Do you grapple?

[Valerko]

Never really done much martial arts . Now in my 40s I've signed up for Dfence Lab classes , along with my 16 year old. And since me and him are only 2 in the class that are over 6' and 250lbs , we end up sparing together a lot. . My kid has few inches and few pounds on me. Not sure it was such a good idea to tech him how to hit.
Our instructor in JJ master and incorporates some of it in DL. Long story short , I was hooked on it from day one. Great work out and finally learn little bit of some street fighting skills.

[adamBomb]

I don't really have any experience grappling and wouldn't be confidant in getting into a physical fight with a stranger.

Admitting this is one of the first steps in learning how to fight (ie box, wrestle, bjj, etc). Too many guys believe they can fight because they can throw a haymaker, were in the military, are a cop, have watched fighting on TV, have been in a school yard fight, or have wrestled around with their friends. Some of them do know how to fight because they have really trained somewhere but most do not. Fighting is a skill just like anything else and not something you can learn in a week or a month. Most of those guys in the UFC/Bellator have been training their whole lives and there are guys out there that have been wrestling since they were 4 yrs old. If you train you will improve a lot and that will put you at an advantage were you to have to get physical against an untrained person. But you have an advantage in that you know what you can do and have a plan. One of the first things guys learn in brazilian jiu jitsu is to throw your ego out the door because everyone there is probably better than you and the more you show your ego the harder people are going to go against you and make you tap 20 times in 5 mins instead of going a bit easier and teaching you.

Additionally there are tons of martial arts out there that are BS. One way to learn this is if you cant practice a skill at 100% force, its probably BS. If they are telling you to kick them in the knee to take them out, poke eyes, train a lot of wrist locks etc its probably BS. If there are kid black belts, its BS. etc. Its pretty easy to spot. MMA/BJJ/Boxing/MuayThai are usually good choices because there is less of a chance that the school is a joke, however, even those are becoming common. The FBI and military have some great training programs but most people do not go through them. I get to train with tons of people from all branches of the gov so we get to talk about their training a lot. Some of it is top notch. In training I assume every new person can fight until I get to see them in action their first night.

Another thing to remember about grappling is that no one chooses to take a fight to the ground unless its to their advantage. If you dont know how to grapple then you probably also do not know how to prevent a fight from going to the ground either.

[Nanuk]

Adam, some of what you say is true. Many arts have been watered down and degraded to the point of uselessness. You need to keep it in context. Some arts you do not practice full power on people because it is a hard style and you will seriously hurt someone. Some arts is where you learn it and from whom. BJJ is just as vulnerable to the money mill routine as anything. Go tell a ROK MP that his Tae Kwon Do is BS.

As with anything it is not always what you know, but how you apply what you know. How do you combine everything into a system that works for YOU? That is what is important.

I only tested one time, and that was because my daughter wanted me to test with her. A black belt means nothing to me, I was taking Tae Kwon Do for 30 years before I ever tested.

[adamBomb]

BJJ is just as vulnerable to the money mill routine as anything.

Absolutely. In fact its happening a lot in BJJ/MMA right now. The BJJ/MMA police as they are called do try to call people out and have done a good job but its definitely happening. And arts like TKD, etc. can be awesome. Its just much easier to find a good MMA gym then a good TKD gym.

[Lohman446]

I think we have hit on a difference. In Kenpo you did not train full out because the medical bills would have been too high. While I respect that some of you are in positions where effective grappling must be used to control an individual without injuring said individual I am not. If I am employing physical force it is as a last resort. I am attempting to do enough physical or psychological damage to force my attacker to stop and / or create enough distance to safely employ a firearm. There is no intent or reason for me to subdue an aggressor with any hold or grapple.

[NateKirk]

Are there any specific disciplines that are recommended for this kind of fighting, in terms of effectiveness, not just in being able to find a good school?
Is there any way to decide what style of fighting to pursue other than just trying a bunch of them?

