Legality of a Removeable Rifle Stock on a Pistol? - Page 5

Bartholomew Roberts · October 3, 2009, 10:45 AM

There is constructive possession under the 1934 NFA. All Thompson said was that if there is a possible legal use and a possible illegal use, then the rule of lenity says that the court will assume the possessor was going to do the legal thing and not the illegal one.

However, if you have no legal use for the parts in question (example: a 1911 pistol, a 1911 shoulder stock and only a pistol barrel), that is pretty much a textbook case of what ATF considers constructive possession of an SBR.

Another common occurence that ATF also considers constructive possession of an SBR (or at least they have written letters to that effect) is as follows:

1. You have a single legally registered NFA-compliant SBR AR15.
1. You have a single non-NFA AR15 rifle.
3. You have more than one short barrelled SBR upper for the AR15.

gyvel · October 3, 2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

However, if you have no legal use for the parts in question (example: a 1911 pistol, a 1911 shoulder stock and only a pistol barrel), that is pretty much a textbook case of what ATF considers constructive possession of an SBR.

Okay, granted. However, in my example, only the 1911 pistol and the shoulder stock are present. What is missing (besides the 16" barrel) is the slotted mainspring housing, without which, there is no means of attaching the stock to the pistol.

Is that still considered "constructive possession?"

Bartholomew Roberts · October 4, 2009, 09:08 AM

Well, I would argue no since you do not control all of the parts to "make" a short-barrelled rifle. I'm not sure what ATF would argue since there seems to be a complete lack of logic in some of their decisions.

gyvel · October 4, 2009, 11:16 AM

Finally! An answer! Thanks!

Bartholomew Roberts · October 4, 2009, 05:13 PM

Like I said, that is an answer; but it may not be the same conclusion ATF reaches. You should ask ATF for an answer in writing to be sure.

mapsjanhere · October 5, 2009, 04:22 PM

One question - what determines the barrel length for a revolver by ATF SBR definition? A friend of mine has a (probably Italian copy of ) Colt Buntline and was thinking about putting a stock on it. If you measure the "traditional" way, the round part sticking out of the frame, you get 15 3/4 inch, if you measure from the air gap it's 16 1/4. SBR or not, that is the question.

freakshow10mm · October 5, 2009, 05:54 PM

Revolvers are weird but I think they go from firing pin to muzzle with action closed.

A lot of game departments use this for barrel length measurements, which actually benefits wheelguns because the industry only includes the rifled portion whereas the DNR includes the cylinder itself, getting an additional 1.6 inches or so of "barrel" length. States that have a 5.5 inch barrel on pistols means you can use a .357 Mag wheelgun with 4 inch barrel because of the measurement criteria; 1.6+4=5.6 and you're good to go.

PTK · October 6, 2009, 12:26 AM

Federally, most barrels are measured from breechface with the action closed (and cocked if applicable) to the end of the muzzle (including any permanent attachments, with permanent being welded, blind pinned, etc., not just threaded on)

I'm honestly unsure of how to measure a revolver, by Federal standards.

mapsjanhere

The way you describe "traditional" measurement is just plain wrong - the barrel continues into the receiver. Measured conservatively (not into the cylinder) it's still over 16" for the barrel. As long as overall length is 26" or more with the stock, it's good to go.

gyvel · October 8, 2009, 06:55 PM

Revolvers are measured from the beginning of the forcing cone to the end of the muzzle. The chambers are not included

This was one of the arguments that the Germans used after WWI to circumvent the Treaty of Versailles, i.e. that since chambers of revolvers were not included in the measurement of barrel length on a handgun, it should not be so on an auto either.

October 5, 2009, 04:22 PM	#106
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	One question - what determines the barrel length for a revolver by ATF SBR definition? A friend of mine has a (probably Italian copy of ) Colt Buntline and was thinking about putting a stock on it. If you measure the "traditional" way, the round part sticking out of the frame, you get 15 3/4 inch, if you measure from the air gap it's 16 1/4. SBR or not, that is the question. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

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October 3, 2009, 10:45 AM	#101
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	There is constructive possession under the 1934 NFA. All Thompson said was that if there is a possible legal use and a possible illegal use, then the rule of lenity says that the court will assume the possessor was going to do the legal thing and not the illegal one. However, if you have no legal use for the parts in question (example: a 1911 pistol, a 1911 shoulder stock and only a pistol barrel), that is pretty much a textbook case of what ATF considers constructive possession of an SBR. Another common occurence that ATF also considers constructive possession of an SBR (or at least they have written letters to that effect) is as follows: 1. You have a single legally registered NFA-compliant SBR AR15. 1. You have a single non-NFA AR15 rifle. 3. You have more than one short barrelled SBR upper for the AR15.

October 4, 2009, 09:08 AM	#103
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Well, I would argue no since you do not control all of the parts to "make" a short-barrelled rifle. I'm not sure what ATF would argue since there seems to be a complete lack of logic in some of their decisions.

October 4, 2009, 11:16 AM	#104
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Finally! An answer! Thanks!

October 4, 2009, 05:13 PM	#105
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Like I said, that is an answer; but it may not be the same conclusion ATF reaches. You should ask ATF for an answer in writing to be sure.

October 5, 2009, 05:54 PM	#107
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Revolvers are weird but I think they go from firing pin to muzzle with action closed. A lot of game departments use this for barrel length measurements, which actually benefits wheelguns because the industry only includes the rifled portion whereas the DNR includes the cylinder itself, getting an additional 1.6 inches or so of "barrel" length. States that have a 5.5 inch barrel on pistols means you can use a .357 Mag wheelgun with 4 inch barrel because of the measurement criteria; 1.6+4=5.6 and you're good to go.

October 6, 2009, 12:26 AM	#108
PTK Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Posts: 442	Federally, most barrels are measured from breechface with the action closed (and cocked if applicable) to the end of the muzzle (including any permanent attachments, with permanent being welded, blind pinned, etc., not just threaded on) I'm honestly unsure of how to measure a revolver, by Federal standards. mapsjanhere The way you describe "traditional" measurement is just plain wrong - the barrel continues into the receiver. Measured conservatively (not into the cylinder) it's still over 16" for the barrel. As long as overall length is 26" or more with the stock, it's good to go.

October 8, 2009, 06:55 PM	#109
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Revolvers are measured from the beginning of the forcing cone to the end of the muzzle. The chambers are not included This was one of the arguments that the Germans used after WWI to circumvent the Treaty of Versailles, i.e. that since chambers of revolvers were not included in the measurement of barrel length on a handgun, it should not be so on an auto either.