just right, so I got a very bright light and held the gun up to that and looked at the amount of light shining between them and it looked to me like there was a gap (light shining through) at the top of the forcing cone/cylinder, but there was no light at all between the forcing cone/cylinder at the bottom portion of the forcing cone.
That appears to me to indicate that the forcing cone/end of the barrel is not true. What do you think?
The gun has been boxed up and shipped out to charter now, so I can't make anymore checks.

May 4, 2014, 08:07 AM	#9
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	This is my undercover (new in the mid 80's) and if the case is hitting the small bar/pin/what ever you want to call it that's shown just below the cylinder where the one case is hitting it then your gun is normal. Why they put this on the gun I don’t know. It might be to protect the frame or cylinder from scraping along the flat slide of the cylinder. As far as tightness with the trigger pulled and the hammer down mine is also very tight, very. There is no visible light through between the cylinder and the forcing cone. With the hammer down and trigger released there is a small gap. Over all I would say yours is normal if what is described above is the same. P.S. I purchased this gun for my mother and it has fired very few rounds. __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe. Last edited by Ozzieman; February 12, 2017 at 06:28 PM.

May 4, 2014, 06:03 PM	#11
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	That sounds like a problem rather than a feature. It’s not a problem, both the undercover and the bulldog I own, when they are locked up (hammer down with the trigger held) both cylinders are tight with very little movement in any direction. My bulldog is over 25 years old with at least a thousand rounds and it’s tight. That is a feature and a good one. __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.

May 5, 2014, 06:33 PM	#13
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	I’m not too sure I agree with that James. Even if the pin were seated deeper the cylinder would swing out lower and the clearance between where the cylinder hits the pin and the case would be the same. For all practical purposes this is a as new gun with less than 50 rounds. The bulldog I own does have a little play in the cylinder and crane but no matter what direction I hold the cylinder the case still makes contact to the pin when the cylinder is extended. My bulldog the pin is fully seated. __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.

May 5, 2014, 06:44 PM	#14
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	I just sent a photo and question as asked by crawdad185 to Charter arms and hope for an answer. __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.

May 5, 2014, 06:47 PM	#15
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Lots of revolvers have the crane attached to the frame like the Charter. An arm held in place with a screw threaded into the frame from the front. It's a simple and inexpensive way to do it. But it can allow the cylinder and crane to droop and open too far. The cylinder can actually rest against the frame when fully opened. That's possibly what is causing the problem here. Usually the cylinder will rotate better in one direction than the other, especially when loaded. Hope that made sense. Anyhow, see if the loaded cylinder rotates in the opposite direction than the one tried. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” Last edited by g.willikers; May 5, 2014 at 06:53 PM.

May 2, 2014, 02:33 PM	#1
crawdad185 Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 32	Cylinder stop Hey folks, I've got an early Bridgeport Charter Arms Undercover that I have a couple of questions about. When I open the cylinder and load the rounds, the cylinder will not rotate all the way around. The head of the bullets hit up against the cylinder stop and prevent it from rotation all the way around. Although I can get around this, it makes it a little harder to load that way. Is this normal for a Charter Undercover, or is something wrong. All the cylinders on my other revolvers rotate all the way around and do not bump up against the stop. My second question is that with this same revolver, when you close the cylinder, it is very tight. I can see where the front of the cylinder has been hitting the forcing cone when I close it. It is a little easier to close when I push back on the cylinder as I close it. Do you think I have a problem here that I should have checked? I should add that the gun shoots great, and other than these two problems, it is a sweet shooting revolver. Thanks for any help.

May 2, 2014, 02:58 PM	#2
Marty8613 Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Grapevine TX Posts: 378	Are you trying to put 357 rounds in a 38 Special?

