What do you do in a mugging? - Page 3

revjen45 · January 19, 2007, 08:12 PM

I don't keep $20s in ready drop position- too easy to lose one.

**JohnKSa** · January 19, 2007, 09:43 PM

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I've heard about that, but does this not vary from state to state?

I don't know all the state laws and I would definitely recommend that you consult a legal expert in your area. In addition, if you're so inclined, many states post their statutes online.

I will say that I don't recall any reading any state law (again, I'm certainly not saying I've read them all) that specifies that the attacker must be armed. Only that the defender must reasonably believe that deadly force is the only option for preventing his immediate death or serious injury.

chadwimc · January 19, 2007, 10:21 PM

During this past summer, I was approached while pumping gas at 0300. I was trapped between the company truck, the pumps and three poor, misunderstood yoots. My first response to the one doing the talking was **** you, ******(expletive racial slur). Two of 'em broke off whatever was about to happen. The third still wanted to persue the strong arming. Until he saw the Taurus in my hand.
They are predators. Just like on National Geographic, they are looking for a weak target. Unless you're being accosted by a mental patient, attitude is a big part of the fight...

Tim Burke · January 21, 2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadwimc

My first response to the one doing the talking was **** you, ******(expletive racial slur).

No need for that. If you do have to shoot someone, you don't want to help the media turn it into a race based assault.
Attitude is important, but you want it to always be clear that you are the good guy.

whip1 · January 21, 2007, 02:33 PM

There are laws here that address that. If two guys get in a fight, it's assualt. If a racial slur is used, it a hate crime. The penealty for a hate crime is much higher for assualt.

revjen45 · January 21, 2007, 08:58 PM

That's why whatever you say in response is in a low quiet growl, not a shout. You can always say the witnesses misunderstood you, and the perp gets the message loud and clear. Clarity of diction is way behind expression of deep down rage and lack of fear if you have time to talk before you have to shoot. One of my gun buds replied with "I'm not the guy." Perp:"What?" Gun Bud: "I'm not the guy you want to f- with," pulling back his jacket just enough to show a Commander. Perp: "I gotta go now" as he leaves burn marks on the pavement and a cloud of heel dust upon exit. Reading the laws of the state of WA indicates that I can carry my sword cane too, as long as I don't use it to threaten or intimidate innocent people. How handy for an old Fudd who can't run or duke it out.

chadwimc · January 21, 2007, 11:21 PM

I'm sorry. "Good evening, young man" just invites more trouble. I'll take my chances. They've already targeted me. I don't have a thing to lose...

threegun · January 22, 2007, 06:42 AM

Doug,

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Pulling your gun should only be done when you are sure of his intent.

Might be to late then. There are ways to pull covertly.

As for sounding wimpy vs possibly giving a bad witness to the police I prefer sounding wimpy. Actually it isn't sounding wimpy unless your voice is wimpy. I guarantee you will understand clearly when I say leave me alone I don't have any money followed by don't rob me. I think you get the impression that the above is said in a cowering please mister robber leave me alone. I swear I don't have any money sir. Oh my get away you brute help help help. Totally wrong dude. My body language and verbal cadence is just as confident and forceful as if I was using more violent words. The only difference is if there are witnesses they will be friendly ones. Do what works for you but understand that if you do have to shoot, that bum you don't see killing a bottle of mad dog 20/20 will be in court saying exactly what you said to the jury.

Exactly what will you say in this situation. The guy is approaching (what do you say) the guy fails to comply (what do you say now) the guy continues unarmed and very passive basically politely ignoring you but entering your personal space (what do you say now).

03Shadowbob · January 22, 2007, 03:39 PM

I have had this scenario happen to me on a few occassions due to what I used to do for a living and when someone asked me for change which happened every week almost, I told them to tap dance for me and I'd give them my change if they did. I never got mugged or had anyone lay a hand on me. Not sure if it's because my size, my crazy request in response to their crazy request (crazy white boys are not ones to mess with just as Chris Rock

), or because of my confident look of I will kick your a$$ across the parking lot..but something worked. And anyone who thinks just because they have been trained in Kung-fu, Moogoo, whatever that they can eliminate all threats with their hands, is asking for a whippin'.

**JohnKSa** · January 22, 2007, 11:06 PM

Quote:

I'm sorry. "Good evening, young man" just invites more trouble. I'll take my chances. They've already targeted me. I don't have a thing to lose...

Methinks that there is a HUGE variety of responses that fall somewhere between "Good evening, young man" and a string of expletives and racial epithets.

Quote:

If a racial slur is used, it a hate crime. The penealty for a hate crime is much higher for assualt.

It may also give a prosecutor a foothold to suggest that you were motivated by something other than the desire to save your life.

BillCA · January 22, 2007, 11:58 PM

Observations & comments;

First, it has happened to me while unarmed and it was pretty nerve wracking. But my approach was to tell the guy "Sorry, I just spent it" (change) while continuing to walk, angling away from him. When he persisted asking for cash, I told him "I ain't got enough to be worth it." and turned to face him, while still moving towards my truck He paused and apparently tried to make up his mind whether to leave or finish the job. He made the wrong decision, tried to close in around the truck. I pulled out the knife I keep in the door map pocket (a Gerber Mk-I combat knife), told him GET BACK, NOW! while bringing the knife into a low ready. He looked at the knife, then me, then decided to walk away calmly. I watched his hands the whole time, prepared to go for cover.

Typically, I keep about $8 in a cheap money clip in a pocket for such occasions. Fold the $5 bill on the outside and the $1 bills add some thickness. If tossed near the BG's feet, you can retreat, move to cover/concealment when he looks/bends down or draw your weapon while he's distracted.

Unfortunately, I've seen a number of cases where a BG will simply try to cold-cock the victim and take his belongings. This usually involves the victim not being aware of who's getting close to him or the closeness being "normal" for the circumstances (such as in a waiting line).

Well lit areas are no guarantee of safety, even if cameras are evident. All it does is give you better visibility of what he looks like and what he may be doing with his hands.

