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August 15, 2006, 08:07 PM | #76 | |
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Of course not....unless you live in a Nation of Laws; a Nation where even you, Joab, enjoy a presumption of innocence; a Nation where, when the full weight of the State cannot find a crime, you are generally granted innocence, not only by the COURTS but by Me Also. After all, Joab, you were raided.....you must have been guilty of something. I'm pretty certain you bear watching, too, Joab....did you fill in those IRS forms without error? Why are you traveling to Yellowstone...you have no family there. You seem to have a whole lot of cash in your pocket....hmmmm, it's "tainted" with cocaine, too. Did you just question my AUTHORITY to search you for dangerous weapons, Joab? My records show you do have a Firearms Permit, no? All Hail Joe Stalin now. What an absolutely farcical debate. Rich
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August 15, 2006, 08:13 PM | #77 | ||
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You are pissed because I won't come to judgment based on a one sided article quoting the family and trial lawyer. That hardly compares to the full weight of the state. Quote:
because I won't accept the testimony in the court of public opinion of the family and their lawyer, I am now a communist sympathizer? I cannot understand how you can build a soapbox out of one prejudiced article anymore than you can understand how I can't
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August 15, 2006, 08:24 PM | #78 | |
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The enforcers need be more beholden to the law. Vis a vi, they must be more accountable than the citizen. If I am to trust the LEO to protect me from evildoers, he must himself so distance himself from evildoers to leave himself above reproach. When any officer of the law, aborts the faith with which he has been entrusted, he destroys the faith in the system, not himself. It is much larger than that with which he has been entrusted. He has damaged faith in the system. As, such, he is more accountable to the law, he must be above reproach. One who enforces the law at his discression, is no more than a despot. |
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August 15, 2006, 08:25 PM | #79 |
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OK, Joab-
Let's start over...... nobody called you a Communist sympathizer. I simply alluded to the fact that public statements like yours were the bread and butter of the control exercised by people like Joe Stalin. You can like it or dislike it; or you can refute it with a bit less "wiggle" than you've offered thus far. You tell me: What DO we know about this case? Q: Do we know if any drugs were found? A: Yes..trace amounts in an exterior trash can. Q: Do we know if any charges were levied against the family of a woman SHOT THREE TIMES AND NOW DEAD? A: Yes. Husband released on recognizance. Q: Do we know why the house was raided? A: No. The State has not deigned to share that with us....perhaps Cheryl was connected to 911 and it's classified? Q: Do we know where the perp (victim?) was at the time of the "incident"? A: Yes, in her bed, ASLEEP! Q: Do we know what time it was? A: Yes, it was Four Thirty in the Morning. Q: Do we know what we value most on this Forum? A: Yes, unswerving protection of self and family from unknown attackers, REASONABLY JUDGED to intend us serious harm. Soooooooo- Have I got any of the "known facts" wrong? Would you like to add any additional facts to the discussion? Are you willing to come to ANY conclusions on THOSE FACTS before awaiting "all the facts"? Rich
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August 15, 2006, 08:35 PM | #80 |
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No Rich you have made your mind up based on the information in this oh so informational article.
As you have said the police have not chosen to seek your counsel on the events of that night so they must be guilty as hell of all charges levied against them. They are murderers who would have come back to plant drugs and guns in the house to bolster their case if not for the intervention of the board and should be shot three times each at their next company picnic There do I fit in here now?
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August 15, 2006, 08:38 PM | #81 | |
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I'm an impossible target to turn into a cop basher. I'm an impossible target into who's mouth you can inject those kind of words. My history, words and works speak for themselves. What you CAN do is respond to the facts as you know them or continue to back-peddle. On this one, I now give you no quarter. Rich
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August 15, 2006, 08:50 PM | #82 |
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joab, had I fully understood your attitude earlier, I would not have repeatedly responded to your posts with suggestions that the criminal justice system might be anything other than perfect and infallible.
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August 15, 2006, 08:57 PM | #83 | |
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parlay, Rich
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Below the belt. |
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August 15, 2006, 09:12 PM | #84 |
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You're right Rich. About the only thing we DON'T know is whether she pointed the gun at the intruder. The family vehemently disputes that. But interestingly enough, it's irrelevant since the intruder was just that - an unannounced intruder - a criminal in her mind - against whom she had a right to protect herself, including pointing a gun. Her only mistake was not shooting first. I mean, the police are not disputing they they did NOT knock or announce, are they?
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August 15, 2006, 09:35 PM | #85 |
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FF...what a tricky spot to be...
Yes, would be my first thought.....
