HR 45, SB-2099, etc.

[Tom Servo]

I had to talk down a very frightened elderly gentleman named Conrad yesterday. He approached me clutching an email he'd received and printed out, and he wanted me to clarify it for him.

The email resembled a printout of a Snopes page, complete with fonts and formatting. It claimed to confirm as "true" most of the misinformation we've been hearing about these bills. I've now seen this exact thing twice.

I'd like to find the person responsible and kick them in the shins. This is tremendously irresponsible.

I don't know where it came from, but I am spending an average of an hour a day of face time debunking and explaining this stuff to frightened people. It's getting old.

Please, if you hear someone talking about this, set them straight. More to the point, have them go back to whoever told them these things and tell them not to spread them around.

We know it's bunk. Conrad doesn't. Thousands of people are hearing this, and they're believing it to be true. This is a matter of crying wolf on a national scale, and it distracts us from the endeavor of addressing real threats to the 2nd Amendment as they come up.

------------------

SB-2099 was introduced in 2000, and never reached the floor. This was the one that folks claimed would require us to declare our guns on our income taxes and submit to further taxes on them.

It has not been reintroduced since.

HR 45 is the Blair Holt bill. You should know about this one already. It is over nine months old, and has not received a single co-sponsor. It has been introduced every year since at least 2004, and has never been taken seriously.

[greensteelforge]

When you take the time to question things, this is usually what you find. Any law you could imagine can be proposed, but a proposal is a long way from a law. Some of the most liberal reps on the gun restrictions scale will tell you (if you take the time to stop in and ask them) that most of these laws are just stunts to appease vocal groups in home districts, and they'll never see the light of day because it would bring about a full hearing in the supreme court on the second amendment. Neither party wants to see the existing restrictions on weapons thrown out, so they walk a fine line that keeps the issue divisive, and useful to both every time they come up for an election cycle. The last major firearms legislation (and I do mean major, not waiting periods or background checks, which I think most of us can agree aren't the end of everything) was to restrict the ownership of machineguns, and mass casualty weapons (which couldn't be completely banned either, and haven't since, now you just have to be wealthy to own one legally).

[alloy]

I know a gun store with HR-45 taped on the front door, big font, email format, as if it's going to be passed next week.

Yes it's old.

[Sefner]

I heard about SB 2099 in my local gun shop. The guy even claimed "to know a guy" who saw the actual tax form. The counter help at the gun shop was like "oh yeah this administration will do whatever they want". The worst part about this situation is that I was not in the position to call them out on it (due to my age compared to their's as well as the setting, politeness etc). People who spread this are no different from anti's in the respect that if you point out fact like the OP did, you're met with shenanigans such as "well this administration will do whatever they want", "keep thinking that, that's what they want you to think", "but he saw it right there!", "that's what CNN wants you to believe" or flat out "You're lying".

[AWDstylez]

The problem, as most of you have figured out, is the contingent of paranoid extremists that believe the Obama was sent from Mars to take their guns away. It's these gun nuts that are going to be responsible for eventually losing some gun rights. It seems the same types of people are responsible for a number of other political problems that I guess I'm not allowed to mention. Don't get enlightened about politics, what ever you do!

[vranasaurus]

Don't get enlightened about politics, what ever you do!

Why should we all be so closed minded?

[AWDstylez]

Quote:

"Why should we all be so closed minded?"


I don't know. You tell me.

[Al Norris]

Originally Posted by AWDstylez

It seems the same types of people are responsible for a number of other political problems that I guess I'm not allowed to mention.

Perhaps in general. But read on, please.

Originally Posted by Bud Helms

We have eliminated partisan politics from the board as a legitimate topic of discussion.

We used to have an open discussion forum called, "Legal and Political" (L&P). Oh, it's still here as a read-only archive and child forum of this newer forum.

If you newer members would take the time to browse some of those past threads, you will see the rancor that such partisan political discussion evoked.

During the long run-up to the past Presidential election, it got extremely bad. Invectives were hurled left and right. Emotions took over, to the extent that just about everyone was calling each other names, simply because one person liked one candidate over another candidate. We won't even go into how things got if someone liked any of the Democratic candidates.

Added to this mix, were the conspiracy theorists.

It became so bad, that none of the other moderators wanted to even look at the cesspool that L&P had become.

Then it became worse.

Dave (TheBluesMan) and I had had it. We closed down the forum, September, 2008.

After a long hard look, and many discussions between us, Dave and I started up the current forum: Law & Civil Rights (L&CR). We revamped some rules specific to this new forum. By placing the emphasis on Law & Civil Rights, we hoped to curtail much of the rancor that had prevailed in the old L&P. Strictly partisan politics is still off-limits. Folks using invectives (Demoncrap; Repugnican; etc.) are not tolerated.

We believe that if you can't make your point without the use of slanderous names, then you have no point to make.

By common consent of the members of TFL, threads dealing with conspiracies, are deleted on sight and the offender is often warned. Yet, we make no bones about it. L&CR is perhaps the easiest forum to lose your TFL membership in.