[adamBomb]

Are there any specific disciplines that are recommended for this kind of fighting, in terms of effectiveness, not just in being able to find a good school?
Is there any way to decide what style of fighting to pursue other than just trying a bunch of them?

Yes. Train MMA, BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, or Wrestling or all of them. You will train all of these full force and learn to fight. Any art that doesn't spar 100% and has techniques that are too dangerous to use live are usually BS. For example, some arts teach to kick the attackers knee caps and they will fall or hit them in a certain part of the ribs, or hit them in xyz pressure point. They claim many of these techniques are too dangerous to practice live. Except we know from MMA that they are total BS. MMA proved tons of techniques to stop an attacker were BS, especially when you look at the early days of the UFC and Vale Tudo fights when there were no rules. You can find tons of videos online where these 'too dangerous to use arts/techniques' tried to challenge a BJJer/MMAer to a fight. The results are pretty funny and pathetic. Be sure that if a technique works well every MMA fighter out there is using it. There is a reason MMA fighters train boxing, wrestling, bjj, and muay thai exclusively.

Having said that all of that there are TKD, Tang soo do, etc schools out there that are still good but the majority are watered down soccer mom schools that have black belt birthdays. Why? Because they followed the money. BJJ schools lose about 90%+ of their beginners because it sucks to get beat up everyday. But you need to careful because fake bjj black belts are cropping up and every mcdojo now claims they teach mma even though the instructor has never been in a pro mma fight and doesnt know any grappling/wrestling.

There are also some schools that train stick fighting (dogg brothers) and knife fighting (krav maga) but you need to be careful the schools are good. Same goes with all arts but krav maga and 'self defense' schools dont usually practice live which means you are training techniques that you dont know will really work. Some do and are awesome but there are so many bad ones out there that krav gets a bad rap.

the best thing you can do is find a school that has a good instructor that you like, students you like, and trains in a realistic manner - as in practicing the techniques they teach you at 100% capacity against someone resisting 100%. Fake wrist lock throws that look cool dont really work in real life.

[Lohman446]

If your attacker is highly trained in BJJ and you are grappling it is unlikely you are going to win. We all hope any attacker is not highly trained and competent. UFC is full of competent individuals and does not likely actually represent a likely attacker

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

I don't really call it "grappling" I call it fighting. I have experience and training in martial arts, ground fighting and wrestling. A career in LE I have been in hundreds of fights. I am 6' and 275 and work out regularly.



I see grappling as one component of fighting.

True. And that is mainly why I started this thread. I wanted to see what people do in the aspect of training when dealing with grappling.

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by NateKirk

I don't really have any experience grappling and wouldn't be confidant in getting into a physical fight with a stranger. I compensate somewhat in that if a situation arose, I plan to maintain distance, change my position so that objects are in front of an aggressor if possible, and keep an eye out for any blunt weapons I/he can use, as well as being prepared to use my pistol if necessary.

Me too. I have no idea what someone else is capable. I don't want to fight someone period. But knowing some minor things like shrimping may save you. You don't have to be submission wizard. But being an escape artist is a really good thing.

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by Valerko

Never really done much martial arts . Now in my 40s I've signed up for Dfence Lab classes , along with my 16 year old. And since me and him are only 2 in the class that are over 6' and 250lbs , we end up sparing together a lot. . My kid has few inches and few pounds on me. Not sure it was such a good idea to tech him how to hit.

Our instructor in JJ master and incorporates some of it in DL. Long story short , I was hooked on it from day one. Great work out and finally learn little bit of some street fighting skills.

I wish I could find a class I really liked that was stand up. I just haven't found anything that I really want to practice.

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by Lohman446

I think we have hit on a difference. In Kenpo you did not train full out because the medical bills would have been too high. While I respect that some of you are in positions where effective grappling must be used to control an individual without injuring said individual I am not. If I am employing physical force it is as a last resort. I am attempting to do enough physical or psychological damage to force my attacker to stop and / or create enough distance to safely employ a firearm. There is no intent or reason for me to subdue an aggressor with any hold or grapple.