The best defense is to keep aware of who is nearby -- within rock-throwing distance as we used to call it. Inside that range they can easily run at you and make an attack before you are quite sure that's what is happening.

Tim Burke · January 23, 2007, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Methinks that there is a HUGE variety of responses that fall somewhere between "Good evening, young man" and a string of expletives and racial epithets.

Concur.
A forceful "GO AWAY!" or "LEAVE ME ALONE!" will call attention to the incident, identify you as the good guy, and indicate that you aren't going to be a pushover, without escalating the incident or confusing the witnesses. An aggressive vulgar response may persuade a normally non-violent panhandler to fight, or may force the armed robber to escalate to save face. What will witnesses say? "Well, the first thing I knew, this guy was cursing this other guy, and the next thing I knew, he'd shot him down like a dog."
Do what you want, but I think "Good evening, young man" delivered in the right tone of voice and accompanied by the right body language will serve you better than expletives and racial epithets.

fattsgalore · January 23, 2007, 06:11 PM

If he has the draw on me with a gun i give everything including my shoes; car; etc. None of that craps worth your life or the safety of others.
He comes at me with a knife i put him down like a dog.
No warning shot.
I've been in situations were bums or a stranger comes up to me. I have told them in these exact words
"Yo back up, just back up." or "I'm gonna leave. I don't want no trouble." I of course said this with my hand on my waist. Don't brandish the weapon. Your hand on your waist, no one will mistake it for anything else but i got a gun.

It's more legal to kill someone(self defense of course) then it is to pull your piece and tell them to back up. Cop passes by your going to jail and he's going home. I knew someone that was facing three years for firing a warning shot when he was about to get jumped by a gang of drunk dudes.
As of October 2006 in Florida you no longer have to escape or retreat you can now stand your ground.

Powderman · January 24, 2007, 10:38 AM

There is one thing that it seems a lot of posters are forgetting, and that is the 21 foot (7 yard) rule.

It has been proven, time and time again, that a person who is within 7 yards WILL MAKE CONTACT with you if they want--even after being shot.

Thus, your safety margin is 7 yards.

My reaction to an attempted mugging was this:

I noticed the person as I walked through the lot, toward my truck. I make it a habit to scan the parking lot before I set out, so I noted this guy who was about 40 yards as I entered the lot. (BTW, this was in Seattle, by Pike Place Market.)

As I started walking toward my truck, I noted that this guy started moving, too--and that he was moving parallel with me. First alarm flag up. I still had plenty of distance, so I did a quick second scan of the area--no one else. OK, now this guy had my undivided attention.

I slowed down, got to my truck and put it to my back, waiting to see what the guy was going to do. He gave a cursory look around, and then headed straight for me.

At about 15 yards out, I said in a firm voice, "That's far enough. What do you want?" He mumbled something, and continued his approach.

Now, the alarm bells were ringing loud. I was turned weak-side toward him, so he did not see me quietly unholster my Colt. As he continued, I said "That's close enough, stop NOW!" with a bit of a snap to the last word. This brought him up short. He stopped, just outside the 21 foot line. He looked at me; now I could see that he was almost certainly tweaking (possibly on meth or another stimulant). He said, "Hey, buddy, can you spare a dollar?"

I said, "Sorry, I'm broke." I maintained my position, Colt behind my leg. He looked at me, then glanced around the lot again. When his eyes met mine, they had assumed a hard, feral look. Oh crap, I thought...now it comes.

His hand went into his pocket and came out with a folding knife, which he opened. That was all the notification I needed; he crossed the line at that instant from Ronco Tweek-O-Matic to deadly threat.

I backed up one step and brought the Colt up, locked up in a Chapman stance. In my best parade ground voice, I told him, "Police Officer! Drop the weapon now, or you WILL be shot! Get on the ground, RIGHT NOW!"

The second he saw the Colt, however, his whole attitude changed. He immediately assumed the "Ah, ****!!" demeanor, and I swear he burnt rubber off his shoes, he took off so fast!

Did I chase him? Oh, HELL no! He took off, which was good enough for me. A quick call got three of Seattle's finest up there post haste. I gave them a description of the guy, and one of the responding officers said that it fit the general description of a guy they wanted on a variety of warrants. I wrote out a statement; and since I had drawn my sidearm, I gave a quick call to my department and talked to the on duty LT, describing my use of force.

The only thing different from anyone else going through the scenario was the fact that I am a cop. Do NOT let anyone cross the 21 foot line--even if you land good COM hits, they can still slip a blade into you.

If they break off and run, so much the better. If they freeze in place, then get in your car, still covering them at gunpoint and get out of there. Do NOT try to arrest or detain them. However, if they get on the ground, cover them from a good distance away and call the police. Give a good description of yourself, and stay on the line with dispatch. When the officers show up, re-holster your firearm IMMEDIATELY, and make sure that the responding officers see your hands.

Do call the police ASAP, and let them know what happened.

PS: By the way, it might be noteworthy to know that as I presented the weapon, I snapped the safety off, but kept my finger indexed. I was amped up at that point--and putting your finger on the trigger of a semiauto pistol with a 4 lb. trigger in that state is NOT something you want to do, unless you are going to shoot immediately.

Covert Mission · January 30, 2007, 05:51 PM

A couple thoughts, FWIW:

1- When all you've got is a hammer (i.e., Glock) then everything looks like a nail (i.e., something to shoot). Have other tools in your toolbox. Have plan A,B,C etc for these scenarios. Have a flashlight (I carry an E2E Surefire always) along with a folder and a cellphone when I'm armed or not. Be prepared to go for the proper tool. Also, be prepared to be a good witness, rather than intervening, if necessary. More cops have been killed off-duty in NYC than on duty in some years. No backup, no radio, no vest. Sometimes you just can't be Superman.

