Laser and/or flashlight on .45ACP Semi-Auto

[SerenityNetworks]

Pistol is dual purpose: carry while hunting hog (often at dusk and night) and home defense. I've never used a light or laser on a pistol. I'm soliciting opinions, with rationale, for whether to outfit the pistol with a laser, flashlight, laser/flashlight combo', both as individual units, or neither. I'm leaning towards a laser only. Here is my rationale:

• When hunting at night, I am essentially always wearing a headlamp adequate for any distance at which I might use the pistol.
• A laser only setup is streamlined. Combo units have more bulk.
• Combo units in my price range are bulky enough I'm not sure how they would holster in the field.
• For home defense, I do not seek a track 'em down strategy. Our primary plan is to barricade and defend. They can take what they want; just stay out of our secure area.
• For home defense, I have a hand held flashlight kept by the weapon.
• A laser is good day or night.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance,
Andrew

[Uncle Malice]

I'm not much of a fan of lasers. I do like a good firearm mounted light. My preferred light at the moment is the Streamlight TLR-1 HL.

I'm also interested in the Inforce APL. I will pick one of those up soon. Not as bright as the TLR, but seems a little more streamlined.

[JeffK]

I have a Streamlight TLR4 on my HK45. Can't speak to what's best for you and I don't hunt with it, but I'm very happy to have it mounted on a home defense gun. One thing I didn't expect, having never fired a gun with a laser pointer before, is, it's quite different. You don't focus on the sights, you focus on a little red spot on your target, and it takes time and a lot of practice to get used to this. There is also a substantial lateral offset between the barrel and the laser, so like a rifle with a scope, you have to set it up to be accurate at a particular distance. Especially at greater distances, it will be off substantially.

The light on the TLR4 isn't super-bright, but I reckon it's fine for close-quarters in the dark, which is the scenario I bought it for. I don't see so well in the dark anymore, and gun sights would be useless, so the light plus a laser is a good combination.

[labhound]

I have a Stoeger Cougar 8045 with a Viridian C5L light/laser mounted on it. You can set it for light, laser, or both. With a laser don't chase the laser dot, just point your gun at the target as you normally would as if you were using your fixed sights and the laser dot falls right on the target.

[10mm4ever]

I have a TLR4 on my XD45 service. I cant think of a better handgun setup for when things go bump in the night.

[kutz]

My nite stand 1911 wears an inforce APL & Crimson Trace green laser grips.

[WC145]

Picking up a Springfield MC Operator today to replace a FNP45T as my night stand gun. I use a 300 lumen Streamlight TLR-1s weapon light and also have a Surefire handheld at bedside with the gun. The combo works well for me.

The only gun I use a laser on is a S&W J frame snubby that I carried as a BUG when on duty, great for that purpose but I don't really like them otherwise.

[Cheapshooter]

Check your state game laws. Some states do not allow lasers for hunting.
Lasers are not as quick to acquire as the sellers make it look. Rather than concentrating on sighting, you end up concentrating on finding the dot. Especially in daylight where some aren't visible at all.
For self defense I do not trust my life to circuits and batteries.
My "weapon light" is a hand held Streamlight. I can hold it in my left hand while resting my gun hand on top wrist to wrist for support. But I can also search an area without pointing my gun at an unintended target. Not as much of a concern for hunting.
Just my opinions with reasons why.

[SerenityNetworks]

Texas does allow the use of artificial light in the taking of non-game and fur bearing animals when on private property. So for hogs, I'm okay. For game animals it is a definite no-no.

I should clarify that I don't intend to hunt with the pistol. It is only for carry when hunting should I need to dispatch a wounded animal or find myself in a bad situation. During snake season it will have a pellet load or two in it. If the rest of my life goes as it has so far then I'll find that I'll never use it. But I have it, so I might as well carry it when hunting.

The laser would only be a backup tool for when I cannot see my sights. So I'm just thinking: In the field a flashlight on the pistol would not help me see my sights; too dark. But a laser could be useful. In home defense a decent flashlight on the pistol would cast enough ambient light that I could use my sights. But then again so will a handheld flashlight, which I already have. Therefore the laser would again be a backup only for when I could not see my sights.

It seems a good combo device, like the examples you all have given, provide for more options. But they add bulk and (often) significantly more cost. A laser only device is more streamlined, is (usually) less expensive, and is all I would need in most situations for a backup aiming device.

I'm still leaning towards a laser-only device, but do appreciate the experience and input from the group; especially if what I'm saying/thinking has some serious flaw(s) that I'm not seeing.