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August 15, 2006, 09:49 PM | #86 | ||||
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Maybe I should have done a little sarcastic emoticon for you after I asked if I fit in here now like that Quote:
Now you think you can bully me into a peripheral argument? Just because I don't automatically jump on the side of the state hater doesn't mean that I am sheeple I have made my point and stick with it. You choose to minimize it with some happy horse pucky about valuing unswerving family protection, apparently as the basis for all the juvenile cop bashing based on a single one sided article quoting the family and their trial lawyer Quote:
My history and my words on this forum and others speak for themselves. As a matter of fact I believe it was you or moderator here that implied that I was a cop basher not all that long ago. And I took as much heat for siding with a homeowner that shot a couple of cops on his back porch, but that was after all the evidence available was presented.
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August 15, 2006, 10:06 PM | #87 | |
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- "Well, where was her gun pointed?" - "Well, just because there were no charges doesn't mean she was innocent of anything." - "Well, OK then, let's kill all the cops at the annual picnic." Yet you haven't responded to a single FACT that has been offered; preferring to respond with broad generalizations of how the rest of us "bully" you; preferring a cadenced sidestep of the REAL issues on the floor. We'll come together on another topic and agree wholeheartedly, I'm sure. But for this one? You're dismissed now. You refuse to talk FACTS and continue to defend a position that became indefensible a half dozen posts ago. Simply....for what? (Don't answer that.....I'm already frightened enough. ) Rich
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August 15, 2006, 10:06 PM | #88 | ||
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Notice the cutesy way I highlight all the witnesses and how I end it with a condemnation of rushing to judgment based on the version of events presented only by the family and their trial lawyer Quote:
Nowhere have I presented judgment of guilt or innocence of either party based on the facts of the case, because there just isn't any, no matter how hard some try to say that there is. There is merely supposition based a missing evidence, namely a police response. Some consider that to be the tie that binds the argument together, I simply consider that to be the missing link needed to prove the theory If I'm not mistaken gc70 weren't you one of my most vocal opponents on the copshooting thread?
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August 15, 2006, 10:25 PM | #89 | |
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Come on Rich, I asked you a series of questions a few posts back you responded to none.
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I'll play your little game since you refuse to accept the validity of my point Q: Do we know what led the police to believe that were drugs in the house A: You would if you bothered to do a little research beyond the words of the family and their trial lawyer Q: Do we know where the perp (victim) was at the time of the shooting A: No, but her family and their trial say she was asleep so it must be true Q: Do we know where the husband was A: No but someone suggested that he may have been flushing evidence Q: Do we know if there was an investigation into the events A: Yes the cops were cleared of wrong doing, But the findings of the clearly biased state do not hold weight against the clearly unbiased words of THE FAMILY AND THEIR TRIAL LAWYER see I can do that too who stand to be very rich if things go their way Q: Do we know the police account of the raid A: No because unlike the family and their trial lawyer they have chosen not to take the case to the court of public opinion this time, or possibly just because the family and the trial lawyer did not feel like using their fifteen minutes to give that info out. Or possibly just because no one here has found it yet
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August 15, 2006, 10:58 PM | #90 | |
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This bears repeating, loud and clear:
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I sure hope there are people in the law enforcement and legal communities who take note of our concerns and do something about them -- because they should be everyone's concerns. -azurefly |
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August 15, 2006, 11:04 PM | #91 | |
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Whatever "attacking" I have done has been strictly aimed at your arguments, and unlike you, I have not resorted to petty snipes and very-thinly veiled insults of your intelligence. Frankly I'm very surprised you haven't earned yourself a ban here. Pretty disappointed, too. It would be one thing if someone were to pick up your torch and carry it for you, making the same arguments but without the ad hominems. Sure, the forum might lose something if you were to go bye-bye, but I don't think we'd really lack for stuff to discuss and debate. It would just be that much less acrimonious is all. -azurefly |
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August 15, 2006, 11:13 PM | #92 | ||
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This article should have brought on discussion of a disturbing police policy. Instead, it's been a circle of useless arguments over irrelevant particulars.
