Reloading 223: Swage before or after resizing?

SWThomas · December 12, 2013, 09:48 AM

I just ordered all the remaining items I will need to start reloading 223. I'm a Dillon guy so I got the Super Swage 600 to take care of those pesky primer crimps. I plan to have 2 tool heads for this set up. Tool head #1 will have the resizing/decapping die in station 1 and the Dillon RT1200B in station 2 for trimming. Mine plan is to run all the brass through tool head #1, then swage, then tumble again to remove case lube and brass shavings. Tool head #2 will have the powder drop, seating die, and crimp die.

My question is: will swaging after sizing and trimming have any effect on the case mouth? I know the Super Swage 600 uses a rod that you slide the case onto mouth first. I just want to make sure the resized neck will not be adversely affected during the swaging process.

Thanks!

rebs · December 12, 2013, 12:43 PM

I can't answer your questiuon about the dillon but I can tell you that I deprime and size and then remove the crimp then trim to length.

totalloser · December 13, 2013, 12:32 AM

Very few 5.56 crimps need to be swaged. VERY few. Set the decap pin to just barely push the primer out. The ones that need a decrimp will deform the primer and you can set those aside to deal with them.

The crimps are cosmetic on most 5.56 cases.

74camaroman · December 13, 2013, 04:59 PM

I bought 1K of the 5.56, 62gr. lake city ammo to shoot in my Kel-Tec SU16and everything was great, except at the range. I loaded 5 rds. in a 10rd mag and fired the first one and was right on center, fired the second shot and no hole, thought I missed the target completely. Tried to load the third round and it wouldn't go into battery, ejected and tried a fourth and it wouldn't go into battery either. Tried a 5th and 6th and then noticed that the bullet was pushed back into the shell casing about an 1/8th of an inch and noticed that Number two, three, four, five were all the same with the bullet pushed back. I took a good look at the ammo, even asked the rangemaster and came to the conclusion that none of the 5.56 ammo was crimped. My brother in law had brought his Colt AR and sighted at the 50 yd and wanted to move to the 100 yd range but he was out of bullets so I told him that he could use the ones I brought.
He loaded his mag and fired the first round and hit the target. The second round went pssst with a slight bang. Checked the barrel and it had fired the bullet. The third roung went PSST with no bang and checked the barrel again and this time there was a bullet stuck in the barrel. Needless to say we didn't shoot anymore that day. Checked with many experienced shooters and we all came to the same conclusion that none of the ammo was crimped. Got home and checked every round and none were crimped.
When I got home I tore my SU16 apart and I also had a bullet stuck in my barrel just past the leade which caused number 2,3,4,5 and 6 to push the bullet back into the shell casing. Good thing the bullet stuck where it did because if it would have stuck half way down the barrel, I could have been hurt very seriously.
Called the place where I ordered them and they were very appoligetic and knew what happened and told me to send them back and they would send me another 1K in exchange, boy what a hassel because I had to go to the main UPS hub to send them back(about a 25 minute drive) and they also refunded my shipping back to me.
The Place that I bought them from explained that he had two crews going full steam, trying to keep up with demand, even weekends. This weekend, he had an extra loader come in on overtime and loaded my 1K rounds on a machine which had a broken crimping die which was on order but the guy had just gotten back from vacation and didn't know that the crimping die didn't crimp. What a foul up but it taught me one thing that the 5.56, 62Gr should be crimped. I hope this helps because this situation could have been alot worse for me than missing some paid for range time. Good luck but if and when I reload my 5.56 I will crimp them. I will start lightly and try at the range, if I have any problems I will crimp alittle tighter until I get the desired outcome. I might even crimp a box lightly, a box crimped moderatly and a box crimped tightly and then make my desicion as to the best crimp.

Marco Califo · December 13, 2013, 06:14 PM

Are two very different things. Swagers reform the primer cup to remove the crimp; or you can ream/trim them with anything available ( knife, screwdriver). Bullet crimps, if present, hold a bullet in place until fired, at which time they disappear.

Ozzieman · December 13, 2013, 07:36 PM

Military 5.56 I swage all of my cases primer pockets. If you don’t you can deform the primer when it’s seated. I have had some that turned the primer half on its side when it hit the crimp edge.
Primer crimps on military brass are not cosmetic.