2- Determine the threat as best you can, but you still may be wrong. Real, or imagined? Maybe the guys actually does just want some change. At 0-dark-thirty, plan for the worst and hope for the best. Disengage, retreat (and live to fight another day), prepare to re-engage as needed. Put some distance, and hard cover between you and the potential threat. Either way, they'll have a harder time getting to you, and you have cover if they have a gun, or a knife even (and the 21' rule is really 30', imho...take it seriously). Use your command voice: "Listen, assh*le, back off now. I am legally armed, and will use force to defend myself. Go away now." Start out with hurting his feelings: "No, I don't have any change. Go away." Predators like the weak and infirm (and are usually cowards), so don't be that. Let them know you're prepared to take it to the max.

3- OODA Loop. Observe, Orient, Decide, then Act. Stay ahead of the power curve, and your possible assailant, by being aware (observe), anticipating what is happening or might happen (orient), having a plan for those potential situations (decide), and then acting as required . Always be in at least condition yellow when out, and ready to go to orange/red. Most "sheeple" are wandering around oblivious in condition white. They are lunch. Be aware of your surroundings. You pull up at night to a Stop 'n Rob...look around the lot. What's the clerk doing? How many people in the store? Are there cars idling in the lot? Who's in them? Situational awareness. Pan 'n scan all the time. It's not paranoia. Watch a cat...they're always looking. They even nap with one eye cracked. someone asked Clint Smith, "Why do you always carry a gun? Are you paranoid?" He deadpanned, "Why should I be paranoid...I have a gun."

Be safe.

rantingredneck · January 30, 2007, 06:28 PM

I've had two hairy situations come up and here's how I dealt with each

1) I had just purchased my wife's engagement ring and had to take it to another jeweler to be sized (where I bought it contracted this out to the other). I went in and got the work done and came back out. It was daylight but a rough part of Durham, NC. As I got in my truck I locked my door (automatic thing that I always do). As I started my truck I see a guy in my side mirror, he's approaching from the rear and trying his best to avoid the mirror but failing. He gets to my window and knocks on it. If you lookup "crackhead" in the dictionary you'll know what he looked like. This guy was bugged out and real twitchy. I shook my head "no", and put the truck in reverse. He steps up against the door and tries the handle with a determined "I'm gonna get in there" kinda look on his face. At this point if I'd tried to back out of the tight parking space I was in I would've probably run over him or at least his foot. So instead I reached under my seat and retrieved my 9mm where I'd left it when I went in the CCW unfriendly store. I did not point it at him, but laid it in my lap with my hand still on it and my best "Do we really want to go there?" look on my face. He immediately put both hands in the air and backed up. I don't know what he was expecting to happen but it obviously wasn't to see me with a gun.

2) I was in a mall parking lot in the same part of Durham (Yes I've since stopped going there). I was reaching into my car across the driver's seat to put some packages in the passenger seat when I "sense" someone approaching. I slipped my head and upper body back out of the car and my left hand (I'm right handed BTW) found my 9mm under my seat. I didn't draw but left my hand where it was. As I turned and looked at the guy he kinda startled like he wasn't expecting me to see him coming. I notice that his right hand is out of view behind his hip. I also notice that he's with a woman whose car is stopped right behind mine blocking me in. He immediately started on some spiel about how he'd been robbed the day before in that very parking lot and needed some money to get back to Virginia and he said it happened "Right over there" (pointing) and really was trying to get me to turn away and look over my shoulder. All the while he's still inching and angling forward. I'm still crouched inside my open door with my left hand under the seat and I'm kinda stuck. Can't back up, can't get into the car because I'd have to turn my back and would never make it, not to mention that there's a car right behind mine even if I got in and got the door closed/locked. I yelled "STOP" as loud as I could. At which several people nearby stopped and looked at both of us. At that point he stopped and shut up for a minute. I then said, "Turn around and go back to your vehicle, slowly. I've got nothing for you that you want." I guess he realized then that my left hand was out of view for a reason. He backed up the way he came and got in his car. I guess I'll never know and will always wonder what he had behind his hip. Either way I didn't want to find out the hard way. After they pulled away I sat there and let my heart get down to a normal rhythm before I could even back out of the parking space.

As to how I'd handle the hypothetical situation in the OP. I tend to avoid being out in the wee hours of the morning if at all possible. If I have to be, I'm armed and usually will have it in my hand in a pocket as I'm walking to my car. I'd tell the guy to back off all the while maintaining as much space between him and me as possible. Whether he's got a knife or a gun, he's dangerous. Knife fighting is ugly business. I'm pretty handy with a blade and with empty hands, but I'd rather take a gun to a knife fight than to go empty handed or with a blade myself. I prefer every advantage and will do everything possible to make sure I have it. Hopefully the BG get the point and go after easier prey. Most criminals are lazy, that's why they're criminals. They prefer soft targets when possible. That's not to say that I believe that is an iron clad rule. There are no absolutes in life........

BTW, sorry I wrote a book here........

Haterade · January 30, 2007, 09:25 PM

If I'm getting gas at 130 in the morning, I'm at least going to to a Quick-Trip. They are lit up like a football game and there are usually tons of people there (probably for that reason). I hope that situation wouldn't come up there. If it did, I dunno... guess I'll worry about it if it happens. But, I surely wouldn't use some single-pump rinky-dink gas station after midnight, unless I was in the middle of the desert or something.

revjen45 · January 31, 2007, 07:17 PM

Pumping gas doesn't take both hands. When I'm gassing up I have one hand in my pocket if you know what I mean (and I don't mean pocket pool).

Lurper · February 9, 2007, 11:48 AM

The first time he asks for change, I would say "sorry bro" and put my hand on my pistol. At this point it doesn't matter what he does, I am going to prevail. This removes most potential problems like pistol getting hung up on clothes, etc.

If he persists, then I would draw and keep the pistol at a low ready and tell him to leave now (I know someone is going to say that is brandishing, but given the setting and situation, most cops wouldn't question it - besides the only desirable outcome is that I live another day). If he walked away, I would move behind my vehicle (if I wasn't already) and keep it between he and I. When he was out of sight, I would jump in and drive away. If he continued, I would yell "stop" as loud as I could and if there were other people around, I would yell "please call 911, this man is threatening my life." If he took another step forward, I would align the sights C.O.M. and yell (again so any spectators could hear) "you are threatining me, please don't come any closer or I will be forced to defend myself." If I could do it safely, I would back up toward the store and all the way inside if necessary. At some point, he is either going to stop or get shot. Either way, I live. I can deal with whatever consequences if any, later on.