May 2, 2014, 03:00 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	By "cylinder stop", I assume you mean the part of the frame or the part in the frame that keeps the cylinder from moving back too far when it is open. Neither of the conditions you describe is normal in a Charter Arms gun. There is something very wrong, and the gun may be unsafe. I suggest calling Charter (go to www.charterfirearms.com and click on "Contact" for phone numbers) and see if they will repair the gun. The current company is not under the same ownership as the old one, and your gun is well out of warranty, so I doubt any repairs will be free. Jim

May 2, 2014, 03:24 PM	#4
crawdad185 Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 32	No, I am not trying to put 357 rounds in a 38. I'll give Charter a call and see what they say.

May 2, 2014, 03:32 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The problems described are usually due to a badly worn crane and frame, which is why I didn't suggest a local gunsmith or a DIY fix. If the gun can be fixed at all, it is a factory job. Jim

May 2, 2014, 04:15 PM	#6
crawdad185 Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 32	James, by worn frame, do you mean like a bent or twisted frame? The cylinder spins smoothly and doesn't wobble or anything. When closed it locks up real tight. I can barely move it when it is locked up. And, like I said before, I have shot this gun quite a bit and it shoots real nice, tight groups, not a hiccup from it when shooting. There is just hardly any space between the cylinder and forcing cone at all. I haven't measured the gap, but when closed, I can barely see daylight between the cylinder and the forcing cone. The cylinder stop (the part that keeps the cylinder from pushing back too far) is just a puzzle. I can't figure out why it is like that. When unloaded, the cylinder will spin freely and doesn't hit the stop, but it is real close to it. When loaded however, the cylinder will not spin at all.

May 3, 2014, 08:33 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I was thinking more of a bent crane arbor or a bent crane. Also of the possibility that the slot in the frame where the crane sits is not right, either too tight or too loose. The screw that holds the crane can also wear over time. The crane arrangement on that gun is adequate for light use, but not very strong compared with the same setup in an S&W, Colt or Ruger. Without seeing the gun, I can't determine what is wrong, but given what I think might be wrong, I feel the factory is the best source for repair. If they can't/won't repair the gun, I don't think there is much to be done. I hope I don't offend you, but IMHO, the Charter is a reasonably well made gun for limited use, but it is made to a price point and is simply not as durable as other more expensive guns. Jim

May 3, 2014, 11:17 PM	#8
crawdad185 Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 32	I realize this is not the kind of revolver you want to put too much money in. It was given to me so I have no money invested in it except for a cylinder release button and spring. I just thought I might be able to get it up and running without investing too much money and just throw it in the tackle box or something. I'm going to contact Charter and see if they will take a look at it. If it doesn't cost much, I'll let them fix it if they can, otherwise I'll just have them send it back and I'll keep it around for parts.

May 5, 2014, 05:20 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Ozzieman, No that is not normal. The cartridge rims should not hit the "pin". It looks like the "pin" is not fully seated. (IIRC, it is actually a rivet and is secured to the frame by the internal part being expanded to hold it in place.) The purpose of the part is to keep the cylinder from sliding backward when it is open; without that, the cylinder will come out at least partway and can't be closed. So it is very necessary, but it should not prevent the cylinder from being rotated for loading. Jim

May 6, 2014, 12:16 AM	#16
crawdad185 Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 32	James, the cylinder stop pin is fully seated in my revolver. It can't go in any further. g Willikers, when the cylinder if fully open (loaded or unloaded) it does not hit the frame. Lots of room between the cylinder and frame. Also, if the cylinder is loaded, it will not rotate at all. The head of the shell hits the cylinder stop pin and will not allow the cylinder to rotate. The crane screw has also been replaced and locktited in place. No movement or slop yet. Like ozzieman, my pistol, although old, has had very few rounds through it. Whether it has ever been dropped, I don't know. I sent an email to Charter and I got a reply back today simply telling me to send it in. I'm going to do that as soon as I return home in a few days.

