So you call yourself a gunsmith

**4V50 Gary** · August 29, 2022, 08:21 PM

I never looked down my nose on some of the Muslim gunsmiths. Their safety practices yes, but skill level no.

https://youtu.be/OPjrP_dQlms

More mom 'n pop factories and stores:
https://youtu.be/MC1Z2-ITNtc

Arms Market:
https://youtu.be/w4895bG4hNk

Scorch · August 30, 2022, 04:18 PM

Yes, their skills have been talked about for over a century. I've seen a couple of "made from scratch" Lugers that were hard to tell from the real deal, but since Arabic and Roman characters are nowhere near similar, the markings get a little funny looking. But they work and fire, and in a culture where ANY gun is a handy thing to have, these craftsmen really do stand out.

**4V50 Gary** · August 30, 2022, 05:29 PM

We were anal about drilling holes at Trinidad State. If you drilled the hole in the wrong spot, it could affect the function of the part or how it interacts with other parts. Factories used jigs to do this (and there is a picture of the Griffin & Howe jig used to make the M-1C in the new sniper book). I want to see how those Pakistanis did that w/out a jig.

Scorch · August 30, 2022, 06:28 PM

I didn't say they were building sniper rifles, I said they work and fire.

**4V50 Gary** · August 30, 2022, 10:10 PM

Wasn't arguing. It's amazing what they do with what they have. It would be nice to bring one over to do demonstrations. It could be a combination of cutlural anthropology and fabrication.

Doc Hoy · August 31, 2022, 05:34 AM

Not disagreeing with anything said in the post, just my two cents.

My father (still with us and still active at 97) brought home a knock off of a Smith and Wesson revolver.

He traded a pack of cigarettes for it in Lu Liang China in late 1945.

The fit and finish are good with bluing still fairly good 75 years later. The pistol, including the S&W emblem, on both of the grips looks fairly close to the real thing.

The internal components of the pistol were made from soft metal and the pistol is very loose and unshootable. It may have been unshootable when he first acquired it.

Imprint on either side of the barrel make use of non-English characters.

I have no knowledge of the actual origin of the pistol, but my sense is that it was made in China rather than in a Muslim shop.

Dunno.

Tnx,

Doc

**4V50 Gary** · August 31, 2022, 09:12 AM

Is it still in the family Doc Hoy and can you post pictures of it?

I'm not surprised it's of soft steel. What is heat treatment and with insufficient steel factories, they used what they could get. I'm thinking salvaged RR tracks.

Doc Hoy · August 31, 2022, 11:02 AM

Here are some photos of the pistol.

Left side and right side with a photo of the S&W grip badge. Worn but you can tell that the maker was trying to be thorough.

Doc Hoy · August 31, 2022, 11:08 AM

The other grip badge. Some marking on the barrel. Note that the type face on the barrel is not English. Not being a language expert I cannot recognize it. I do not believe it is Russian.

Doc Hoy · August 31, 2022, 11:09 AM

Characters on the grips.

Pahoo · August 31, 2022, 11:40 AM

Gary,
I wish I could remember more details but a number of years ago, there was a special on TV about a town/village over there, whose "entire" economy is based on making firearms and it didn't stop with rifles and handguns. They even made anti-aircraft machine guns and some artillery. Yes, all from scratch as shown in your videos. It was amazing and I wish I could remember the name of the town. I think it was in Afghanistan. .......

Be Safe !!!!

**4V50 Gary** · August 31, 2022, 12:34 PM

Thanks Doc Hoy. I think the lettering is illteracy in action. The Chinese don't know the western alphabet. Hey, good enough for government work!

Pahoo - I found this one interesting. They show the heat treatment and it's the old fashioned case hardening with charcoal and leather. Hot salt bluing is shown. The videographer pans way too fast for my liking.

https://youtu.be/J-f7j-RlN_Q

I'd like to see how they do their stampings (M-3, MP-44, AK receivers and magazines).

Geezerbiker · August 31, 2022, 01:13 PM

I was wondering about the heat treating. However I doubt they are using very good steel judging from the poor quality of Pakistani knives I've had.

It's still amazing what they make with such crude tooling...

Tony

MoscowMike · August 31, 2022, 02:14 PM

Doc Hoy, when you mentioned a Chinese copy of a revolver, I thought of Ian McCollum’s videos and book on the great variety of essentially hand-made Chinese pistols from the 20s and 30s.