If he pulls a weapon, draw and kill him. Contrary to what some have posted, you can draw and hit someone who has the drop on you before they can fire (I don't want to rekindle what was a rather lengthy debate several months ago), if you have that level of competency. If not, then don't, but have a realistic idea of your skill level. That should dictate what the response will be.

Other observations:
If you haven't thought about this type of situation even down to the details like what you should say to the assailant or the police in the aftermath, you should.

Less than lethal response isn't necessary, nor can it guarantee the desired outcome. Pepper spray isn't dependable, neither are Tasers (Rodnkey King is a perfect example). Remember, there are a lot of steps before you end up in jail. The state has to decide if there is ample evidence that you committed a crime, they have to decide if there is enough evidence to convict, they have to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that your life was not in danger before you are convicted. Yes, it could be costly, yes it will adversely impact you life, but life is the key word in that sentence since the alternative is to die. I am willing to take that chance, whether you are or not is up to you.

Hollering racial slurs, inflammatory, or degrading remarks will only serve to harm you in the big picture. If you decide to shoot someone, you should always strive to be righteous. If you have not decided to shoot someone, you should not have your hand on your pistol or perhaps not even carry one.

Your mind is your most powerful weapon. Develop situational awareness. In this scenario, we are past the point where S.A. leads to avoidance.

Know your skill level, if you can't hit a target at 10 yards from your carry holster in under 1.5 seconds, either get more training or try a different rig. Either way, know what you are capable of. Not every situation will unfold as slowly as this scenario would.

The 21 ft rule is garbage. First, it is impractical in real life. You can't draw or even assess everyone who crosses that line. Second, the main reason the 21 ft rule was created was to highlight what can happen when someone is within that distance (Tuellar). With proper training that distance is halved, Tuellar's point was that someone can close that distance in 1.5 seconds, so you need to be able to hit your target in that amount of time.

Always maintain control of the situation. That way you effect the outcome. Compliance does not automatically guarantee survival. Many victims have been shot or otherwise harmed after complying with their assailant. If you are in control, you dictate the pace and course.

Again, play these things out in your head. It can pay off in spades when/if the situation arises in real life.

My more than .02's worth.

Powderman · February 10, 2007, 12:46 AM

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The 21 ft rule is garbage. First, it is impractical in real life. You can't draw or even assess everyone who crosses that line.

Uh, okay.

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If he pulls a weapon, draw and kill him. Contrary to what some have posted, you can draw and hit someone who has the drop on you before they can fire

Umm hmm. Care to demonstrate?

Lurper · February 10, 2007, 02:06 AM

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Quote:
The 21 ft rule is garbage. First, it is impractical in real life. You can't draw or even assess everyone who crosses that line.

Uh, okay.

So what you're saying powder is that you either will draw on everyone who enters the 21 ft zone or that you assess everyone who enters. Yeah, try that in a shopping center or even inside a convenience store. Again it is not practical. Too many people cite the 21 ft rule without even understanding where it came from. Tuellar used it as a measure of time. A person with a knife can close that distance in 1.5 seconds, therefore you need to be able to hit your target twice in that time span. But his real purpose was to illustrate to the L.E. community the importance of drawing your weapon before there is a threat - you only have to read his article to discover that.

Quote:

Quote:
If he pulls a weapon, draw and kill him. Contrary to what some have posted, you can draw and hit someone who has the drop on you before they can fire

Umm hmm. Care to demonstrate?

I posted videos last year and if I get a chance I will make some more. Action is faster than reaction. The closer the assailant is, the greater sucess you will have. If they are farther than arm's length it becomes more difficult. At that distance, I can hit the target in anywhere from .5 to .7 seconds depending on the holster. The average person will take .25 to .30 seconds just to recognize that you are doing something let alone identify it as threatening. More time lapses (another .2 - .3 seconds) as they decide to shoot or not. It takes even more time for them to reacquire you (since you don't just stand there like a statue). As you draw you either drop, move, slap their gun away or any combination. You can even set it up by using a diversion like looking over their shoulder and saying something like "Officer, thank god you are here." At close range, you don't even need to present the pistol, as soon as it clears leather - let 'er rip. First, you'll have to get someone to show you the proper technique. Then, you'll have to practice until you are proficient with it. If you haven't achieved a master class level of proficiency then don't even try it.

Here is a simple demonstration you can conduct for yourself:
Have a friend hold his finger to your head. Tell him to holler bang as soon as he percieves you move. Either film it or have an observer note where his hand is relative to your head when he says bang. Stand there for a second, then drop to your knees as quickly as you can. Or move forward, back or diagonally, slap the gun, use distractions. Try them all and you will see for yourself. If the assailant is facing you with the gun right in your face (or torso even) turn sideways and step toward him on the outside of the arm the gun is in and he can no longer even bring it to bear. There are many effective variants. But like shooting skill itself, you need to not just learn it, but practice it and visualize using it in your mind.

Powderman · February 10, 2007, 02:34 AM

Friend, I don't doubt your experience or your intention....

but I will say this.

Training is always a good thing; practice in the gym/dojo/dojang/home is also good. It is true that you will react in the manner in which you train.

But I will tell you this: Everything that looks good on paper or in the gym tends to fare much differently in real life. Your best intentions can turn to desperation when confronted with a situation where you KNOW that your life hangs in the balance.

Center of mass hits do not always stop. Your best martial arts strike, joint lock, immobilization technique or counter holds mean nothing to someone who has just taken a good meth hit.

And your first line of defense is always a good offense. When outside, it is actually fairly to discern between someone who is actually approaching to ask directions and someone who is approaching to harm you.

And, the 21 foot rule is a MINIMUM safe distance. And no, you don't "draw down" on everybody in your space; only those who have demonstrated intent and show the capacity to kill you or cause you great bodily harm.