Part of grappling is also knowing the escapes. The basics. I'm not a saying anyone should be a submission master. I really only use 5 or so submissions regularly (with variation). And a lot of time I use submissions to escape a bad position. If I get the submission, great, but I'd rather just not be on my back. But knowing how the submission works is good so you know how to escape it.

Prime example? There is a guy in my class who is really tall. Sometimes he will mash a forearm or shoulder into someone's throat from their guard. And people tap to that. I did once or twice. But not anymore. I know what he is doing and I know why It doesn't work. So I don't tap to it and I put up proper resistance in the right place and let him waste his energy while I work on escaping.

[OldMarksman]

A fight per se is the last thing in which one wants to engage, ever. If one cannot avoid, evade, and/or escape, one will have to defend oneself, and the only really important thing to know is how to keep an assailant from preventing one from doing so.

This is worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwkU3FC6sLI

[P5 Guy]

Honestly I do NOT want anyone that near me that means to do me harm.
I am not in any condition to be rolling around on the ground with an aggressor.
Awareness is my main defense and not going out to places of ill-repute.
Pipe dreaming maybe but it has worked so far.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by PS Guy:

Honestly I do NOT want anyone that near me that means to do me harm.

Nor should anyone else!

I am not in any condition to be rolling around on the ground with an aggressor.

Those who think they are may be in for an awful surprise. A blade could end the affair, a gouge in the eye could have long term effects, and an infusion of diseased bodily fluids is to be avoided always.

Awareness is my main defense and not going out to places of ill-repute.

Certainly a good start, and use the awareness to try to avoid getting within two arms length of anyone who may be dangerous.

I can no longer rely on speed, but my walking stick seems to deter, and could prove useful.

[Lohman446]

I'm going to disagree on a point. If you and your partner can train at 100% on a regular basis and then smile and walk away in five minutes you are practicing a sport. Now that sport may have some great real world application but it's still a sport. In my opinion you want to be able to do as much damage as possible to your attacker with as little movement as possible. Few people are well enough trained to grapple an opponent and not have either party injured in a situation where force, outside of agreed upon competition or practice, is justified.

With that said chose the style that you enjoy enough and practice with people you will enjoy being around so you practice

Step one that anyone can do that others have mentioned: walk with your head up and aware. This allows you to retreat before the confrontation.

Step two: avoid escalation. That guy that says he can kick your butt may be pacified by agreement

Step three: avoid flashy or expensive jewelry, watches, and even vehicles to a degree. No one is going to attempt to kidnap for ransom the guy driving a 1979 Pinto (take that to whatever degree you want)

Step four: if possible be in reasonable physical condition. Many crimes are crimes of opportunity. Do not be the easiest target

[adamBomb]

A fight per se is the last thing in which one wants to engage, ever. If one cannot avoid, evade, and/or escape, one will have to defend oneself, and the only really important thing to know is how to keep an assailant from preventing one from doing so.

Definitely. Its one of the reasons that I think grappling with a bit of boxing/muay thai is about the best you can get. Grappling is great because it teaches you to get out of the worst situations (ie getting bear hugged from behind, mounted, taken down to the ground, put in a head lock, choked, etc.) Being able to escape from the most vulnerable positions against someone who is much stronger and bigger than you is a nice tool to have in your arsenal. Its actually what I do when I work with newbies on their first night or trial course. I put them in those exact position I just explained and ask them to get out of them. They never can because I know what Im doing. Then I ask them to get me in those positions and hold me the best they can. I escape each one in about 1 second. This is usually enough to show them why grappling is great for self defense. Keep in mind I am 160 pounds so these guys usually outweigh me by 30-50 pounds on average and think they are going to be able to destroy me.