I use an RCBS which uses the same rod to push the case onto the swager. It’s a little tricky with 5.56 but it does not deform the neck in any way. Just make sure you set it just deep enough to get the crimp. You don’t want to deform the base of the case.

totalloser · December 13, 2013, 08:52 PM

I'll rephrase that comment about cosmetic. In my experience 5.56 are almost always cosmetic to the point that my rcbs swager does nothing to them. In my bulk mixed surplus brass, *very* few had a crimp that needed attending.

A stark contract with 7.62x51 which every case needs a decrimp.

Pretty simple to verify for yourself. Pop a primer, slip it over the nipple. It will take a while to find one that won't slip over the nipple. And when you find one, it almost always won't even go over the tip of the nipple.

Knowing this saves a HUGE hassle. If you set the decap pin to just barely push a fake crimp primer out, the primer will stay in when you find the random "real" crimp. And only those need the decrimp.

The ones that have what I would call a fake crimp, the swager will just *barely* touch the edge of the crimp in the ID where it goes to smooth where the primer will sit. I found that 100% of the time, I could push a primer in with zero problems in these cases. Thousands of rounds loaded this way.

The cases that needed the decrimp, I found the swager nipple reformed half the pocket. The nipple opens up the diameter and then the edge gets reformed. Pretty significant change in the pocket. It doesn't just open up the ID, it reforms the taper. On the fake crimps, the swager doesn't touch the taper at all.

FWIW, in my process I regret tying up the turret with the RCBS since the swage occupies the shell holder. This means to decap and then swage, the shell holder must be removed each pass. I think the Dillon is superior because you don't have to do this operation between decap and swage.

me26245 · December 15, 2013, 04:57 PM

Used correctly the Dillon super swage should not have any affect on you brass case necks.
There is a company that makes centering inserts for the super swage which should help in aligning the primer pocket with the swage.
I think your tool head #1 then #2 process will work fine.
I would recommend that you use a cartridge case gauge to check at least the first few completed rounds to make sure they will chamber. I use one for every round that I put out.

December 13, 2013, 12:32 AM	#3
totalloser Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2007 Location: Fort Bragg, CA Posts: 679	Very few 5.56 crimps need to be swaged. VERY few. Set the decap pin to just barely push the primer out. The ones that need a decrimp will deform the primer and you can set those aside to deal with them. The crimps are cosmetic on most 5.56 cases. __________________ You only truly believe in freedom if you believe in the freedom of those you disagree.

December 13, 2013, 06:14 PM	#5
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Primer crimps (mil spec) & Bullet crimp Are two very different things. Swagers reform the primer cup to remove the crimp; or you can ream/trim them with anything available ( knife, screwdriver). Bullet crimps, if present, hold a bullet in place until fired, at which time they disappear. __________________ ............

December 13, 2013, 07:36 PM	#6
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Military 5.56 I swage all of my cases primer pockets. If you don’t you can deform the primer when it’s seated. I have had some that turned the primer half on its side when it hit the crimp edge. Primer crimps on military brass are not cosmetic. I use an RCBS which uses the same rod to push the case onto the swager. It’s a little tricky with 5.56 but it does not deform the neck in any way. Just make sure you set it just deep enough to get the crimp. You don’t want to deform the base of the case. __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.

December 13, 2013, 08:52 PM	#7
totalloser Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2007 Location: Fort Bragg, CA Posts: 679	I'll rephrase that comment about cosmetic. In my experience 5.56 are almost always cosmetic to the point that my rcbs swager does nothing to them. In my bulk mixed surplus brass, very few had a crimp that needed attending. A stark contract with 7.62x51 which every case needs a decrimp. Pretty simple to verify for yourself. Pop a primer, slip it over the nipple. It will take a while to find one that won't slip over the nipple. And when you find one, it almost always won't even go over the tip of the nipple. Knowing this saves a HUGE hassle. If you set the decap pin to just barely push a fake crimp primer out, the primer will stay in when you find the random "real" crimp. And only those need the decrimp. The ones that have what I would call a fake crimp, the swager will just barely touch the edge of the crimp in the ID where it goes to smooth where the primer will sit. I found that 100% of the time, I could push a primer in with zero problems in these cases. Thousands of rounds loaded this way. The cases that needed the decrimp, I found the swager nipple reformed half the pocket. The nipple opens up the diameter and then the edge gets reformed. Pretty significant change in the pocket. It doesn't just open up the ID, it reforms the taper. On the fake crimps, the swager doesn't touch the taper at all. FWIW, in my process I regret tying up the turret with the RCBS since the swage occupies the shell holder. This means to decap and then swage, the shell holder must be removed each pass. I think the Dillon is superior because you don't have to do this operation between decap and swage. __________________ You only truly believe in freedom if you believe in the freedom of those you disagree. Last edited by totalloser; December 13, 2013 at 09:20 PM.