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The average person will take .25 to .30 seconds just to recognize that you are doing something let alone identify it as threatening. More time lapses (another .2 - .3 seconds) as they decide to shoot or not.

We're not talking about the average person here. We're talking about the average armed robber.

The average armed robber already has a history of violent assault; he or she has crossed that line, frequently more than once.

The average armed robber compared to the average law abiding citizen is like comparing a great white shark to a tuna.

The average armed robber is NOT guided or fed by the milk of human kindness. And they are NOT your average person.

These people are usually athletic--more so than you or I. They frequently have already made up their mind to HURT or KILL you before your encounter even begins. The hurt part frequently comes first, to induce fear--not just being scared, but mind and body numbing, paralyzing fear.

You try to draw on an armed robber who has the drop on you, and I guarantee you with almost total certainty that you WILL catch a bullet.

Thus, your best defense is to be aware and alert--Condition orange. Know who is around you, and who is able to hurt you. Be aware of your surroundings and be ready to take action, fight or flee when applicable.

Lurper · February 10, 2007, 10:16 AM

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Training is always a good thing; practice in the gym/dojo/dojang/home is also good. It is true that you will react in the manner in which you train.

I agree, the problem is that most gun owners don't train at all. Also, along with training in technique you need to train your mind as well.

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Everything that looks good on paper or in the gym tends to fare much differently in real life. Your best intentions can turn to desperation when confronted with a situation where you KNOW that your life hangs in the balance.

Why is it that people want to assume that 1. everyone when confronted with a life threatening situation is going to be scared? 2. that fear somehow diminishes thought, coordination, skill, etc.?

Neither is true. Having BTDT several times, I don't ever recall being scared and every time it happened, my senses seemed hyper-acute. Also, several of my friends (LEO and military) say the same thing. Usually as the situation unfolds quickly, you don't have time to be scared. That also illustrates the importance of mental training. If you already know your response in your mind, you don't have to try to figure it out while you are in the situation.

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Center of mass hits do not always stop. Your best martial arts strike, joint lock, immobilization technique or counter holds mean nothing to someone who has just taken a good meth hit.

True, which is the reason I don't advocate fighting with them. It is also the reason I train people to fire several shots, not just one. Fire until the attacker stops the attack.

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And your first line of defense is always a good offense. When outside, it is actually fairly to discern between someone who is actually approaching to ask directions and someone who is approaching to harm you.

The first sentance is excellent, but the type of thinking in the rest of the paragraph will get you killed. Six people walk past you on the sidewalk, a guy opens the door for you as you enter the store. Can you really honestly say that you can easily assess the intent of everyone who comes within 21 ft of you? How is it easy to discern? Do all criminals wear criminal badges or signs? Are they all tweakers, gang bangers, addicts? No one with ill-intent ever dresses or looks like you and I?

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And, the 21 foot rule is a MINIMUM safe distance. And no, you don't "draw down" on everybody in your space; only those who have demonstrated intent and show the capacity to kill you or cause you great bodily harm.

Again, you'd have to show me how you can practice that rule all day every day. Also, intent usually isn't demonstrated until the attack has already begun, capacity may not be demonstrated at all or until it's too late.

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We're not talking about the average person here. We're talking about the average armed robber.

The average armed robber already has a history of violent assault; he or she has crossed that line, frequently more than once.

The average armed robber compared to the average law abiding citizen is like comparing a great white shark to a tuna.

The average armed robber is NOT guided or fed by the milk of human kindness. And they are NOT your average person.

These people are usually athletic--more so than you or I. They frequently have already made up their mind to HURT or KILL you before your encounter even begins. The hurt part frequently comes first, to induce fear--not just being scared, but mind and body numbing, paralyzing fear.

While some of what you say is true, not all of it is. The average armed robber is no diffferent as far as reaction times than the average person. Frequently, their reactions are slower because they get high before robbing someone because it takes the edge off.

Most are nowhere near as athletic as I am even at 48. Many are tweakers or junkies who are strung out. Some of the gangsters are in good shape, but these are things that can be assesed by observing their actions. Many don't want to hurt or kill you, they just want to intimidate you into compliance. Many have not made that decision before they accost you - if they had, they would've just walked up, shot you and taken your money. Also, there is no such thing as "mind and body numbing, paralyzing fear." Your comments seem to make the criminal larger than life - they are not.

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You try to draw on an armed robber who has the drop on you, and I guarantee you with almost total certainty that you WILL catch a bullet.

I can guarantee you that I will not. Having been a professional shooter for many years, I have fired more rounds in a year than most people will fire in two lifetimes, I've trained, shot and competed with some of the greatest shooters in the world, so it's safe to say that there aren't a lot of people out there who possess the skill at arms that I do (kind of like your shark/tuna analogy). That is why I said " If you haven't achieved a master class level of proficiency then don't even try it."

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Thus, your best defense is to be aware and alert . . .

Absolutely, and augment that with proper and ongiong training.

BillCA · February 10, 2007, 09:01 PM

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Most are nowhere near as athletic as I am even at 48. Many are tweakers or junkies who are strung out. Some of the gangsters are in good shape, but these are things that can be assesed by observing their actions. Many don't want to hurt or kill you, they just want to intimidate you into compliance. Many have not made that decision before they accost you - if they had, they would've just walked up, shot you and taken your money.

And even that tweaker can get into your blind spot and throw a hard punch that puts you down. If he's intent on getting your valuables, he'll hit you several more times to disorient you while grabbing for your wallet.

**JohnKSa** · February 10, 2007, 09:21 PM

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Neither is true. Having BTDT several times, I don't ever recall being scared and every time it happened, my senses seemed hyper-acute.

I think we've touched on this before. You posted this on another active thread: "I guess the 3 or 4 million rounds I have fired as a professional shooter, instructor and consultant does show a complete and utter lack of understanding of marksmanship. "

The average gun enthusiast won't fire 10,000 rounds in his lifetime. You've exceeded the lifetime number of rounds that the average gun enthusiast will shoot by a factor of three or four HUNDRED.

