Winchester Powders

[Bella]

As I read these threads, I noticed several brands of powder that are mentioned often. Hodgdon seems to get alot of attention here. I hardly ever see Winchester rifle powders discussed here. Is there a reason? Does anyone here use or prefer Winchester powder? Is there something wrng with it? Just wondering.

[QBall45]

Winchester rifle powder? I thought Winchester only made handgun powders...well, at least that's all I use from them anyway.

I use Hodgdon & Alliant powders for my rifle loads. No reason not to use a Winchseter powder that I know of. I just have not had a need to experiment with their rifle powders yet.

[SL1]

Winchester has made a few rifle powders for many years, just rarely the SAME rifle powder over all those years. With the frequent discontinuing current powders and introducing new powders, I think their rifle offerings just have not had enough exposure to develop long-term users and brand loyalty.

Now, with Hodgdon having the distribution rights to Winchester powders, I hope the will phase-out what is identical to some of the Hodgdon powdr line keep anything that is truly unique AVAILABLE to us in the long-term.

SL1

[Sevens]

Seems to me that Accurate powders are even less popular in most of these discussion forums. And then there are the Vihtovuori powders... those that like them, LOVE them, but I don't think I'll ever find out if I like them because of the price tag.

Not that I can't "afford" to drop $30 on one pound of powder if I wanted to, but it seems like I find success with powders that cost 50-60% of that price... so why try?

(okay, I'll be honest... I'm afraid to try them because I fear that I would like them and then I'd have buy expensive powder! )

[Farmland]

I would bet to say that their 231 has to be one of the most popular handgun powders of all time. I know it has a very strong following.

[Mike Irwin]

I've used Win. 748 in years past, primarily in .30-06 and .300 Savage.

It never did enough for me to want to switch from IMR-4064.

[GeauxTide]

Have used 748 in 308 with 150s. Lots of flash and shoots dirty; however, 2958 in a 22" barrel is .30-06 territory. Tried Varget when it came out, and haven't used 748 since.

[longranger]

Try some Win 748 in the smaller CF cartridges it is next best or equivelant to Varget. Yes a little dirty but the performance outshines most other powders. Win 231 in pistols is the same,both very good powders in the right applications.

[jimkim]

I have used Win 748 for over twenty years now. It and Dupont IMR4350 were the first rifle powders I ever bought. They were also the only ones my local store carried. It has same general uses as BL-C(2), RL-10, H-322, AAC-2230, and H-335 powders.

[GP100man]

WW rifle 748 , 760 will cover & perform good in rifles of most calibers but i sure do get nervous when the IMR 4046. 4350 gets low.

Hodgdon has been the parent co, for WW & IMR powders now for a few yrs. now & admitted some powders are the same just in different labels!!

[snuffy]

Winchester has made a few rifle powders for many years, just rarely the SAME rifle powder over all those years. With the frequent discontinuing current powders and introducing new powders, I think their rifle offerings just have not had enough exposure to develop long-term users and brand loyalty.

I shy away from most things made by winchester, EXCEPT their primers. Reason is they seem to have a penchant for dis-continuing powders that they have brought out. Anybody remember MRP powder? Stood for Magnum Rifle Powder. It was some good stuff, but those that had loads worked up for it were SOL when the decided they didn't want to make it anymore!

Same goes for primer designations. Some say magnum large rifle, some say for standard large rifle loads, then they also say for ALL large rifle loads. For heavens sake make up your minds! Anybody remember the 7M-111-F large pistol primers? I still have a few, they're actually large pistol mag primers, but how would you tell from those numbers?

[Scorch]

Winchester has offered powders for a looooong time. I started reloading in the 1970s, and 748BR, 780BR and 780BR were the primary rifle powder offerings. In the 1980s, 748, 760, and 785 were the Winchester offerings. In the 1990s, they still offered 748 and 780, but 780 had been replaced by WMR. Then WMR was dropped, and 780 returned. Through it all, 748 and 760 endured, and they have been very consistent powders all along, but nowhere near as popular as IMR, Hodgdon, or Alliant powders.

[Nightowl]

I've used W-231 for many loads and its very reliable and easy to measure. I also use W-296 in my .357 & .44 Mag. loads. Again, very reliable and measures very consistently.

[oneounceload]

Hodgdon owns Winchester and IMR powders

[Jim Watson]

Not quite. Hodgdon owns the US distributorships for Winchester and IMR powders. The factories, Winchester in Florida, IMR in Canada, are both now owned by General Dynamics.

[Sidewinder72]

I swear by Winchester for pistol calibers. Mainly 231 but 296 also. I never use Winchester powders for rifles. I use Hogden and Alliant only because those are readily available and I think they are hard to beat. But what do I know if I never use them! You never see VV or accurate around here.

[Unclenick]

Hodgdon distributes them. Hodgdon bought IMR outright in 2003. The Winchester brand name is still owned by Olin, though, and is licensed to Hodgdon. The Winchester Ball Powder® trademark applies to their spherical propellants made by St. Marks Powders, in Tallahassee, Florida. That company was owned by General Dynamics, last time I looked it up. It has sold powder to both Hodgdon and Winchester for years, which is how the duplication has taken place. A Hodgdon tech told me that currently:

HP38 is the same powder as 231,
H110 is the same as 296,
H414 is the same as 760.

