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Old April 28, 2008, 05:53 PM   #1
joegator
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Road Rage Today. What would you do?

I was driving to work today around 7:30 this morning. Two cars, a small Toyota and a full size Dodge, approached a southbound road from opposite directions.The Toyota came from the west and swung a wide turn crossing over two lanes. Bad driving skills to say the least. In the process he almost side swiped the Dodge. I thought to myself those guys are lucky it was a close near miss. Then the Dodge guy decides to pursue the Toyota. He pulls out in front of the Toyota and then cuts in front of the Toyota at a 60 degree angle forcing the Toyota off the road and blocking his escape route. The Dodge driver then jumped out of his car and ran up to the other driver screaming. The Toyota driver's window was down. I thought to myself I wonder if the Toyota driver has a Carry Permit and at what point would it be within his right to pull it and use it. I wasn't able to stop and don't know the outcome but I did call 911 and told the operator to send a unit to a road rage scenerio. I kept asking myself what would I have done. My buddy said he would have stuck his 45 in the road rage warriors face and told him to back off. What would you have done?
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Old April 28, 2008, 06:13 PM   #2
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I would not have pulled my gun UNTIL the other guy pulled a knife or gun on me or I had VERY reasonable expectations that he would---like him saying he was going to shoot me.
Even IF the guy punches you, YOU ARE NOT WITHIN THE LAW TO SHOOT HIM!!
YOU have an obligation to retreat if at all possible.
I would have rolled my window up and Backed up to get away--if I couldn't do that I would have used my cell phone to call 911 and told the operator what was happening and I was in fear for my life or whatever---get it on tape and leave the phone on till police arrived or the guy left.
I would have gotten his license plate number and vehicle description for the police and also what the dude looked like.
In short, you can/should only meet deadly force with deadly force--you can not shoot someone unless a normal average everyday sane person thinks that it was called for----that means a JURY!!
The guy would get in a huge amount of hot water for pulling a stunt like that on a highway---pulling some one over and in effect detaining them.

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Old April 28, 2008, 06:14 PM   #3
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Depends on the road, if it was the 405 in LA I would of called 911 and kept going. If it was a two lane remote blacktop like the roads I drive I would of pulled ahead a safe distance pulled over and then called 911. I wouldn't get involved, but I'd hope that by being a visible witness I might distract the aggressive driver. If he came after me I'd drive away.

The Toyota guy should of rolled up his window and backed away. When you get caught up in road rage you are not in control of the situation.
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Old April 28, 2008, 06:21 PM   #4
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Close the windows, lock the doors, and call 911. An enraged driver jumping up and down and screaming obscenities is not a valid reason to brandish my weapon.

Carrying concealed means you have to have a cool head, try to de-escalate whenever possible.
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Old April 28, 2008, 06:33 PM   #5
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Toyota driver should get a clue and learn how to drive...they had it coming for endangering the safety of themselves and the occupants of the Dodge...

Last edited by JohnKSa; April 29, 2008 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Expletive Deleted
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Old April 28, 2008, 06:34 PM   #6
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While I would hope I would never be the cause of such a situation (though you never know what people will go psycho over anymore), in my opinion, pulling a gun shouldn't be an option until the guy is either arming himself and/or is trying to break into your car.
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Old April 28, 2008, 06:42 PM   #7
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Ridge Runner 5, that was a very poor response in my opinion. No one should drive like the Toyota driver did, but in this day and age, what the Dodge driver did is a good way to get killed or kill someone, over bad driving. Escalating the situation is the wrong answer.
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Old April 28, 2008, 06:59 PM   #8
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Spaceman you are DEAD ON! good advice!!
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Old April 28, 2008, 07:29 PM   #9
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There had to be an escape route for the driver who was forced off the road. He should keep his windows up, doors locked, drive in reverse and get out of there. If there was a way to drive into that spot there was a way out. Call 911 if you have a cell phone but don't get into a confrontation with the other driver because he is enraged and wants to tear your head off. It would be bad business to pull or use a gun in this instance unless threatened with some kind of a deadly weapon or a severe beating.

