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Old February 5, 2005, 11:32 PM   #26
JohnKSa
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Ok, how about a zero effect or nearly zero effect muzzle brake?

One where the sound is exactly the same level or only slightly louder than the report of the rifle WITHOUT the muzzle brake.

In other words, it doesn't reduce the sound of the rifle at all, but it doesn't make it louder like most muzzle brakes do.

So the rifle would be quieter compared to other rifles WITH muzzle brakes but wouldn't be any quieter than it was before you installed the brake.
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Old February 6, 2005, 04:15 AM   #27
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^^^ Works for me. Maybe build something like the one I posted. Since the expansion chamber around the muzzle break is just a tube, make it with lots of holes and sound test it. If it's too loud replace the tube with one with less holes. If it's too quiet drill some more holes real quick. I'd like to know how they measure sound level to be safe. How far from the muzzle, which direction etc.
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Old February 6, 2005, 05:42 AM   #28
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Wouldn't that still be like the XM177 ruling?
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Old February 6, 2005, 11:03 AM   #29
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ok, I admit it too

It was soooo long ago and it no longer exists so I can say I built one and it worked. More precisely my dad and I built it. Dad had a heavy barrel target .22,(winchester M52), we got to talking about silencers. I sent for a couple of books that explained just how they worked. No real plans or dimensions, but that wasn't hard to figure out.

Now you'd think that it would work for any ammo, right. Nope it would ONLY silence .22 high velocity shorts! But THEY sounded like an air rifle! a soft spat was all you heard. We made this for two reasons. We lived in a rural setting on our side of the road, accross from us was a trailer court with old biddys that strongly objected to us shooting anything. We used the .22 to control starlings that would build nests in our martin house long before the martins would arrive.

To work properly a silencer has to be "tuned" to the ammo that will be used with it. To be done properly, you would need an oscilloscope to find out the frequency of the report. Then vary the spacing to catch the peaks of the sine wave. We happened to have the spacing just right for the ammo we had. We got nervous after a while and took it apart. In peices it was no more than scrap steel. About then CCI came out with their mini caps that were quiet enough and quite accurate.

Note; I backspaced some of what I just wrote as being too specific. I don't want to break forum rules, some j-moake might try it themselves and get hurt.
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Old February 6, 2005, 03:15 PM   #30
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When I found that CCI CB's and Colibri were quiet as a pellet gun out of my Savage single-shot, and will still penetrate 1/4" plywood at 20 yards, I quit NEEDING a suppressor for pest control in my neighborhood.

WANTING one is a total different thing. Integral MkII or 10/22, maybe?
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Old February 6, 2005, 03:45 PM   #31
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I have a GemTech for my full auto Colt. It is hard to tell if there is a genuine "muzzle brake" effect going on because 1: The carridge isn't such a big recoiler to begin with and 2: The mass of the silencer, which is substantial relative to the original weapon's configuration, could be taming the felt recoil to begin with.
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Old February 7, 2005, 08:49 AM   #32
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Having spent some time

researching this, as a matter of curiousity, I'll make a coupla comments.

First (I can't figure out how to do a quote):

"To work properly a silencer has to be "tuned" to the ammo that will be used with it. To be done properly, you would need an oscilloscope to find out the frequency of the report. Then vary the spacing to catch the peaks of the sine wave. "

That's simply not 100% true. There's a variety of ways to make these things...Some are not much more complicated than the muffler on your car, and these will perform similarly with most any ammo. They are larger and more unwieldy than the "newer" ones, which are more sophisticated and may be more ammo sensitive. The newer ones that use replaceable parts are much more compact. I won't get into alot of detail, but there's plenty of info available on the web, including numerous design diagrams, of several different "styles" of suppressors.

Second, remember that, if you aren't using subsonic ammo, you'll still get significant noise from the sonic boom of the bullet...Report may be muffled quite a bit, but will still get the "crack" of the bullet breaking the sound barrier.