December 15, 2013, 04:57 PM	#8
me26245 Member Join Date: April 3, 2008 Location: midwest Posts: 42	Swage Used correctly the Dillon super swage should not have any affect on you brass case necks. There is a company that makes centering inserts for the super swage which should help in aligning the primer pocket with the swage. I think your tool head #1 then #2 process will work fine. I would recommend that you use a cartridge case gauge to check at least the first few completed rounds to make sure they will chamber. I use one for every round that I put out.

December 12, 2013, 09:48 AM	#1
SWThomas Member Join Date: August 17, 2013 Location: Fort Lee, VA Posts: 73	Reloading 223: Swage before or after resizing? I just ordered all the remaining items I will need to start reloading 223. I'm a Dillon guy so I got the Super Swage 600 to take care of those pesky primer crimps. I plan to have 2 tool heads for this set up. Tool head #1 will have the resizing/decapping die in station 1 and the Dillon RT1200B in station 2 for trimming. Mine plan is to run all the brass through tool head #1, then swage, then tumble again to remove case lube and brass shavings. Tool head #2 will have the powder drop, seating die, and crimp die. My question is: will swaging after sizing and trimming have any effect on the case mouth? I know the Super Swage 600 uses a rod that you slide the case onto mouth first. I just want to make sure the resized neck will not be adversely affected during the swaging process. Thanks!

December 12, 2013, 12:43 PM	#2
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	I can't answer your questiuon about the dillon but I can tell you that I deprime and size and then remove the crimp then trim to length.

December 13, 2013, 04:59 PM	#4
74camaroman Member Join Date: April 24, 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 50	I bought 1K of the 5.56, 62gr. lake city ammo to shoot in my Kel-Tec SU16and everything was great, except at the range. I loaded 5 rds. in a 10rd mag and fired the first one and was right on center, fired the second shot and no hole, thought I missed the target completely. Tried to load the third round and it wouldn't go into battery, ejected and tried a fourth and it wouldn't go into battery either. Tried a 5th and 6th and then noticed that the bullet was pushed back into the shell casing about an 1/8th of an inch and noticed that Number two, three, four, five were all the same with the bullet pushed back. I took a good look at the ammo, even asked the rangemaster and came to the conclusion that none of the 5.56 ammo was crimped. My brother in law had brought his Colt AR and sighted at the 50 yd and wanted to move to the 100 yd range but he was out of bullets so I told him that he could use the ones I brought. He loaded his mag and fired the first round and hit the target. The second round went pssst with a slight bang. Checked the barrel and it had fired the bullet. The third roung went PSST with no bang and checked the barrel again and this time there was a bullet stuck in the barrel. Needless to say we didn't shoot anymore that day. Checked with many experienced shooters and we all came to the same conclusion that none of the ammo was crimped. Got home and checked every round and none were crimped. When I got home I tore my SU16 apart and I also had a bullet stuck in my barrel just past the leade which caused number 2,3,4,5 and 6 to push the bullet back into the shell casing. Good thing the bullet stuck where it did because if it would have stuck half way down the barrel, I could have been hurt very seriously. Called the place where I ordered them and they were very appoligetic and knew what happened and told me to send them back and they would send me another 1K in exchange, boy what a hassel because I had to go to the main UPS hub to send them back(about a 25 minute drive) and they also refunded my shipping back to me. The Place that I bought them from explained that he had two crews going full steam, trying to keep up with demand, even weekends. This weekend, he had an extra loader come in on overtime and loaded my 1K rounds on a machine which had a broken crimping die which was on order but the guy had just gotten back from vacation and didn't know that the crimping die didn't crimp. What a foul up but it taught me one thing that the 5.56, 62Gr should be crimped. I hope this helps because this situation could have been alot worse for me than missing some paid for range time. Good luck but if and when I reload my 5.56 I will crimp them. I will start lightly and try at the range, if I have any problems I will crimp alittle tighter until I get the desired outcome. I might even crimp a box lightly, a box crimped moderatly and a box crimped tightly and then make my desicion as to the best crimp.