While I'm sure that everything you're saying is true for YOU, the idea that everything will also be true for someone who practices hundreds of times less than you do is not at all realistic.

January 22, 2007, 11:58 PM	#61
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	Observations & comments; First, it has happened to me while unarmed and it was pretty nerve wracking. But my approach was to tell the guy "Sorry, I just spent it" (change) while continuing to walk, angling away from him. When he persisted asking for cash, I told him "I ain't got enough to be worth it." and turned to face him, while still moving towards my truck He paused and apparently tried to make up his mind whether to leave or finish the job. He made the wrong decision, tried to close in around the truck. I pulled out the knife I keep in the door map pocket (a Gerber Mk-I combat knife), told him GET BACK, NOW! while bringing the knife into a low ready. He looked at the knife, then me, then decided to walk away calmly. I watched his hands the whole time, prepared to go for cover. Typically, I keep about $8 in a cheap money clip in a pocket for such occasions. Fold the $5 bill on the outside and the $1 bills add some thickness. If tossed near the BG's feet, you can retreat, move to cover/concealment when he looks/bends down or draw your weapon while he's distracted. Unfortunately, I've seen a number of cases where a BG will simply try to cold-cock the victim and take his belongings. This usually involves the victim not being aware of who's getting close to him or the closeness being "normal" for the circumstances (such as in a waiting line). Well lit areas are no guarantee of safety, even if cameras are evident. All it does is give you better visibility of what he looks like and what he may be doing with his hands. The best defense is to keep aware of who is nearby -- within rock-throwing distance as we used to call it. Inside that range they can easily run at you and make an attack before you are quite sure that's what is happening. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

January 23, 2007, 06:11 PM	#63
fattsgalore Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2007 Posts: 304	If he has the draw on me with a gun i give everything including my shoes; car; etc. None of that craps worth your life or the safety of others. He comes at me with a knife i put him down like a dog. No warning shot. I've been in situations were bums or a stranger comes up to me. I have told them in these exact words "Yo back up, just back up." or "I'm gonna leave. I don't want no trouble." I of course said this with my hand on my waist. Don't brandish the weapon. Your hand on your waist, no one will mistake it for anything else but i got a gun. It's more legal to kill someone(self defense of course) then it is to pull your piece and tell them to back up. Cop passes by your going to jail and he's going home. I knew someone that was facing three years for firing a warning shot when he was about to get jumped by a gang of drunk dudes. As of October 2006 in Florida you no longer have to escape or retreat you can now stand your ground. Last edited by fattsgalore; January 24, 2007 at 06:29 PM.

January 24, 2007, 10:38 AM	#64
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	There is one thing that it seems a lot of posters are forgetting, and that is the 21 foot (7 yard) rule. It has been proven, time and time again, that a person who is within 7 yards WILL MAKE CONTACT with you if they want--even after being shot. Thus, your safety margin is 7 yards. My reaction to an attempted mugging was this: I noticed the person as I walked through the lot, toward my truck. I make it a habit to scan the parking lot before I set out, so I noted this guy who was about 40 yards as I entered the lot. (BTW, this was in Seattle, by Pike Place Market.) As I started walking toward my truck, I noted that this guy started moving, too--and that he was moving parallel with me. First alarm flag up. I still had plenty of distance, so I did a quick second scan of the area--no one else. OK, now this guy had my undivided attention. I slowed down, got to my truck and put it to my back, waiting to see what the guy was going to do. He gave a cursory look around, and then headed straight for me. At about 15 yards out, I said in a firm voice, "That's far enough. What do you want?" He mumbled something, and continued his approach. Now, the alarm bells were ringing loud. I was turned weak-side toward him, so he did not see me quietly unholster my Colt. As he continued, I said "That's close enough, stop NOW!" with a bit of a snap to the last word. This brought him up short. He stopped, just outside the 21 foot line. He looked at me; now I could see that he was almost certainly tweaking (possibly on meth or another stimulant). He said, "Hey, buddy, can you spare a dollar?" I said, "Sorry, I'm broke." I maintained my position, Colt behind my leg. He looked at me, then glanced around the lot again. When his eyes met mine, they had assumed a hard, feral look. Oh crap, I thought...now it comes. His hand went into his pocket and came out with a folding knife, which he opened. That was all the notification I needed; he crossed the line at that instant from Ronco Tweek-O-Matic to deadly threat. I backed up one step and brought the Colt up, locked up in a Chapman stance. In my best parade ground voice, I told him, "Police Officer! Drop the weapon now, or you WILL be shot! Get on the ground, RIGHT NOW!" The second he saw the Colt, however, his whole attitude changed. He immediately assumed the "Ah, ****!!" demeanor, and I swear he burnt rubber off his shoes, he took off so fast! Did I chase him? Oh, HELL no! He took off, which was good enough for me. A quick call got three of Seattle's finest up there post haste. I gave them a description of the guy, and one of the responding officers said that it fit the general description of a guy they wanted on a variety of warrants. I wrote out a statement; and since I had drawn my sidearm, I gave a quick call to my department and talked to the on duty LT, describing my use of force. The only thing different from anyone else going through the scenario was the fact that I am a cop. Do NOT let anyone cross the 21 foot line--even if you land good COM hits, they can still slip a blade into you. If they break off and run, so much the better. If they freeze in place, then get in your car, still covering them at gunpoint and get out of there. Do NOT try to arrest or detain them. However, if they get on the ground, cover them from a good distance away and call the police. Give a good description of yourself, and stay on the line with dispatch. When the officers show up, re-holster your firearm IMMEDIATELY, and make sure that the responding officers see your hands. Do call the police ASAP, and let them know what happened. PS: By the way, it might be noteworthy to know that as I presented the weapon, I snapped the safety off, but kept my finger indexed. I was amped up at that point--and putting your finger on the trigger of a semiauto pistol with a 4 lb. trigger in that state is NOT something you want to do, unless you are going to shoot immediately. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