I've always wanted to try to build one, just to prove I could do it...But, the prospect of a few years in "Club Fed" just doesn't appeal to me.
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Old February 7, 2005, 02:32 PM   #33
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I just found another legal suppressor/brake. Same concept as before but this one doesn't have any exterior ports. As long as you get the paperwork showing that the feds signed off on it then it sounds good to me.

http://web.archive.org/web/199710220...ooting497.html
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Old February 7, 2005, 03:13 PM   #34
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Interesting that BATFE is OK with a semi-effective suppressor, with the key being apparently either total noise reduction, either absolutely or as a percentage, or some minimal floor below which the decibels cannot fall. Probably the former since it says the BATFE tests each caliber made before give it the OK.
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Old February 7, 2005, 04:52 PM   #35
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I talked with a Class 3 dealer last year about this very subject. He said anything that muffled the sound over 2 decibles is considered a suppressor by the Feds. Who knows what went wrong with the XM177 ruling. Maybe the fact that it was for an evil looking black rifle instead of a innocent appearing hunting rifle?
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Old February 7, 2005, 05:14 PM   #36
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Quote:
I talked with a Class 3 dealer last year about this very subject. He said anything that muffled the sound over 2 decibles is considered a suppressor by the Feds. Who knows what went wrong with the XM177 ruling. Maybe the fact that it was for an evil looking black rifle instead of a innocent appearing hunting rifle?
Be careful with advice like that - never let it guide your actions unless you've received confirmation from BATF/NFA. I know of no regulation or advisory opinion issued by BATF/NFA that sets 2dB as the threshhold for regulation. To the contrary, I think they can validly regulate any device with any measurable reduction in SPLs; case on point, the XM177 sound moderator ruling.
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Old February 7, 2005, 05:47 PM   #37
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Agreed. Besides it looks like you could buy one of these approved barrels (with paperwork) for little more than the costs of a muzzle brake and fabbing. So it's not at all worth the risks of it ending up 1db too loud.
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Old February 7, 2005, 10:39 PM   #38
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a Db is significant

Tangential - maybe. nitpicky - maybe as well. But worth knowing, I think.

A raise of 10 Db will make a sound that seems (to humans) about twice as loud as the original sound (it's actually ten times more powerful, but people work in odd ways and the perceived change is different than the actual one). A silencer, then, that lowers a sound by a decibel will make a pretty noticeable difference to the report of a gun, and two even more so. The effects of a subsonic load on top will, of course, make a huge difference.
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Old February 8, 2005, 04:23 PM   #39
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Would anyone know where to find information reguarding the posession/ use of a supressor in the state of Wisconsin?

er... could someone point me in the right direction?

thanks!
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Old February 8, 2005, 04:57 PM   #40
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Bad Dog

Gem-Tech lists Wisconsin as a state where private ownership (non-LEO, non-FFL/SOT) is legal but they do not have a distributor in WI. I'd recommend you try a class 3 dealer in your state. If you can't find one, Jerry Prasser at Recon Ordnance is a well known and respected dealer in the class 3 world and I'd try him (on the Bowers/Subguns recommended dealers list). I've never personally done any business with him, but I've spoken to him on the phone once or twice and he seems like a great guy.

Recon Ordnance Company/Jerry Prasser
P.O. Box 829
Fond du Lac, WI 54936
Phone: (920) 922-1515
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Old February 8, 2005, 05:23 PM   #41
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No friggin way!

That HPGB barrel has silencer wroitten all over it.
OK, I don't know for sure.
But i'd dure like to see the letter from the ATF saying its OK!
Otherwise, I am thinking 'ATF Sting/entrapment attempt'.
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Old February 8, 2005, 05:45 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaggy
Gem-Tech lists Wisconsin as a state where private ownership (non-LEO, non-FFL/SOT) is legal but they do not have a distributor in WI. I'd recommend you try a class 3 dealer in your state. If you can't find one, Jerry Prasser at Recon Ordnance is a well known and respected dealer in the class 3 world and I'd try him (on the Bowers/Subguns recommended dealers list). I've never personally done any business with him, but I've spoken to him on the phone once or twice and he seems like a great guy.
wait, so (unregistered) private ownership of a supressor (silencer) is legal in WI? (I think I read that wrong )...? and what does LEO, SOT stand for (I'm not very "in" on the lingo )
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Old February 8, 2005, 06:56 PM   #43
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First off, so there is no confusion, all suppressors (silencers) except those owned by the US government have to be registered to be legal.

Some states have laws that only allow possession of NFA weapons like suppressors and machineguns by law enforcement officers (LEOs) in the course of their duty (owned by the department, not by the individual officer). Further, some states restrict possession to individuals who have an FFL and SOT (a class 3 gun dealer or manufacturer). Most states, however, allow the average John Q. Citizen (not as an agent of a law enforcement agency, not as a licensed dealer/manufacturer) to own NFA weapons like suppressors and machineguns IFare properly registered under federal law.