Here’s a video from a few years ago -

https://test.forgottenweapons.com/a-...istols-at-ria/

Here's the book he wrote. It’s out of my price range but I would love to look through a copy.

https://www.headstamppublishing.com/chinese-pistols

Ian says that some were made in government arsenals and reasonably good quality, but the majority were built in small workshops with no attempt at parts interchangeability or heat treating. The lettering is fun.

Doc Hoy · August 31, 2022, 10:19 PM

Thanks. I'll watch that video when I get a chance. Schedule has really filled up lately.

Doc Hoy · September 1, 2022, 11:08 AM

Very enlightening. It is a compelling explanation for the markings on my revolver.

**44 AMP** · September 2, 2022, 11:11 AM

There are stories, going all the way back to the British occupation of the region and the building of railroads, telling of how the Pathan tribesmen (and others) would rip up the rails to use the steel to make guns and other things.

Some were crude, some were actually well crafted, amazingly so considering. Reproductions of many different types of firearms, including some complicated designs, (such as Lugers and DA revolvers,) and sometimes even down to recreating the proof marks.

OF course, the steel used and the heat treating is suspect, the guns were never proofed even if they have proof marks, but some of the workmanship is amazingly good. Particularly so considering most (all?) being done by hand without modern, powered machinery.

**4V50 Gary** · September 2, 2022, 05:40 PM

I wonder about things like headspacing and timing. I also wonder how they make coil springs (we did that on a lathe) for things like triggers such that the weight is correct for recoil mechanisms such that they function reliably? iI suspect they buy their spring wire as it's easier. Timing is important for selective fire mechanisms. Weight of metal and parts affect the timing too.

**Unclenick** · September 2, 2022, 09:27 PM

I remember when Lee first came out with their Classic Cast reloading press line, a photo of the casting foundry showed piles of train rail lengths in the background. Some things are more universal than we expect. I remember when my dad took a class on making muzzle loaders the springs were all flat springs of carbon steel that were forge-heated then quenched in oil, and then tempered by putting a match to the oil to burn it off.

"Where there's a will…"

**4V50 Gary** · September 2, 2022, 11:25 PM

We used flat spring stock to make V-springs at school. We tempered them im a lead pot.

**4V50 Gary** · September 4, 2022, 08:58 PM

Skip to ten minutes to see Mr. Lin

Hose clamp to secure action to stock. Barrel welded onto the receiver. Pass.

**4V50 Gary** · September 5, 2022, 10:09 AM

The Taiwanese made inline muzzle loaders in the above link are pretty bad. Between the Taiwanese and the Pakistanis is this American with his home made stuff which he started at age 14. All mild steel construction.

https://youtu.be/IOD_DgnSN8c

All good enough for buybacks.

One thing these videos share in common is it shows the futlity of gun control and how ingenious people are.

August 29, 2022, 08:21 PM	#1
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	So you call yourself a gunsmith I never looked down my nose on some of the Muslim gunsmiths. Their safety practices yes, but skill level no. https://youtu.be/OPjrP_dQlms More mom 'n pop factories and stores: https://youtu.be/MC1Z2-ITNtc Arms Market: https://youtu.be/w4895bG4hNk __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 30, 2022, 04:18 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Yes, their skills have been talked about for over a century. I've seen a couple of "made from scratch" Lugers that were hard to tell from the real deal, but since Arabic and Roman characters are nowhere near similar, the markings get a little funny looking. But they work and fire, and in a culture where ANY gun is a handy thing to have, these craftsmen really do stand out. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

August 30, 2022, 05:29 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	We were anal about drilling holes at Trinidad State. If you drilled the hole in the wrong spot, it could affect the function of the part or how it interacts with other parts. Factories used jigs to do this (and there is a picture of the Griffin & Howe jig used to make the M-1C in the new sniper book). I want to see how those Pakistanis did that w/out a jig. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 30, 2022, 06:28 PM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I didn't say they were building sniper rifles, I said they work and fire. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