January 30, 2007, 05:51 PM	#65
Covert Mission Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 1999 Location: West of the Pecos Posts: 671	A couple thoughts, FWIW: 1- When all you've got is a hammer (i.e., Glock) then everything looks like a nail (i.e., something to shoot). Have other tools in your toolbox. Have plan A,B,C etc for these scenarios. Have a flashlight (I carry an E2E Surefire always) along with a folder and a cellphone when I'm armed or not. Be prepared to go for the proper tool. Also, be prepared to be a good witness, rather than intervening, if necessary. More cops have been killed off-duty in NYC than on duty in some years. No backup, no radio, no vest. Sometimes you just can't be Superman. 2- Determine the threat as best you can, but you still may be wrong. Real, or imagined? Maybe the guys actually does just want some change. At 0-dark-thirty, plan for the worst and hope for the best. Disengage, retreat (and live to fight another day), prepare to re-engage as needed. Put some distance, and hard cover between you and the potential threat. Either way, they'll have a harder time getting to you, and you have cover if they have a gun, or a knife even (and the 21' rule is really 30', imho...take it seriously). Use your command voice: "Listen, asshle, back off now. I am legally armed, and will use force to defend myself. Go away now." Start out with hurting his feelings: "No, I don't have any change. Go away." Predators like the weak and infirm (and are usually cowards), so don't be that. Let them know you're prepared to take it to the max. 3- OODA Loop. Observe, Orient, Decide, then Act. Stay ahead of the power curve, and your possible assailant, by being aware (observe), anticipating what is happening or might happen (orient), having a plan for those potential situations (decide), and then acting as required . Always be in at least condition yellow when out, and ready to go to orange/red. Most "sheeple" are wandering around oblivious in condition white. They are lunch. Be aware of your surroundings. You pull up at night to a Stop 'n Rob...look around the lot. What's the clerk doing? How many people in the store? Are there cars idling in the lot? Who's in them? Situational awareness. Pan 'n scan all the time. It's not paranoia. Watch a cat...they're always looking. They even nap with one eye cracked. someone asked Clint Smith, "Why do you always carry a gun? Are you paranoid?" He deadpanned, "Why should I be paranoid...I have a gun." Be safe. Last edited by Covert Mission; January 31, 2007 at 01:36 PM.*

January 30, 2007, 09:25 PM	#67
Haterade Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2006 Posts: 191	If I'm getting gas at 130 in the morning, I'm at least going to to a Quick-Trip. They are lit up like a football game and there are usually tons of people there (probably for that reason). I hope that situation wouldn't come up there. If it did, I dunno... guess I'll worry about it if it happens. But, I surely wouldn't use some single-pump rinky-dink gas station after midnight, unless I was in the middle of the desert or something. __________________ Sledge Hammer: You've never played target practice? Soviet Scientist: In Russia, we practice by shooting dissidents. Sledge Hammer: Here we call them liberals.

January 19, 2007, 08:12 PM	#51
revjen45 Junior member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 626	I don't keep $20s in ready drop position- too easy to lose one.

January 19, 2007, 10:21 PM	#53
chadwimc Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 155	During this past summer, I was approached while pumping gas at 0300. I was trapped between the company truck, the pumps and three poor, misunderstood yoots. My first response to the one doing the talking was ** you, ****(expletive racial slur). Two of 'em broke off whatever was about to happen. The third still wanted to persue the strong arming. Until he saw the Taurus in my hand. They are predators. Just like on National Geographic, they are looking for a weak target. Unless you're being accosted by a mental patient, attitude is a big part of the fight...

January 21, 2007, 02:33 PM	#55
whip1 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 383	There are laws here that address that. If two guys get in a fight, it's assualt. If a racial slur is used, it a hate crime. The penealty for a hate crime is much higher for assualt.

January 21, 2007, 08:58 PM	#56
revjen45 Junior member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 626	That's why whatever you say in response is in a low quiet growl, not a shout. You can always say the witnesses misunderstood you, and the perp gets the message loud and clear. Clarity of diction is way behind expression of deep down rage and lack of fear if you have time to talk before you have to shoot. One of my gun buds replied with "I'm not the guy." Perp:"What?" Gun Bud: "I'm not the guy you want to f- with," pulling back his jacket just enough to show a Commander. Perp: "I gotta go now" as he leaves burn marks on the pavement and a cloud of heel dust upon exit. Reading the laws of the state of WA indicates that I can carry my sword cane too, as long as I don't use it to threaten or intimidate innocent people. How handy for an old Fudd who can't run or duke it out.

January 21, 2007, 11:21 PM	#57
chadwimc Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 155	I'm sorry. "Good evening, young man" just invites more trouble. I'll take my chances. They've already targeted me. I don't have a thing to lose...

January 22, 2007, 03:39 PM	#59
03Shadowbob Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 176	I have had this scenario happen to me on a few occassions due to what I used to do for a living and when someone asked me for change which happened every week almost, I told them to tap dance for me and I'd give them my change if they did. I never got mugged or had anyone lay a hand on me. Not sure if it's because my size, my crazy request in response to their crazy request (crazy white boys are not ones to mess with just as Chris Rock ), or because of my confident look of I will kick your a$$ across the parking lot..but something worked. And anyone who thinks just because they have been trained in Kung-fu, Moogoo, whatever that they can eliminate all threats with their hands, is asking for a whippin'.

