|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
May 12, 2017, 03:45 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 23, 2014
Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA
Posts: 1,753
|
There are still plenty of gun magazines out there and Montana Mike has some three or four articles appearing on a monthly basis. I always jump to them first even if not that interested in the particular subject matter, but because of his writing style. His book, Lever Guns of the Old West, is certainly a favorite.
__________________
Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? |
May 17, 2017, 09:53 AM | #27 |
Member
Join Date: February 24, 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 31
|
Good grief! How many times does this topic need to be beat to death!
Dead horse is deader than dead. Now lets discuss H110 and W296
__________________
NRA Certified RSO |
May 17, 2017, 10:30 AM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 23, 2014
Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA
Posts: 1,753
|
Well I recently did try H110 instead of 4227 since it seems to be so popular but the fineness of the granules would become lodged between the sliding surfaces of the Dillon 550 powder measure and would require a shutdown to clear the jam. I ended up burning a partial can to get rid of it and went back to 4227. With the same loadings of 14.5 gr of either for the .30 carbine, the powder level of the 4227 can be observed where the powder level of the 110 cannot.
__________________
Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? |
May 17, 2017, 11:58 AM | #29 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,523
|
Quote:
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association |
|
May 17, 2017, 12:31 PM | #30 |
Member
Join Date: February 24, 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 31
|
Just one of a gazillion. Not sure if we can link to other forums here?? I am shelled shocked from "rules" on other forums
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=470152 It is all not going matter eventually anyway. Both powders are made by St Marks Powder (General Dynamics) here in Fl. The technology/chemistry is "old school" too much waste "downstream" the old chemistry is going to be phased out and new "stuff" made. This is per Hodgdon. You know, New and improved
__________________
NRA Certified RSO Last edited by Rule3; May 17, 2017 at 01:07 PM. |
May 17, 2017, 02:21 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
I think it was one of the Hodgdons who said that 231 et al were too popular to discontinue but because of cost and environmental burden would be rather deemphasized.
I don't understand or believe that because the powder distributors have been getting powder of the same nominal grade from different sources all along. If Hodgdon and St Marks/Gendye wanted to, they could undoubtedly use the current "clean" process to make a powder indistinguishable from 231. Just like they are getting the powders in the Clays lineup from IMR/Gendye. I bet Titegroup and CFE Pistol are cheaper to make than 231 but will handle much of its application. They could make 231.1 by splitting the difference in burn rate. |
May 17, 2017, 06:36 PM | #32 |
Member
Join Date: February 24, 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 31
|
Yes, I agree with you on the above. It was a while back that they said that. HP38 and W 231 are very popular (I use a lot of it)
Would seem to be a poor business decision to eliminate one of the most used powders without having a direct replacement. Kinda like Alliant pushing BE 86 like it's the next miracle powder. Would they dare eliminate Unique??
__________________
NRA Certified RSO |
May 17, 2017, 08:35 PM | #33 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,523
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association |
|||
May 17, 2017, 09:33 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 21, 2007
Location: Between CA and NM
Posts: 858
|
Yes, yes they would.
452AA was eliminated. All old powders with downstream waste issues will be eliminated at some point. Why do you think there is so much effort for equivalents to Unique and Bullseye being released in the last 5 years--all crowded in the same burn rate area. |
May 19, 2017, 08:34 AM | #35 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,342
|
Quote:
|
|
May 20, 2017, 08:42 AM | #36 |
Member
Join Date: February 24, 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 31
|
FWIW if anything
Here is what "Hodgdon" said in a e mail (this was in 2015) "Winchester 231 certainly has been hard to get. The plant that makes Winchester powders does not want to make 231 as well as a few other powders. These older technology powders have different chemistry than the new powders and this older chemistry makes it much slower to make powder: basically, you can make about 2.5 times as many pounds of new chemistry powder in the time it takes to make 1 pound of old chemistry powder. During the process of making the old powders, the waste stream created is huge compared to the waste stream of the new chemistry powders. Chemical waste is very expensive to get rid of. So, the plant wants to phase out the old chemistry powders and replace them with new chemistry powders. While they are still making 231, the amount is being reduced and the amount of new powder such as Titegroup and Longshot is being increased. Now, we are kind of stuck in the middle. The market is demanding 231 but the maker is not wanting to produce the powder. The result is, over time, 231 is going to go away. Shooters should begin using other powders as they can. Mike Daly Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants Hodgdon Smokeless Powder IMR Powder Company Winchester Smokeless Propellants GOEX Blackpowder"
__________________
NRA Certified RSO |
May 20, 2017, 02:30 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,583
|
As a long time user of 231 and HP-38 I am switching to TiteGroup for the accuracy, higher velocity, and lower pressures. It is simply a better powder for my 38 Special and 9mm ammo.