Calling 911 was the best option for the witness.
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Old April 28, 2008, 07:54 PM   #10
Shadi Khalil
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I had a road rage incident this weekend

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=291962

Sometimes you have to draw but you dont always have to shoot.
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Old April 28, 2008, 08:27 PM   #11
Don H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dipper
Even IF the guy punches you, YOU ARE NOT WITHIN THE LAW TO SHOOT HIM!!
YOU have an obligation to retreat if at all possible.
Perhaps that is true in whatever state you live in but it is certainly not true in every state.
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Old April 28, 2008, 09:23 PM   #12
Troy26
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YOU have an obligation to retreat if at all possible
Not always true. In some states (including Kentucky) you are within your rights to stand your ground against an attacker
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Old April 28, 2008, 09:33 PM   #13
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Toyota driver should get a clue and learn how to drive...they had it coming for endangering the safety of themselves and the occupants of the Dodge...

Do you drive a Dodge?

Last edited by JohnKSa; April 29, 2008 at 01:41 AM. Reason: Expletive deleted from quote
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Old April 28, 2008, 09:42 PM   #14
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First of all, you do NOT always have an obligation to retreat. This varies widely by state. This is where it is critical that you understand the laws in your area.

That said, it is always best to retreat if you can do it safely.

In this situation, as described, I hope that I would:
  • Put the car in gear (forward or reverse) and leave or be prepared to leave.
  • Call 911.
  • Leave the windows rolled up.
  • Keep my cool.
  • Have my handgun readily accessible, but not necessarily in my hand.

Remember, that if you are in your vehicle, it makes a tremendous weapon in itself if the aggressor draws a weapon of any type.
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Old April 28, 2008, 09:42 PM   #15
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I believe that in Texas the castle doctrine has been extended to include one's automobile.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but in Texas, if the Road Rager breaks your window and starts pummeling you (especially if this is after he just ran you off the road and blocked your escape), I believe that you would be legally justified to defend yourself, and if you were in fear for your life, that could include deadly force.

Anyway, I suppose this can be a good case for having Pepper Spray on hand. In the above stated scenario, if the Dodge dude was fixing to pummel, maybe Spray, Reverse, Escape, call 911 would have been a good option.
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Old April 28, 2008, 09:51 PM   #16
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This thread reminds me that I should carry my extra hunting knife in my truck... where it will be within quick reach if someone breaks the glass and tries to get it. Or maybe a straight razor...
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Old April 28, 2008, 10:01 PM   #17
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If I'm the Toyota driver, I'm going to be apologizing profusely for driving like an idiot and causing the Dodge driver to stop by Wal-Mart on his way to wherever he was going and buy a new pair of underwear.

But if I'm not doing anything wrong other than driving at or near the speed limit and I have some yahoo tailgating me, with ample opportunity to pass or otherwise get around me, and he follows me and follows me and follows me, and THEN pulls the kind of stunt the Dodge driver did . . . .

Well, the ex-military and ex-cop comes out in a hurry, and Mr. Dodge Driver will be looking at the business end of a .45 for the split second it takes me to get out of my truck and put this guy spread eagle on the ground.

THEN we'll have a little chat about just how many milliseconds Mr. Dodge Driver had before he became little more than a memory and how it is a very good idea to simply assume that every driver he encounters from this moment on might just be a former Navy SEAL or Army Green Beret or Marine Recon soldier or Air Commando who doesn't take to such macho bravado foolishness and gets downright testy when feeling threatened.

Don't expect most of you will like my response at all, and don't really care. But if I do everything I can possibly do to avoid trouble, yet if Trouble INSISTS on seeking me out, then I'm going to deal with said Trouble how I've been trained to deal with it.

And maybe, just maybe, next time Trouble won't be so anxious to be Stupid when given the opportunity.

Likewise, I don't begrudge anyone else who would choose to call 9-1-1, or back up and try to flee the scene.

Everyone handles Trouble their own way. But I don't trust any idiot who will A) cut me off and then B) cut in front of me, and stop--forcing ME to suddenly stop, and then C) jump out of their car/truck and run to mine screaming obscenities.