January 30, 2007, 06:28 PM	#66
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	I've had two hairy situations come up and here's how I dealt with each 1) I had just purchased my wife's engagement ring and had to take it to another jeweler to be sized (where I bought it contracted this out to the other). I went in and got the work done and came back out. It was daylight but a rough part of Durham, NC. As I got in my truck I locked my door (automatic thing that I always do). As I started my truck I see a guy in my side mirror, he's approaching from the rear and trying his best to avoid the mirror but failing. He gets to my window and knocks on it. If you lookup "crackhead" in the dictionary you'll know what he looked like. This guy was bugged out and real twitchy. I shook my head "no", and put the truck in reverse. He steps up against the door and tries the handle with a determined "I'm gonna get in there" kinda look on his face. At this point if I'd tried to back out of the tight parking space I was in I would've probably run over him or at least his foot. So instead I reached under my seat and retrieved my 9mm where I'd left it when I went in the CCW unfriendly store. I did not point it at him, but laid it in my lap with my hand still on it and my best "Do we really want to go there?" look on my face. He immediately put both hands in the air and backed up. I don't know what he was expecting to happen but it obviously wasn't to see me with a gun. 2) I was in a mall parking lot in the same part of Durham (Yes I've since stopped going there). I was reaching into my car across the driver's seat to put some packages in the passenger seat when I "sense" someone approaching. I slipped my head and upper body back out of the car and my left hand (I'm right handed BTW) found my 9mm under my seat. I didn't draw but left my hand where it was. As I turned and looked at the guy he kinda startled like he wasn't expecting me to see him coming. I notice that his right hand is out of view behind his hip. I also notice that he's with a woman whose car is stopped right behind mine blocking me in. He immediately started on some spiel about how he'd been robbed the day before in that very parking lot and needed some money to get back to Virginia and he said it happened "Right over there" (pointing) and really was trying to get me to turn away and look over my shoulder. All the while he's still inching and angling forward. I'm still crouched inside my open door with my left hand under the seat and I'm kinda stuck. Can't back up, can't get into the car because I'd have to turn my back and would never make it, not to mention that there's a car right behind mine even if I got in and got the door closed/locked. I yelled "STOP" as loud as I could. At which several people nearby stopped and looked at both of us. At that point he stopped and shut up for a minute. I then said, "Turn around and go back to your vehicle, slowly. I've got nothing for you that you want." I guess he realized then that my left hand was out of view for a reason. He backed up the way he came and got in his car. I guess I'll never know and will always wonder what he had behind his hip. Either way I didn't want to find out the hard way. After they pulled away I sat there and let my heart get down to a normal rhythm before I could even back out of the parking space. As to how I'd handle the hypothetical situation in the OP. I tend to avoid being out in the wee hours of the morning if at all possible. If I have to be, I'm armed and usually will have it in my hand in a pocket as I'm walking to my car. I'd tell the guy to back off all the while maintaining as much space between him and me as possible. Whether he's got a knife or a gun, he's dangerous. Knife fighting is ugly business. I'm pretty handy with a blade and with empty hands, but I'd rather take a gun to a knife fight than to go empty handed or with a blade myself. I prefer every advantage and will do everything possible to make sure I have it. Hopefully the BG get the point and go after easier prey. Most criminals are lazy, that's why they're criminals. They prefer soft targets when possible. That's not to say that I believe that is an iron clad rule. There are no absolutes in life........ BTW, sorry I wrote a book here........

January 31, 2007, 07:17 PM	#68
revjen45 Junior member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 626	Pumping gas doesn't take both hands. When I'm gassing up I have one hand in my pocket if you know what I mean (and I don't mean pocket pool). Last edited by revjen45; January 31, 2007 at 07:18 PM. Reason: afterthought

February 9, 2007, 11:48 AM	#69
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	The first time he asks for change, I would say "sorry bro" and put my hand on my pistol. At this point it doesn't matter what he does, I am going to prevail. This removes most potential problems like pistol getting hung up on clothes, etc. If he persists, then I would draw and keep the pistol at a low ready and tell him to leave now (I know someone is going to say that is brandishing, but given the setting and situation, most cops wouldn't question it - besides the only desirable outcome is that I live another day). If he walked away, I would move behind my vehicle (if I wasn't already) and keep it between he and I. When he was out of sight, I would jump in and drive away. If he continued, I would yell "stop" as loud as I could and if there were other people around, I would yell "please call 911, this man is threatening my life." If he took another step forward, I would align the sights C.O.M. and yell (again so any spectators could hear) "you are threatining me, please don't come any closer or I will be forced to defend myself." If I could do it safely, I would back up toward the store and all the way inside if necessary. At some point, he is either going to stop or get shot. Either way, I live. I can deal with whatever consequences if any, later on. If he pulls a weapon, draw and kill him. Contrary to what some have posted, you can draw and hit someone who has the drop on you before they can fire (I don't want to rekindle what was a rather lengthy debate several months ago), if you have that level of competency. If not, then don't, but have a realistic idea of your skill level. That should dictate what the response will be. Other observations: If you haven't thought about this type of situation even down to the details like what you should say to the assailant or the police in the aftermath, you should. Less than lethal response isn't necessary, nor can it guarantee the desired outcome. Pepper spray isn't dependable, neither are Tasers (Rodnkey King is a perfect example). Remember, there are a lot of steps before you end up in jail. The state has to decide if there is ample evidence that you committed a crime, they have to decide if there is enough evidence to convict, they have to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that your life was not in danger before you are convicted. Yes, it could be costly, yes it will adversely impact you life, but life is the key word in that sentence since the alternative is to die. I am willing to take that chance, whether you are or not is up to you. Hollering racial slurs, inflammatory, or degrading remarks will only serve to harm you in the big picture. If you decide to shoot someone, you should always strive to be righteous. If you have not decided to shoot someone, you should not have your hand on your pistol or perhaps not even carry one. Your mind is your most powerful weapon. Develop situational awareness. In this scenario, we are past the point where S.A. leads to avoidance. Know your skill level, if you can't hit a target at 10 yards from your carry holster in under 1.5 seconds, either get more training or try a different rig. Either way, know what you are capable of. Not every situation will unfold as slowly as this scenario would. The 21 ft rule is garbage. First, it is impractical in real life. You can't draw or even assess everyone who crosses that line. Second, the main reason the 21 ft rule was created was to highlight what can happen when someone is within that distance (Tuellar). With proper training that distance is halved, Tuellar's point was that someone can close that distance in 1.5 seconds, so you need to be able to hit your target in that amount of time. Always maintain control of the situation. That way you effect the outcome. Compliance does not automatically guarantee survival. Many victims have been shot or otherwise harmed after complying with their assailant. If you are in control, you dictate the pace and course. Again, play these things out in your head. It can pay off in spades when/if the situation arises in real life. My more than .02's worth.