|
May 20, 2017, 02:51 PM | #38 |
Member
Join Date: April 15, 2016
Posts: 73
|
It wouldn't surprise me if someday the mfgr. will (if not already) produce a new process powder with the same characteristics as 231/38 and just put it in the same old canisters and never say anything. If it shoots the same, etc. I wouldn't care.
|
May 20, 2017, 03:40 PM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
Precisely.
Not like it hasn't been done before. The AA Powders have been sourced from all over the world. Israel, China, and USA that I know of, but they still have the same label and load data. Hodgdon themselves are now getting Clays etc. from IMR Canada instead of ADI Australia, and 700X, 800X from Alliant instead of IMR. But they call it the same thing. IMR moved from New Jersey to Canada years ago. I doubt all these different powder mills are using the same equipment and process, but they still offer the same grade of powder from wherever. |
May 20, 2017, 11:26 PM | #40 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,523
|
W231 vs. TiteGroup
Quote:
A about three years ago, I bought 5#'s of TiteGroup untested (during the shortage; desperation purchase). I have a little over a # left, and don't plan on getting any more. Don't get me wrong, I found it to be a very consistent performer. It is an excellent propellant for plated bullets. But for lead, not so much. It runs really hot and leads up my barrels. W231 doesn't do that. As far as accuracy goes, I have found that bullet selection is the primary factor in accuracy. If the bullet fits the barrel, it's gonna go straight. I've never thought of one propellant being more accurate than another. (We're talking handguns here - rifles are likely a different story.) As far as velocity goes, when I'm using either W231 or TiteGroup, velocity won't be much of a factor in the application. When velocity becomes an issue, a slower propellant is likely getting the call. IMO, anything TG can do, W231 can do. But not the other way around, necessarily. W231 doesn't melt my lead slugs like TG does. TG runs blazing hot. TiteGroup makes excellent range shooting ammo; and it does it economically and all that. It's good stuff. But W231 it is not. If W231/HP-38 was discontinued, I'd likely turn to AA#2 as the substitute; not that there actually is a substitute for it. In its burn rate range, nothing is better than W231/HP-38. With 11#'s in inventory, it'll be a while before I'll have to worry about.
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association |
|
May 21, 2017, 09:32 AM | #41 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,342
|
Quote:
|
|
May 21, 2017, 10:06 AM | #42 |
Member
Join Date: February 24, 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 31
|
What about AA 2 In the same ballpark (burn speed) as HP 38??
Have not used it myself
__________________
NRA Certified RSO |
May 21, 2017, 10:16 AM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 16, 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,634
|
I don't understand how it can take 2.5 times longer to make and create considerably more waste yet cost less than most powders. There are a few powders cheaper than HP-38, but most cost more and that includes the more recently introduced powders.
|
May 21, 2017, 12:20 PM | #44 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,342
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
May 21, 2017, 12:27 PM | #45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 16, 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,634
|
Sorry for a post agreeing with your position...
|
May 21, 2017, 05:14 PM | #46 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,523
|
AA#2 vs. W231
Quote:
It's a super fine powder, yet kind of fluffy (I know, they rather contradict). Meters second to none. I get excellent results with it in 38 target ammo. Some of the lowest Standard Deviations I've ever recorded was with AA#2. Very consistent burning stuff. Really, about my only complaint with it is that when you turn it way down to pure target levels, it leaves behind a lot of chartreuse colored, sandy semi-spent grains of stuff behind - more of an annoyance than anything. This is also what tells me it's a little slower than W231. Oddly, even when turned way down to this point, the chronograph readings are still amazingly consistent. So yeah. I'm a fan of AA#2. It also works great for 9mm with 115 grain plated bullets - your basic range ammo type of stuff.
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association |
|
May 21, 2017, 05:24 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
All comes out of the same factory now, 231/HP38, Titegroup, AA#2.
I wonder how many production lines they have to turn out all the many grades of Ball powder. |
|
|