Someone tried to outline the issue, and get the discussion on track very early in the thread: Quote:
Why has this not been the topic of discussion? By the way, if we were required to wait for every single fact to surface before forming opinions, there would be no discussion on discussion boards, or anywhere else for that matter. There is nothing wrong with forming opinions based on the information currently available. If we didn’t, there would be no gut-feelings, first impressions, or any other preliminary/cursory assessment. The problem comes when people are unable (or unwilling) to change their opinion when NEW information surfaces that would cause the reasonable mind to question it's original position. By debating with this in mind, we should be able to skip the insolence and discuss the real issue – a dangerous police policy. Quote:
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August 15, 2006, 11:14 PM | #93 | |
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Quote:
I asked you specifically about how it has been supposedly established as "fact" that the woman pointed her gun at the cop, and you brought up the fact that everyone agrees she "was in possession of a gun at the time of the incident." What does that have to do with the price of 9mm Parabellum in China? Let's see, Joab. You originally wrote the following: "No, the family had already been secured downstairs before the officers went upstairs to find the woman alone in her room pointing a gun at them." Then you tell me I'm splitting hairs when I bring up the subject that so far, the only source claiming she pointed a gun at the COPS is YOU? What other source has established this as fact? Were any shots fired from the woman's gun? Was there videotape of the action that took place in that room? Debating this with you is maddening, because you are evasive and disingenuous in the way you conduct yourself. -azurefly |
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August 15, 2006, 11:18 PM | #94 | |
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It's wrong of us to prejudge the state/cops/DA/investigators and believe that there was a whitewash of these events, and doing so shows that we are unfairly prejudiced and biased against the police, but... it's okay for joab to dismiss the claims of the family because we all know that if they are upheld in court they will all be paid handsomely for the wrong perpetrated against them. The fact that they stand to become rich means they must be lying, right, joab? How is that not hypocrisy on your part, joab? -azurefly |
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August 15, 2006, 11:21 PM | #95 |
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trip20, who says I want to not read the POINTS that a person has made (which I'd be unable to do if I put them on an ignore list)? There are posts by joab that very clearly INSULT, INTENTIONALLY.
I wasn't whining that I had to read them, and sitting here helplessly not knowing that I could "ignore" him. I was pointing out that he is crossing the line of insult repeatedly. If you really can't see it, I'll copy and paste some of them for you, but I'd prefer to not have to waste the time. -azurefly |
August 15, 2006, 11:50 PM | #96 | |
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In addition, if the "POINTS" made by a person are so tainted with "petty snipes and very-thinly veiled insults", why would you want to read them? I suggested the ignore list because you commented on being pretty disappointed joab hadn't been banned. If you're disappointed due to what you feel is moderator inaction, they give you a tool for just that instance. We are also our own moderators in that sense. |
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August 16, 2006, 12:00 AM | #97 | |||||||||
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Whatever "attacking" I have done has been strictly aimed at your arguments, and unlike you, I have not resorted to petty snipes and very-thinly veiled insults of your intelligence.
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If you read any of my posts at all you will find that I think most people are full of crap. And most accounts of events given by one party or the other are basically lies until proved true and even then are still laced with lies or at least misrepresentations, take your posts for instance. As I have said, but you did not bother to read because it does not fit your agenda, I would have reacted the same way if this was a LEO story that everyone was slurping up as gospel. You will also notice that all but my first post have been in response to posts directed at me, if I am maddening to you hit the ignore button. I stand by my original point This one sided article based on quotes by the family and their trial lawyer is not sufficient evidence for the cop bashing that started here. The validity of the story is questionable due to the witnesses that the reporter chose to highlight. I have stood by that point throughout the attempts to paint me as a goose stepping hypocritical sheep I have no more respect for those that think that this article presents any facts than they do for me. Now AzureFly Since you lack the maturity to ignore me, I'll do it for you. I will miss your feeble attempts at my character assassination though
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August 16, 2006, 12:27 AM | #98 | |
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Meanwhile, I freely admit my own bias: 4:30AM no-knock? It's the cops fault simply by the nature of their activity. Sacrificing everyone's rights is not justified, whether the target is a petty recreational drug user or the next 9/11 organizer.
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August 16, 2006, 12:28 AM | #99 | |
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Did a little googling, now it's a fact
When they made their way to the second floor, and into Noel's bedroom, they found her in bed, pointing a handgun back at them. More "fact" When they opened the door, the officers allegedly were met by Cheryl Noel, 44, who was pointing a handgun at them, Vinson said. And the link that DonR101395 asked me for earlier Baltimore County, Maryland police descend on a home in the Dundalk neighborhood at around 5 a.m. on a narcotics warrant. They deploy a flashbang grenade, then quickly subdue the first-floor occupants -- a man and two young adults. Doesn't say that the man was the husband but there were no other men mentioned in the article so draw your own conclusions And from the same link, more "fact" Quote:
What are some of ya'll going to do two seperate and conflicting "facts" about the same event. Would this be a version of an Epimenides paradox
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August 16, 2006, 12:29 AM | #100 | ||
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It has been implied that I am a hypocrite and I believe that it has been implied that I am a liar. It has been stated that I am evasive and disingenuous. That's my dog I was holding those links waiting for someone to call me out on the pointing gun statement (then I lost them again) But now tell me what are you going to do You have two conflicting facts written about the same event. Was she sleeping or wasn't she Was the husband upstairs or down? If down why? Going to work maybe? Waiting on a buyer? Would that be a reason for a early morning raid? Or is this account the false one? Why were all three of the other occupants in possession of drugs? What is a small amount?, Could it be just less than felony weight? What would that be times three, distribution wright perhaps? Or maybe it was just seeds ? Or maybe they didn't have any drugs at all? It just boggles the damn mind now don't it
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Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing Last edited by joab; August 16, 2006 at 01:05 AM. |
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