[Ton]

I think the main point I was trying to make is that while grappling is a great skill set to have, if you are training purely for self defense reasons it is just a single component of your system and has limited application.

Real fights don't happen in a gyms or rings. Real fights don't often happen in bars when two idiots decide they don't like each other. Real fights happen when someone or someone(s) of an unknown age, gender, size, mental state, fighting capability, and weapon access decide for an unknown reason to inflict harm upon you or your family at an unknown time and place.

The reason the police generally survive 20 to 30 year careers of dangerous encounters with dangerous people isn't because they are Jack Bauer and can walk into a martial arts gym and immediately be better than everyone there. The vast majority can't. Anybody who regularly practices any art will be better than somebody who does not. But police repeatedly win the fights they get in for two simple reasons: being overly prepared and over reacting. Pepper spraying somebody who is non compliant, tasing somebody who squares up to you, getting more people on board, etc.

Again, if you enjoy grappling, it is a fantastic skill to have, but it is a single component of a vast system that includes situational awareness, location selection, deescalation, marksmanship and weapon handling, where and how you carry, non lethal means of dealing with a threat, etc.

I used to grapple quite a bit. When training often, I got much better than the average joe, but also had the enjoyable experience of rolling with people who were ALOT better than me. I remember tapping repeatedly when a 100 lb, 1 legged individual I would wrap me up like a christmas present and put me a blood choke every time. On the surface he seemed like a harmless little dude, but as soon as he was on the ground with you suddenly it was like you were trying to wrestle an engine block.

Today, if I found myself rapidly approaching a similar situation, I would not waste time and important energy trying to wrestle back the much more skilled fighter, I would focus entirely on escape and weapon deployment. If I could not access my gun, which would have been likely in the situations I was in, I would be digging hard for my knife, and spend the rest of my energy trying to stay out of any sort of choke hold.

[Deaf Smith]

Folks,

Question.... what if you grapple and the other guy's friend shows up? Or he pulls a knife and sticks it in your ribs or leg? Or bites? Grabs your junk? Or breaks contact and grabs a chair/tire iron/lamp/rock?

I mean, you guys want to spend most of your training time on the ground in some kind of 'mano-to-mano' scenario where they have no weapons and obey the rules of the game? That's your plan?

Deaf

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by Deaf Smith

Folks,



Question.... what if you grapple and the other guy's friend shows up? Or he pulls a knife and sticks it in your ribs or leg? Or bites? Grabs your junk? Or breaks contact and grabs a chair/tire iron/lamp/rock?



I mean, you guys want to spend most of your training time on the ground in some kind of 'mano-to-mano' scenario where they have no weapons and obey the rules of the game? That's your plan?



Deaf

Let's say I break bad (don't worry...I won't...I hated that show): if I were to attack someone...I want to knock them down. I want to take them off their feet. And then I want to put the boots to them. We can talk all day about knives and guns and having plans and what we plan to do...but like it or not...getting knocked down is a real possibility if someone attacks you. What do you do then?

Basically?

http://youtu.be/dclfBro8ews

That video sums up the way I feel people should learn to grapple. You don't have to do what I do. I learn to choke people with their clothing. I learn submissions. You don't have to submit me to beat me in a real fight. You just have to keep me from keeping you down.

My entire premise is that it is unwise to neglect knowing how to come back from a very bad position. And if you don't know how...you won't be coming back from it.

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by Ton

I think the main point I was trying to make is that while grappling is a great skill set to have, if you are training purely for self defense reasons it is just a single component of your system and has limited application.



Real fights don't happen in a gyms or rings. Real fights don't often happen in bars when two idiots decide they don't like each other. Real fights happen when someone or someone(s) of an unknown age, gender, size, mental state, fighting capability, and weapon access decide for an unknown reason to inflict harm upon you or your family at an unknown time and place.