Thanks again,
Andrew

[Snyper]

The laser would only be a backup tool for when I cannot see my sights. So I'm just thinking: In the field a flashlight on the pistol would not help me see my sights; too dark.

I'd forget about the laser and invest in a good set of Tritium night sights

No batteries to go dead, and they don't give away your position in defense or hunting use

[SerenityNetworks]

I'd forget about the laser and invest in a good set of Tritium night sights.

Doh! And that's why I post here before doing.

A good set of Tritium sights will cost me more than a laser, but I believe the value makes the cost worthwhile. I'll just need to save a little longer. Later, if I want to add some bells and whistles then I can.

Thank you. Problem solved (for now).

Andrew

[Cheapshooter]

If you were planning on spending less than the price of a good set of tritium sights on a laser it wasn't going to be a very good one!

[Shadi Khalil]

What's your budget? Remember, you'll hardly be able to see a red laser in the daylight, especially at any distance. Viridian offer a whole line of green lasers that are easily visible during the day time. I carried a 637 for years that wore a set of crimson trace laser grips so I think they are great for carry/home carry guns. When I switched to a semi auto, I tried out one of the Viridian light/laser combo and really liked its size, weight and features. I was not ready to change up my holster and carry method to add the laser so I never bought it, however, if I was in the market that would be my first choice.

[Snyper]

A good set of Tritium sights will cost me more than a laser, but I believe the value makes the cost worthwhile.

A decent set of night sights will last 10-15 years
Any laser you buy that cheap probably won't

You can buy several sets of night sights for the cost of a really good laser set up

[jmr40]

At one time I would have said both are a gimmick and a waste of money. I was wrong. I traded into a 1911 that had CT grips on it a few years ago with the intention of swapping them out and selling them. Until I gave them a try. FWIW most special ops groups seem to think they are vital for night time operations. If they are good enough for them, they work for me.

There is a lot of concern that weapon mounted lights will only pinpoint your location and draw fire. Modern lights are VERY powerful, used correctly they effectively blind an intruder giving you a few moments to take care of business.

If I were going to pick one it would be a very effective light.

The lasers greatest advantage is that it allows you to still make accurate hits if you have to fire your gun from an unconventional position. They are not very accurate at any real distance. Since most are not really in line with the bore they have to be zeroed at one range. Mine are zeroed at 10 yards, hits at closer ranges are close enough. Past 10 yards and hits are several inches off. The laser in the CT grips is close to an inch below the bore and about 1/2" left of it. On the rail under the gun would be almost as difficult to work with.

You can get an acceptable gun mounted light with 200+ lumens for under $50. A decent laser is $200. I don't see a laser being an advantage for your uses.

And I'd also spring for night sites. All are just one more tool in the toolbox. Night sites are more helpful in low light where a light is not needed, not as much in zero light. You still need to be able to see and identify your target, but often in poor light you can't see the sights. This is where they help.

[WC145]

Posting back to say that I went ahead and put a set of Crimson Trace laser grips on that MC Operator since I had them laying around. I thought the dot would wash out in the light from the Streamlight but it doesn't. They're definitely thicker than what I usually put on my 1911s but I'm going to give them a try for a while. It can't hurt and since it's not a carry gun the bulk/weight isn't really an issue.

[ejfalvo]

I have a simple red laser on my Sig P220, the HD firearm. All the other handguns are laser/light free.

[SerenityNetworks]

Thanks everyone for the well thought responses. I'll start shopping for a good set of night sights. (It will be for a SAR K2, if anyone has a specific recommendation.) Later, I'll keep my eye out for a laser or laser/flashlight combo. But it's likely to be pretty near the bottom of the wish list.

As a kind of on-topic side note: Offset was mentioned briefly in this thread, but I've seen a lot of posts making a really big deal around about the laser 'only being accurate at a set distance'. I kept thinking to myself 'what is the difference between a laser and irons, or a red dot or scope cross hairs for that matter?' All point in a straight line and are only 'accurate' at a set distance. A scope will commonly have more offset than a laser, it's just on the other side of the barrel; so why do folks seem to make it a bigger issue with lasers? I did a little checking on trajectories. - Let's say I consider an acceptable 'point blank' to be within a 3" circle. Let's say my laser is 1.5" below the barrel. If I zero the laser at 50 yards then with a typical 230 grain bullet I can shoot point blank out to 70 yards. 60 yards will keep me well within a 1.5" circle. For any situation I'm likely to encounter, that's good enough for me. (Of course my CZ in .204 Ruger will shoot that 3" point blank out to 287 yards. Now that is what I call flat :-)

[JeffK]

It's 3" down on my HK45, with a TLR4. Iron sights are only offset a tiny amount, maybe 0.5", and they're on top so they are generally accurate at two distances - a laser below is only accurate at one distance. 50 yards is way out there for a defense gun, I zero mine at 5 yards - so at 10 yards, I'm shooting 3" low and it rapidly gets worse. Really just a range annoyance, having to fiddle with a little screw on the bottom of the laser if you make significant changes in target distance.