May 6, 2014, 07:31 PM	#17
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	This is the answer I got from Charter arms Per our QC Manager: “This sounds like the old style cylinder stud as depicted in the exploded view item #19. This can be caused by this stud twisting over the years causing interference. If my theory is correct this IS NOT a safety issue as the cylinder is not in the closed position when it occurs. The above mentioned stud is used to hold the cylinder on while the cylinder is open.” As with any gun, if the you are uncomfortable, you should consider sending it in to be checked by our technicians. Sincerely, Diane "Dee" Ecker Charter Arms Customer Service Manager 18 Brewster Lane Shelton, CT 06484 203-922-1652 203-924-2861 Fax __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.

May 6, 2014, 08:04 PM	#18
crawdad185 Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 32	It may twist over the years somewhat, but, honestly, I don't think that is the problem ozzie. Look at the picture above and you can see that almost the entire head of the shell casing is sitting "on top" of that pin. The pin is just too close to the cylinder and I'm not so sure that the factory didn't know that and they just turned out a batch of guns like that anyway. I think it just is what it is. I've got another problem (at least I think it's a problem) with this gun that could possibly be related, but I'm going to start another thread on that. I hope everyone will take a look.

May 6, 2014, 09:10 PM	#19
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, crawdad, I am not a big fan of Charter, but there is something wrong with that gun. I and the others tried to give you the best advice we could and Ozzieman and Charter Arms went to a lot of trouble to help, and you keep blowing everyone off, insisting there is nothing wrong. But if you know there is nothing wrong, why ask about it in the first place? Jim

May 6, 2014, 11:09 PM	#20
crawdad185 Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 32	Really James? Do you really think that's what I'm doing. If so, then I apologize. I'm not trying to blow you nor anyone else off, I'm just trying to get this thing figured out. No where in my post was I insisting there is nothing wrong. Hell, if I didn't think something was wrong, I never would have made the post to begin with. I'm not particularly a fan of Charter either, however I am interested in figuring things like this out (with the help of others, of course). If you think you are being blow off and do not wish to contribute to my post, then please, just go on to another. I hope everyone else doesn't feel this way, however if you do, I have obviously chosen my words poorly to communicate what I was asking.

May 7, 2014, 08:37 AM	#21
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Now, now. How about we begin again and try to solve the problem. If the cylinder, as you say, rotates without a wobble when opened, have you tried it when closed, with empty chambers, of course? Does the gap at both ends change, at all, as the closed cylinder is rotated? How about when there are fully seated, empty cases in the chambers? The next test would be as above with bullets loaded into empty cases, if you have reloading equipment. Using loaded rounds is risky. The idea is to try to determine if there is, indeed, anything bent or incorrectly machined. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” Last edited by g.willikers; May 7, 2014 at 08:46 AM.

May 7, 2014, 09:25 PM	#22
crawdad185 Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 32	I'm out of town until Friday and don't have the revolver with me. I plan to ship the revolver out to Charter next Monday and let them look the gun over. When I get home I'll check those things you mentioned before I box it up. I picked up a feeler gauge today during lunch so I can check the cylinder gap also. Otherwise, when I get the gun back from Charter, I'll post their findings.

May 12, 2014, 11:12 AM	#23
crawdad185 Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 32	g.willikers, I checked the things that you mentioned and this is what I found: 1) there is no discernible wobble with the cylinder either open or closed. 2) the gap at both ends stays exactly the same at both ends when the cylinder is rotated in the closed position. 3) the gap at both ends stays the same when rotated with empty shells in the cylinder. 4) the gap at both ends stays the same when rotated with loaded rounds in the cylinder. Nothing appears to be bent, warped or incorrectly machined with this exception: as I was rotating the cylinder around I was looking at the gap between the cylinder and forcing cone and it didn't look just right, so I got a very bright light and held the gun up to that and looked at the amount of light shining between them and it looked to me like there was a gap (light shining through) at the top of the forcing cone/cylinder, but there was no light at all between the forcing cone/cylinder at the bottom portion of the forcing cone. That appears to me to indicate that the forcing cone/end of the barrel is not true. What do you think? The gun has been boxed up and shipped out to charter now, so I can't make anymore checks.