You can build or buy a suppressor but there is a bit of paperwork you'll have to do first. I think in WI you can probably also own a machinegun, but it has to be registered and whats known in the business as a "transferable" (made and properly registered prior to May 19, 1986).

First step is to contact your local chief of police, sheriff, or district attorney to sign off on your forms to transfer and possess an NFA weapon. You can see an example of a form 4 (used to buy an NFA weapon from an instate dealer), and a form 1 (used to make an NFA weapon) at www.titleii.com

Your CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) must have jurisdiction over your place of residence - the same county, state, city, municipality, etc. You'll need to have them sign off on the F4 (to buy ) or F1 ( to make) and you'll need to complete the rest of the form in duplicate (TWO original signed copies). Each copy will need a passport sized photo. Also you'll need to get TWO fingerprint cards from your local class 3 dealer or from BATFE and be fingerprinted. make sure you get these from either a class 3 dealer or from BATFE so the cards wil have the proper routing information on them to be processed by the FBI. You'll also need to complete ONE US citizenship certification (also available to download at www.titleii.com). Finally, there is a $200 transfer/making tax whether you make or buy a suppressor. If you ever sell the supresor, another $200 tax will be due.

Get all that paperwork together (TWO form 4's OR TWO form 1's, TWO FBI fingerprint cards, ONE US citizenship certification, ONE check for $200) and send it all to the address on the forms. About 3-4 months later either you (if making your own on a F1) or your dealer (if buying one on a F4) will receive ONE copy of the forms back from BATF with a $200 stamp affixed. You can now either take possession of your suppressor, or start to build your own. Keep the original copy of the form in a safe place (like a safe deposit box) and make several copies to keep with the suppressor at all times. The original copy is your ONLY true proof the suppresor is legal and registered. BATF is suppossed to have a record of every transfer, but there are errors in BATFs database and your copy is the only proof its legal IF BATFs records are in error.

I 'm sure it sounds like a daunting process, but its really not that bad. I've done it more times than I can remember so its like second nature to me. The only possible stumbling block is if your local sheriff, etc. won't sign the forms, but there are legal avenues around that.
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Old February 8, 2005, 07:12 PM   #44
Bad_Dog
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Thank you for the information,

I appreciate your time!

I am assuming that once a supressor is registered local restrictions apply? (like if the county I live in seys that I cant shoot it then I cant shoot it)
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Old February 8, 2005, 07:20 PM   #45
shaggy
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Yup.

All state and local restrictions apply. The law enforcement certification on the F1 or F4 states that the signing official has no reason to believe your possession or use will be in violation of any local laws. Thus if there is some local law prohibiting mere possession, he should let you know when he declines to sign your forms. Use can also be governed by local laws, but in most states gun laws are preempted by the state so every piddly little town can't enact their own crazy gun laws. In some states, I think you can even hunt with suppressors (not sure though, I'm not a hunter).
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Old February 8, 2005, 08:21 PM   #46
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"Legal Silence: The High Performance Gun Barrel (HPGB) is now being manufactured under Rogers's patent by American Safe Arms Inc. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, concerned about any firearm that might infringe on the federal law banning silencers, required ASA to make some changes in design to prevent alteration that might make the rifle even quieter. The Bureau still tests the first barrel of each caliber manufactured."



My guess is they required it to be sealed so nobody can open up the barrel porting. So that makes it a compromise, it's probably not as effecient at recoil reduction as other brakes. The small ports and the lack of a baffle pack would also make it less effective than a suppressor in reducing gas velocity.

I'd also guess that the ASI FAT-BOY barrel has ports (which arn't very effective mounted where they are) in order to get around the HPGB patent.

Worth looking into. If they are legal and effective they should meet my needs perfectly. Recoil reduction without the blast. Maybe, repeat maybe even be 1 Db quieter as I found another website today quoting the 2 Db rule.
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Old February 9, 2005, 08:32 AM   #47
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I still say 'bullcrappola'. nevertheless...

More useful post on my part being to ask: are you interested in actually muffling the noise in the absolute sense? or just the noise YOU perceive?

If its just you, then a long cone-shaped flash 'hider' will direct the blast (and noise) more out and away from you, decreasing the noise you have to suffer through.
Just an idea.
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Old February 9, 2005, 09:42 PM   #48
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1dB is about the smallest difference in power that the human ear can detect. So a silencer that lowers the sound 1dB will make a noticeable difference, but not by much. Every 3dB increase doubles the power.
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