The reason the police generally survive 20 to 30 year careers of dangerous encounters with dangerous people isn't because they are Jack Bauer and can walk into a martial arts gym and immediately be better than everyone there. The vast majority can't. Anybody who regularly practices any art will be better than somebody who does not. But police repeatedly win the fights they get in for two simple reasons: being overly prepared and over reacting. Pepper spraying somebody who is non compliant, tasing somebody who squares up to you, getting more people on board, etc.



Again, if you enjoy grappling, it is a fantastic skill to have, but it is a single component of a vast system that includes situational awareness, location selection, deescalation, marksmanship and weapon handling, where and how you carry, non lethal means of dealing with a threat, etc.



I used to grapple quite a bit. When training often, I got much better than the average joe, but also had the enjoyable experience of rolling with people who were ALOT better than me. I remember tapping repeatedly when a 100 lb, 1 legged individual I would wrap me up like a christmas present and put me a blood choke every time. On the surface he seemed like a harmless little dude, but as soon as he was on the ground with you suddenly it was like you were trying to wrestle an engine block.



Today, if I found myself rapidly approaching a similar situation, I would not waste time and important energy trying to wrestle back the much more skilled fighter, I would focus entirely on escape and weapon deployment. If I could not access my gun, which would have been likely in the situations I was in, I would be digging hard for my knife, and spend the rest of my energy trying to stay out of any sort of choke hold.

And that is what I'm looking to see. Do people know how to even recognize they are going from bad to worse if they got forced into that situation? Just "fighting hard" isn't going to keep you out of trouble. Fighting correctly will.

[Deaf Smith]

My entire premise is that it is unwise to neglect knowing how to come back from a very bad position. And if you don't know how...you won't be coming back from it

.

In such as Krav Maga, which I spent some time doing, they teach you the basics of grappling and then they tell you to avoid the ground if you can, but if you can't, do everything, and use anything, to break contact once on the ground. They teach that once on the ground you are vulnerable to attacks by others as well as anyone who is stronger. So, such as spralling or rolling through the fall is what you use. For you see the object is to survive, not to get a submission hold. Submission holds only work on one attacker. ONE.

This ain't about neglect, this is about how much emphasis should be placed on it in training.

Deaf

[Lohman446]

Originally Posted by Stonewall50

And that is what I'm looking to see. Do people know how to even recognize they are going from bad to worse if they got forced into that situation? Just "fighting hard" isn't going to keep you out of trouble. Fighting correctly will.

I think the vast majority of individuals on this forum likely realize that. I think it is a matter of perspective. When faced with an aggressive attacker I see three options: (1) retreat - this is by far my most preferred option (2) concede to the demands of my attacker if they do not threaten my safety or that of those I have a moral obligation to defend (3) deploy as overwhelming force as I can possibly deploy to end the aggressive actions as quickly as possible.

I have a great preference for option 1. Because I believe that the use of overwhelming force is always a negative action (please note there is a difference IMO between a negative action and one that is wrong or unjustified) I also greatly prefer option 2 over option 3.

That being said I think we all need to be aware of contact fighting that does not involve a firearm. If someone draws a knife on me at 30 feet outside of my house deploying my firearm and using overwhelming force would likely have drastic legal consequences. However history teaches me that if they are much closer I have to have an option other than my firearm for creating distance.

Being forced to grapple is, to me, a nightmare scenario. Distance is my friend and any contact fighting I use is going to be in an attempt to gain distance or movement in order to retreat or use a firearm. Further because I am not of means to make kidnapping for ransom a likely motive for my attacker I cannot envision any scenario where my attacker is able to close on me and put me in any type of hold where he or she would not have simply deployed overwhelming force. No one is going to walk up behind me and suddenly put me in some hold. Anyone willing to cross that line and able to approach me that close without raising my suspicion is likely to stab / shoot / club me.

Maybe I am wrong but focusing on grappling for self defense is to me of somewhat questionable value. Even focusing on anything but the most rudimentary of contact fighting is, again for defensive use, of somewhat suspect value. Now if you enjoy training in those things for other reasons great - do it. If you are a peace office or work in the security industry you have different goals than I do in regards to confrontations and need more skills and I understand that. For the armed citizen concentrating on grappling is likely not where I would spend my limited training time, money, and effort.