At first, it was by invitation only. We added 44 AMP as a new moderator. By December, we had a core group of around 100 members, who we hoped would be a stabilizing influence on the rest of the members.

In January, we opened the forum to the general membership. Glenn Meyer and Mike Irwin were added to the list of mods for this forum, shortly afterwards.

So far, the new forum has been a limited success.

In general, strictly political threads are still off topic. However...

Originally Posted by Bud

Honest discussions around the Second Amendment ARE permitted as long as they are civil, focused (stay on topic) and don't roll off into political tirades, partisan rants and conspiracy theories based on frightful chain emails that had their beginnings in 1999 (or any other year).

We had had some really meaningful and well written discussions on some political topics. It really comes down to a case by case basis and the opinion of any of the L&CR moderators.

Case in point, this thread. It is political, but serves a very good purpose. All too often newer folks (those new to the whole 2A political scene), fall prey to an awful lot of misinformation and downright lies.

The thread can continue, as long as it stays on topic. That topic was set by the OP.

[AWDstylez]

My point was, the paranoid weirdos that the rest of the world see as the typical gun owner, are also the ones who refuse to listen to reason about things like health care reform... or am I not allowed to mention that? It's these same folks that will be responsible, someday, for sweeping reforms to our second ammendment rights.

So, either learn facts, and stop spouting [sic] talking points or continue to have the tinfoil hat crowd be your spokesmen. If you don't believe me, check out any newspaper blog where a columnist has an anti-gun article, and watch his blog quickly turn into a government conspiracy, anti Obama, "I gots my guns and you can go [sic] " throwing match. This is what the soccer moms see as gun owners.

[Tom Servo]

That topic was set by the OP.

I brought this issue up to discuss one point: it is our responsibility to combat misinformation that may distract us from focusing on real threats.

I've no desire to see this thread devolve into politics.

If the mods think it would help, I've cobbled together a generic form-letter for responding to inquiries about SB2099/HR45. I've forwarded it to everyone who's emailed me about these bills, and it's been posted several other forums.

[Dragon55]

I agree that some folks just get loopy about emails and 'what a guy told me' stories.

And I'm glad that there has been very little interest expressed by enough politicians to get these bills to advance any further than they have.

Thanx Tom for the letter and it's quite a bit better than a cobbled letter.

But....... I also agree we need to stay after politicians in regards to our feelings about 2A. Especially those politicians that waffle or refuse to take a side until they can figure out which way the wind blows. Because...........

...and I've mentioned this before in other threads on similar topics......
Our politicians have in the last 70 or so years:

--outlawed a cold beer or a sip of whiskey
--put honest hard working Americans of Japanese ancestry behind bars
--made the speed limit 55mph...... everywhere!
--wanted to build bridges to nowhere
--and a bunch more crazy even dangerous stuff

So I recognize we don't need to be constantly paranoid spread silly information but we should never underestimate what 600 +/- people can do to 300,000,000.

[AWDstylez]

I'm glad you guys get it. Some would prefer to sit in their bunker and worry about whether the government is going to take away their guns, and opose any potentially good idea they come up with, just because any government idea is bad.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by AWDstylez

...the paranoid weirdos that the rest of the world see as the typical gun owner, are also the ones who refuse to listen to reason about things like health care reform...

But let's be clear please. Listening to reason does not necessarily mean reaching the same conclusion as you or the Administration.

[Al Norris]

Tom, if you would be so kind, go ahead and post your formatted response letter.

[thallub]

I brought this issue up to discuss one point: it is our responsibility to combat misinformation that may distract us from focusing on real threats.

I've no desire to see this thread devolve into politics.

If the mods think it would help, I've cobbled together a generic form-letter for responding to inquiries about SB2099/HR45. I've forwarded it to everyone who's emailed me about these bills, and it's been posted several other forums.

+1

Excellent post and a very good idea. I have been combatting this misinformation on several other forums since early this year. I routinely get called names and am often accused of being an anti-gunner. Yesterday one guy posted this SB2099/HR 45 misinformation in three different places on another forum. When I post the Snopes debunking link some of the folks who are pushing this conspiracy accuse Snopes of lying.

There are now some variations on the theme. Some are now claiming that the POTUS implemented this stuff by executive fiat.

[publius42]

Snopes is perhaps not the best resource for this purpose. Instead, link to official sources.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:h.r.00045:

H.R.45
Title: To provide for the implementation of a system of licensing for purchasers of certain firearms and for a record of sale system for those firearms, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Rush, Bobby L. [IL-1] (introduced 1/6/2009) Cosponsors (None)
Latest Major Action: 2/9/2009 Referred to House subcommittee. Status: Referred to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security.

OK, former Black Panther, AWOL soldier, and firearms convict Bobby Rush introduced this bill (yet again) in January, and in February it was shuffled off to a committee. It will stay there until he finds at least hundred or so cosponsors, which of course he can't.

[Tom Servo]

I have this printed out, and I hand it to people who ask about these bills. I also cut-and-paste it as a generic reply to the 10-15 emails I receive a day about this matter:

You do not, and will not, have to report your guns on your income tax forms.