I think the old Winchester 540 may have been identical to HS-6, and 571 may have been the same as HS-7?

Winchester's answer to why they obsolete powders is as follows:

"Unlike many other competitive powders that have not changed (in some cases for 100 years or more) Winchester Smokeless Propellants, like computer technology, get better every generation."

Well, take what you will from that.

748 remains a popular target shooting powder in .223 Remington for 60 grain bullets and heavier. It has also seen a lot of use in .308 with 168 grain bullets, but I don't know anyone who has worked it up for the newer 175 grain Sierra MatchKings? RL15 seems to rule with those bullets.

If you're curious what the rationale behind the Winchester powders is, the brief history on their web site says:

• Stable long life – far exceeding the capability of extruded powders
• High density – ideal for rifle calibers. Yet the BALL POWDER process is capable of density adjustment to also create high performance pistol and shotshell powders
• Adjustable chemistry – allows the powder to be tailored to specific cartridge applications through chemistry as well as geometry.
• Lower flame temperature – allows longer barrel life

My personal experience with all spherical propellants, whether Winchester or Accurate or surplus, is they benefit from anything you can do to improve ignition. Deburring flash holes made a big difference with AA2520 in my M1A. Going to magnum primers, especially if the load doesn't fill the case, is a help. Even uniforming primer pocket depth seems to improve its consistency.

[Jim243]

There are a lot of other powders, but it seems one reloader suggest a powder to another reloader who recommends the same powder to another reloader and so on and so on. Win 231 is one of the most popular powders out there for handgun it just works 99.9% of the time on all handgun loads. But there are also popular powders for certian loads like AA 2400 for 357 or 44 mag, Power Pistol for 9 mm and 40 S&W. A lot of reloaders use shotgun powder for their pistol loads like Bullseye, Blue Dot, Red Dot, it just depends on what they started out using in the begining, if it works don't fix it.

I started out loading rifle with H-4895 and use it for 90% of my rifle loads, again if it works don't fix it, I just bought 2 lbs of IMR 3031 which is suppost to be a very good powder, but it will probably sit on the shelf for a long time untill I get that feeling to try something new (maybe next summer).

The Winchester name always seemed a little old fashion to me, the wild west and all that. If Win 231 didn't work as well as it does I would probably be using HP-38 instead. What's in a name, would you use Honda 3500 or Toyota 1235 I don't think so, but I have been wrong many times before, I actually thought the Bears would come out of their slump last year.

Stay safe and shoot straight.
Jim

[rn22723]

Just go read the MSDS sheets for Win Ball Powders and Hodgdon Spherical Powders.....They have the same St Marks designator.......
Winchester Ball Powders
Hodgdon Spherical Powders

[Mike Irwin]

""Unlike many other competitive powders that have not changed (in some cases for 100 years or more) Winchester Smokeless Propellants, like computer technology, get better every generation."

ACK! :barf:

Back when I worked for NRA the Winchester director of public relations laid a very similar line on me when I asked him why 680, a positively WONDERFUL bridge powder, had been discontinued (and nothing has really ever taken its place).

At least he apologized by sending me 3 lb containers of 231 and 296.

If they ever discontinue 231 (I was using 231 LONG before I got my 3lb keg), I'm going to quit handloading.

[Shane Tuttle]

Originally Posted by Jim243

If Win 231 didn't work as well as it does I would probably be using HP-38 instead.

As Unclenick stated, it's the same powder. You probably wouldn't be gaining anything by switching from one to the other if you're not getting satisfactory results.

[Crankylove]

I use W231 in the .38, 9mm, and .45 ACP; W296 in my .22 Hornet and .357 Mag; and love W748 for my .358 Winchester. I have never had an issue with Winchester powder, and in my area it is usually $1-2 per lb. less expensive too

[hammie]

What's a bridge powder and how would you use it in a card game? As for nothing replacing WW 680, I thought Accurate Arms 1680 came pretty close. AA1680 works great in my hornet.

[SL1]

Technicians at Accurate have insisted that AA-1680 IS WW-680, so I am guessing that it came from the same plant as WW-680.

BUT, the manuals that I have which show loads for both powders in the same cartridge with the same bullet seem to consistently show slightly more 1680 giving somewhat less velocity than 680 at max loads. So, the data does NOT look interchangeable.

I wonder if Winchester discontinued their 680 because the actual manufacturer failed to make a lot that had less variance from the previous lot than Winchester was willing to accept, and then Accurate picked up what was produced and sold it as "similar" instead of trying to sell it as the same. Nobody had explained to me why Winchester actually chose to stop distributing their 680.

SL1

[Mike Irwin]

Bridge powder -- it bridge the gap between 296 and rifle powders for cartridges that didn't quite do well with 296, but really didn't like some of the rifle powders.

Cartridges like .32-20, .25-20, and the like. My .25-20 and a friend's .218 Bee SANG with WW 680.

And I had no idea that AA-1680 was the same as 680.