[adamBomb]

Question.... what if you grapple and the other guy's friend shows up? Or he pulls a knife and sticks it in your ribs or leg? Or bites? Grabs your junk? Or breaks contact and grabs a chair/tire iron/lamp/rock?

I can come up with scenarios all day that make every form of fighting useless. What if you have your glock in hand but a gang of trained assassins shows up with 20 fully auto machine guns? Even in your scenario a good grappler would be able to avoid/get out of that situation much better than a non trained person.

My entire premise is that it is unwise to neglect knowing how to come back from a very bad position. And if you don't know how...you won't be coming back from it.

Exactly. Being able to recover from the worst positions is very useful.

Do people know how to even recognize they are going from bad to worse if they got forced into that situation? Just "fighting hard" isn't going to keep you out of trouble. Fighting correctly will.

No people do not even know what bad positions are. If you are avoiding going to ground during a struggle your weight is going to be all over the place because you wont know how it should be. I will toss them on the ground in about 2 seconds with a judo/wrestling hip toss.

This ain't about neglect, this is about how much emphasis should be placed on it in training.

Enough that you could defend the takedown against a person who has a few years of wrestling experience but may not have trained in years. There are so many kids who wrestled that can take you down pretty fast even though they havent trained in 10 years. Its not easy to avoid the takedown. You need 1-2 years of continuous training be even be moderately good at it unless you are a phenom type athlete who can pick it up in a few months. A few self defense classes on the subject wont help very much at all. This is one of the problems with grappling - it takes a lot of time to learn.

Maybe I am wrong but focusing on grappling for self defense is to me of somewhat questionable value. Even focusing on anything but the most rudimentary of contact fighting is, again for defensive use, of somewhat suspect value.

I have two thoughts on this:

1. You are more likely to use grappling then EVER using your firearm unless you are LEO or in the military. Why? You have a much greater chance that uncle joe will get drunk and out of control at the summer BBQ. Being able to restrain someone without knocking them out is a very good skill to have. Its not that bad things dont happen but the chances of these kinds of things are usually greater than SHTF scenarios. Having said that my buddy who is a navy seal said that they learned that if they were fighting without their gun they were probably dead already. But that was during combat.

2. Any form of self defense is probably something none of us will ever use therefore there is no reason to train it. But none of us here believe that which is why we are training. We are training for that maybe or one time situation where it could be useful. Where should you focus your efforts? Its up to you. Some people build bunkers. Some learn hand to hand combat. Some learn to survive in the woods. etc. Some learn some form of all of it. I personally train hand to hand combat. I train with firearms. I train for survival. I train first aid.

[Lohman446]

Originally Posted by adamBomb

1. You are more likely to use grappling then EVER using your firearm unless you are LEO or in the military. Why? You have a much greater chance that uncle joe will get drunk and out of control at the summer BBQ. Being able to restrain someone without knocking them out is a very good skill to have. Its not that bad things dont happen but the chances of these kinds of things are usually greater than SHTF scenarios. Having said that my buddy who is a navy seal said that they learned that if they were fighting without their gun they were probably dead already. But that was during combat.

I think a lot of times when you have differing views it comes down to a simple difference and I think you have just hit on it. I am a relatively anti-social person by nature and do not do well in large or protracted social situations. For me, or even those around me, to have more than a drink or two would be decidedly out of character and I might have two drinks a month. Once behavior even hints towards getting out of control "oh look 'Uncle Joe' is having his third bear" I simply gather my kids and leave.

The scenario you describe is extremely unlikely to happen in my lifestyle. If I am having to make physical contact with anyone but my children I am in a situation where the use of overwhelming force is justified. There is no "uncle Joe" situation that is a concern for me.