August 30, 2022, 10:10 PM	#5
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	Wasn't arguing. It's amazing what they do with what they have. It would be nice to bring one over to do demonstrations. It could be a combination of cutlural anthropology and fabrication. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 31, 2022, 05:34 AM	#6
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Upon his return from China in 1946 Not disagreeing with anything said in the post, just my two cents. My father (still with us and still active at 97) brought home a knock off of a Smith and Wesson revolver. He traded a pack of cigarettes for it in Lu Liang China in late 1945. The fit and finish are good with bluing still fairly good 75 years later. The pistol, including the S&W emblem, on both of the grips looks fairly close to the real thing. The internal components of the pistol were made from soft metal and the pistol is very loose and unshootable. It may have been unshootable when he first acquired it. Imprint on either side of the barrel make use of non-English characters. I have no knowledge of the actual origin of the pistol, but my sense is that it was made in China rather than in a Muslim shop. Dunno. Tnx, Doc __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 31, 2022, 09:12 AM	#7
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	Is it still in the family Doc Hoy and can you post pictures of it? I'm not surprised it's of soft steel. What is heat treatment and with insufficient steel factories, they used what they could get. I'm thinking salvaged RR tracks. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 31, 2022, 11:40 AM	#11
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	There is a village ??? Gary, I wish I could remember more details but a number of years ago, there was a special on TV about a town/village over there, whose "entire" economy is based on making firearms and it didn't stop with rifles and handguns. They even made anti-aircraft machine guns and some artillery. Yes, all from scratch as shown in your videos. It was amazing and I wish I could remember the name of the town. I think it was in Afghanistan. ....... Be Safe !!!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

August 31, 2022, 12:34 PM	#12
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	Thanks Doc Hoy. I think the lettering is illteracy in action. The Chinese don't know the western alphabet. Hey, good enough for government work! Pahoo - I found this one interesting. They show the heat treatment and it's the old fashioned case hardening with charcoal and leather. Hot salt bluing is shown. The videographer pans way too fast for my liking. https://youtu.be/J-f7j-RlN_Q I'd like to see how they do their stampings (M-3, MP-44, AK receivers and magazines). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 31, 2022, 01:13 PM	#13
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	I was wondering about the heat treating. However I doubt they are using very good steel judging from the poor quality of Pakistani knives I've had. It's still amazing what they make with such crude tooling... Tony

August 31, 2022, 02:14 PM	#14
MoscowMike Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 57	Doc Hoy, when you mentioned a Chinese copy of a revolver, I thought of Ian McCollum’s videos and book on the great variety of essentially hand-made Chinese pistols from the 20s and 30s. Here’s a video from a few years ago - https://test.forgottenweapons.com/a-...istols-at-ria/ Here's the book he wrote. It’s out of my price range but I would love to look through a copy. https://www.headstamppublishing.com/chinese-pistols Ian says that some were made in government arsenals and reasonably good quality, but the majority were built in small workshops with no attempt at parts interchangeability or heat treating. The lettering is fun.

August 31, 2022, 10:19 PM	#15
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Gary and Mike Thanks. I'll watch that video when I get a chance. Schedule has really filled up lately. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

September 1, 2022, 11:08 AM	#16
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Had the opportunity to view that video Very enlightening. It is a compelling explanation for the markings on my revolver. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

September 2, 2022, 11:11 AM	#17
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	There are stories, going all the way back to the British occupation of the region and the building of railroads, telling of how the Pathan tribesmen (and others) would rip up the rails to use the steel to make guns and other things. Some were crude, some were actually well crafted, amazingly so considering. Reproductions of many different types of firearms, including some complicated designs, (such as Lugers and DA revolvers,) and sometimes even down to recreating the proof marks. OF course, the steel used and the heat treating is suspect, the guns were never proofed even if they have proof marks, but some of the workmanship is amazingly good. Particularly so considering most (all?) being done by hand without modern, powered machinery. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 2, 2022, 05:40 PM	#18
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	I wonder about things like headspacing and timing. I also wonder how they make coil springs (we did that on a lathe) for things like triggers such that the weight is correct for recoil mechanisms such that they function reliably? iI suspect they buy their spring wire as it's easier. Timing is important for selective fire mechanisms. Weight of metal and parts affect the timing too. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 2, 2022, 09:27 PM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I remember when Lee first came out with their Classic Cast reloading press line, a photo of the casting foundry showed piles of train rail lengths in the background. Some things are more universal than we expect. I remember when my dad took a class on making muzzle loaders the springs were all flat springs of carbon steel that were forge-heated then quenched in oil, and then tempered by putting a match to the oil to burn it off. "Where there's a will…" __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 2, 2022, 11:25 PM	#20
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	We used flat spring stock to make V-springs at school. We tempered them im a lead pot. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 4, 2022, 08:58 PM	#21
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	Taiwanese gun maker for the indigenous people Skip to ten minutes to see Mr. Lin Hose clamp to secure action to stock. Barrel welded onto the receiver. Pass. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 5, 2022, 10:09 AM	#22
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	The Taiwanese made inline muzzle loaders in the above link are pretty bad. Between the Taiwanese and the Pakistanis is this American with his home made stuff which he started at age 14. All mild steel construction. https://youtu.be/IOD_DgnSN8c All good enough for buybacks. One thing these videos share in common is it shows the futlity of gun control and how ingenious people are. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*