[SerenityNetworks]

Jeff, yes, 50 yards is definitely way out there (at least for me). But if all I'm looking to do is keep the bullet within a 3" area for the greatest possible distance then a zero at 50 yards (with a 1.5" negative offset) keeps the bullet within that circle from right in front of the muzzle all the way out to 65 yards.

With a 3" negative offset, yes, you have a big constraint right at the outset. I confess I'm pretty inexperienced with pistols. But I don't understand the rationale for a 5 or even 10 yard zero. Zeroing the laser at 35 yards (with a 3" negative offset) will keep the bullet roughly within a 3" circle out to about 50 yards. With a zero at 5 yards the bullet trajectory is still totally flat, so it will only stay within the 3" circle out to 10 yards. I confess I'm really a rifle guy fiddling a little with pistols, but I'm not following the reasoning behind a short distance zero.

All that said, it seems poor design that virtually all the laser/flashlight combo units have the laser on the bottom. The laser really should be as close to the barrel as possible.

[Snyper]

All that said, it seems poor design that virtually all the laser/flashlight combo units have the laser on the bottom.

The laser really should be as close to the barrel as possible.

I like this design, but haven't used them
http://www.laserlyte.com/products/sight-rear-rtb-gl

[40CalGuy]

as already stated, lasers will take training to get used to and have to be zeroed at a particular range. especially with handgun calibers, there will be a significant different between POA and POI both over and under the zeroed range simply because there is usually several inches of difference between bore axis and light/laser axis.

my Glock 21SF wears a TLR-1HL and it not only fits well to that large frame but i've transferred it over to even my Glock 19 (and Five Seven, CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical, etc) and it fits perfectly there too. strobe function, high lumen output and compact design. my TLR-3 sits unused currently. i had it originally on a PF9 but i hate DAO guns, so i sold the pistol.

i personally stayed away from lasers to save battery life, complexity of operation, weight and cost. with all of that plus the issue of zeroing it really wasn't worth it for me. i do see the point of lasers but seeing a cheaper red laser in daylight it nearly impossible (for training). if you're going to do it, go with a green laser (my opinion). in my opinion all of those costs are not worth owning a laser equipped weapon with one possible exception and that is mounted on a bedside gun that you will share with a less experienced shooter in the sole role of a home defense firearm. only then is it worth the time, money, and training to own a laser.

i also hate grip lasers. a proper grip on almost any semi-auto pistol puts my hand in the way of the laser beam (read: a grip as high as possible to mitigate recoil and make follow up shots easier)

[SerenityNetworks]

lasers... ...have to be zeroed at a particular range

I'm taking this and similar statements to imply that a laser isn't good unless your target is at the particular range for which the laser is zeroed. If that's what is meant then I don't get it. Per my examples (and understanding) above, even with a huge 3" negative offset, a laser zeroed at 35 yards will put the bullet within a 3" area at any distance between the muzzle and 50 yards. That seems perfectly acceptable to me for both mid-sized game and self-defense if shooting at center mass. It's only if trying to shoot bulls-eyes that a laser would need to be adjusted for a specific range and then shot at that range; but that's not the purpose of a laser. Am I missing something or misunderstanding?

[40CalGuy]

most people do not zero at 35yds and the commonly accepted range to test a pistols accuracy (in a vice) is at 25yds and not 35.

that being said, if you can make it work for you and think it's your best bet then go for it.

i simply cited the reasons i decided not to. perhaps your particular use case would lend itself better to laser ownership. i've had several on different platforms and of varying types (CT grips, guiderod laser, dovetail sight integrated, rail mounted pistol, rail mounted rifle) and none of them were as useful as i had hoped and all were more expensive than i could justify for the very little usage they saw.

[40CalGuy]

i'd also venture a guess than 95 out of 100 "regular shooters" can't hit a 10" pie plate let alone a 3" area at 50 yards if you give them a whole Glock 18 mag's worth of ammo to do it in.

again, perhaps you can but dollars to donuts if you can, you're in the minority.