Jeff
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Old April 28, 2008, 10:05 PM   #18
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Pull your gun, hold it calmly where the angry guy can see it but do not point it at him and stare him down without saying a word. This is not "brandishing", it's just letting him know that if he want's to continue to esclate the situation it will turn out badly for him and if his reason for acting tough and macho is to scare you then it won't work. Another idea that many are sure to scoff at is the much maligned concealed carry badge. People respect that shield and if some jerk decides to go road rage on you by beating on the window and yelling to get out of the car then pressing that shield to the glass will diffuse the situation 99.9% of the time. Everyone knows that a badge always has a gun behind it to back it up. If someone is flying off the handle they're not going to take the time to read the fine print and even if they do it says you have a gun. Seems like an object that says "I will shoot you" without having to point a gun would be pretty usefull.
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Old April 28, 2008, 10:14 PM   #19
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My motto is when I am in the car is like my motto whenI am on the street. When confronted with a self defense situation, and I am able to do so in safety, I...

Run/drive away screaming like an 8 year old girl......

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Old April 28, 2008, 10:19 PM   #20
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[if] I am able to do so in safety, I...
Run/drive away screaming like an 8 year old girl......
That really is a great plan (and I mean that.) Sometimes it's also nice to have a backup plan.
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Old April 28, 2008, 10:32 PM   #21
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As indicated, in most states you have a duty to retreat. Even in the handful of states where you don't have to, its still a good idea to make an attempt to leave. If the situation devolves to a shooting situation, it wil work to your benefit that you attempted to safely retreat but for whatever reason, could not. Don't have some fantasy of blowing some guy away. I doubt the fantasy will live up to reality.
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Old April 28, 2008, 10:36 PM   #22
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In the process he almost side swiped the Dodge. I thought to myself those guys are lucky it was a close near miss.
There was no accident there 'almost' was, Dodge driver has no self control and is more than likely an egotistcal a-hole. Even if there were an accident thats what police and insurance are for. People are stupid and make dumb mistakes 24/7, get used to it. I myself always expect other drivers to do something stupid and I'm usually not disappointed.

P.S. I'm a recovering psychopath and 10 years ago would of shot Dodge driver and driven off. Seriously.
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Old April 28, 2008, 10:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
Sometimes it's also nice to have a backup plan.
I can cry and pee myself...nothing defuses road rage more than screaming and groveling and crying and wetting yourself (hand on Seecamp of course)...

Flattery combined with the foregoing is good too...

"O PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE DONT HURT ME MR, I AM SO SMALL AND WEAK AND YOU ARE SO STRONG AND BRAVE PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE *wetspot starts* I WAS WRONG TO EXPECT YOU TO STOP AT THAT STOP SIGN, PLEASE FORGIVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMEEEEEEEEEEE"

Never have to draw down

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Old April 29, 2008, 01:49 AM   #24
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Even IF the guy punches you, YOU ARE NOT WITHIN THE LAW TO SHOOT HIM!!
The first CHL shooting in TX was a road rage incident that resulted in the death of an unarmed man who was punching the CHL holder.

The CHL holder was acquitted.

That's certainly not to say it's justified in every situation--in this case the CHL holder suffered permanent injuries as a result of the beating and had no way to escape. At the same time it's also not correct to say that it's automatically outside the law. You are correct in that if you do, it will probably go to a jury.

The TX castle doctrine gives you the right to respond to the appropriate type of criminal attack without retreating if you have a right to be where you are. I don't believe that it extends the same self-defense rights you have in your home to your vehicle, however.

<<<<Correction. Son of Vlad Tepes is correct that at least some of the castle doctrine applies to an occupied vehicle.>>>>
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Last edited by JohnKSa; April 30, 2008 at 12:45 AM. Reason: Add correction
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Old April 29, 2008, 03:47 AM   #25
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God Bless Texas ---as they say---and I mean that!!
Texas laws are much more friendly to the homeowner/property owner than most states.

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