This is at best a misunderstanding, and at worst, an outright lie. SB-2099 was introduced in 2000 by Senator Jack Reed. It never went anywhere, and it does not exist in the current legislature.

There is no Federal licensing or registration scheme pending on handguns.

H.R. 45 (also referred to as the “Blair Holt Act”) is dead. Congressman Bobby Rush has been pushing this since 2000, and it has never gained any traction in the legislature. The current version has not accrued one single co-sponsor since its (re)introduction in January.

Please do not spread rumors of these bills around. If anyone tries to tell you these bills are a threat, please correct them.

This is the equivalent of “crying wolf,” and it distracts all of us from the endeavor of protecting our Second Amendment rights from real threats, should they arise.

[44 AMP]

The problem is, fear sells. And everybody knows it. So people trying to make a buck (and not looking beyond that) will promote every possible thing to scare us into buying, or donating.

And it works this way on both sides of the issue.

It seems that no gun control bill ever goes completely away. Somebody keeps bringing them back, time after time. Most of them don't even begin to go anywhere. And exactly right, we need to keep informed, so we can focus our efforts against those that actcually do stand a possibility of going somewhere.

Good job, good letter. Keep up the good work. We all need to be able to combat the disinformation when it surfaces. A thankless, never ending task, but its the price of liberty.

[thallub]

Tom Servo:

Your excellent message is short and to the point. One humble suggestion: Change legislature to read congress.

[vranasaurus]

When it comes to gun control legislation we must be vigilant and not hysterical.

There will always be elected officials who wish to restrict gun rights. They will keep getting elected but as long as we are watchful we should see any real threats that pop up.

[trigger happy]

friend of mine sent this to me yesterday

Now 'all Guns' must be listed on your next (2010) tax return!


As if we didn’t have enough to get upset about!
If you have a gun, I hope it isn't registered!

Senate Bill SB-2099 will require us to put on our 2009 1040 federal tax form all guns that you have or own. It will require fingerprints and a tax of $50 per gun.
| This bill was introduced on Feb.. 24, 2009, by the Omama staff. BUT . . this bill will only become public knowledge 30 days after the new law becomes effective ! This is an amendment to the Internal Revenue Act of 1986. This means that the Finance Committee has passed this without the Senate voting on it at all. Trust Obama ? ..... you must be kidding !
The full text of the IRS amendment is on the U.S. Senate homepage,U.S. Senate <http://www.senate.gov/> You can find the bill by doing a search by the bill number, SB-2099.
You know who to call; I strongly suggest you do. Please send a copy of this e-mail to every gun owner you know

Obama's Congress is now starting on the firearms confiscation bill. If it passes, gun owners will become criminals if you don't fully comply.

It has begun . . . Whatever Obama's secret Master Plan is....this is just the 'tip of the iceburg!'
Very=2 0Important for you to be aware of a new bill HR 45 introduced into the House. This is the Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sale Act of 2009.|

Even gun shop owners didn't know about this because the government is trying to fly it under the radar as a 'minor' IRS revision, and, as usuual, the 'political' lawmakers did not read this bill before signing and approving it !

To find out about this - go to any government website and type in HR 45 or Google HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act of 2009. You will get all the information.

Basically this would make it illegal to own a firearm - any rifle with a clip or ANY pistol unless:

-It is registered -You are fingerprinted -You supply a current Driver's License -You supply your Social Security # -You will submit to a physical & mental evaluation at any time of their choosing -Each update - change or ownership through private or public sale must be reported and costs $25 - Failure to do so you automatically lose the right to own a firearm and are subject up to a year in jail. -There is a child provision clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision. Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18. -They would have the right to come and inspect that you are storing your gun safely away from accessibility to children and fine is punishable for up to 5 yrs. in prison.

If you think this is a joke - go to the website20and take your pick of many options to read this. It is long and lengthy. But, more and more people are becoming aware of this. Pass the wor dalong. Any hunters in your family pass this along

This is just a "termite" approach to complete confiscation of guns and disarming of our society to the point we have no defense - chip away a little here and there until the goal is accomplished before anyone realizes it.

This is one to act on whether you own a gun or not..

Please.. copy and send this out to EVERYONE in the USA , whether you support the Right to Bear Arms or are for gun control. We all should have the right to choose.

[Al Norris]

Originally Posted by trigger happy

friend of mine sent this to me yesterday

So? Did you send your friend the form message that Tom wrote, just above? If not, why not?

[OuTcAsT]

So? Did you send your friend the form message that Tom wrote, just above? If not, why not?

`

Exactly! The only way to combat such dis-information is with the truth. I copied and pasted Tom's message into my computer, and saved it for just such an occurrence.

[elkman06]

The less than informed continue to post such rubbish at my place of work..with attitude no less. I correct as possible, unfortunately, it being a union plant and me being management, I have to walk a fairly thin line on such things. elkman06

Best resource, tell them to actually follow the links provided.

[LouPran]

I received an Email on this, this morning.

I knew rather than jump to any conclusion, I could depend on finding calm, informed common sense answers here.

I'll be sending a reply back to the 30 or so people this alarmed this morning.