What are the best non-JHP .38/.357 bullets for self defense?

[mikld]

Originally Posted by Mobuck

"In addition, a wound that includes both entry and exit hole promotes an increased amount of blood loss. IMHO, any shot that does not result in complete penetration is a failure."
This theory has merit for hunting BUT IMHO is questionable in a SD scenario where there may be innocents beyond the target or the possibility of ricochet in an unknown direction.
The reason I carried swaged HP in a 357 was to limit overall penetration and reduce the chances of bouncing a bullet into something I hadn't intended to hit.
FWIW
I've killed about as many animals w/o a pass thru as I have with full penetration.

Regarding through and through shots and innocent "victims/bystanders"; has anyone calculated the velocity of a bullet(s) that have penetrated, completely, a human body? And the effects on another body at perhaps 10 feet away, or 25 feet?

Later; Any verifiable reports of such a happening? Or is all the talk just speculation?

[Metal god]

I’m sure there is all know kinds of that data out there . Athought not handgun related , im sure the Las Vegas shooting has a lot of that data . When speaking hand gun projectiles , there’s likely a good amout of that data using the the 1911 and 45acp ball ammo do to how much that combo has been used in war .

My point is im sure there is tons of data , it’s finding it that would be the hard part .

[mikld]

FWIW, My math sucks but the formula for finding RPM of a bullet is MVx729/twist rate in inches (muzzle velocity times 720 divided by twist rate). So, outta my 38 special a bullet going 800 fps is spinning about 32,000 RPM, which I think is fast enough for an Inceptor/ARX bullet to work...

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by mikld

FWIW, My math sucks but the formula for finding RPM of a bullet is MVx729/twist rate in inches (muzzle velocity times 720 divided by twist rate). So, outta my 38 special a bullet going 800 fps is spinning about 32,000 RPM, which I think is fast enough for an Inceptor/ARX bullet to work...

It's not the RPM's that does it, it's the low weight and high speed that contribute to its effectiveness. The first few inches the flutes in the nose do their thing due to that rotation, but then the drag causes the light bullet to tumble, so there's really a double effect with the Polycase ARX design.

BTW, I've seen that the Polycase bullets in .380 penetrate deeper than a lot of .380 JHP's do. Other than the Hornady XTP bullet that is.

[Eddietruett]

Originally Posted by USSR

Don't discount the expansion capability of lead hollowpoints at snubnose velocities. The bullet in the middle and the bullet on the right were both fired out of my snubnose revolver. Also, make sure you use a heavy for caliber bullet to ensure good penetration.

Don

What is the bullet in center with square sided hp? Looks cool

[JERRYS.]

since you ask for non-+P I guess you need the least recoil. and for that my wife uses a Federal 110gr. Hydro-shok H.P. reduced recoil load in her J frame.

[USSR]

What is the bullet in center with square sided hp? Looks cool

That's the MP 359640 using the penta point pin. MP Molds typically use the Cramer method of casting hollowpoints. Usually there are several different types of pins that come with the mold, and you can change them out as you wish. Yes, the penta point hollowpoints are cool.

Don

[Mobuck]

"Regarding through and through shots and innocent "victims/bystanders"; has anyone calculated the velocity of a bullet(s) that have penetrated, completely, a human body? And the effects on another body at perhaps 10 feet away, or 25 feet?"
Not from a handgun bullet but absolutely assure everyone a rifle bullet is quite deadly on a deer @ 25' after a pass thru. I'm not going to volunteer to be the "test dummy".

[Rifletom]

Yeah, some interesting answers here. I hope to never have to find out, ever. But, in .38spl, I'd think a 158gr swc, probably a +P load. I really don't know in .357 mag. Maybe the 125gr HP's? Don't know. A few of the 158 swc's from a .38 would be nasty tho. Just my opinion. Never do I want to find out tho.

[Marco Califo]

I once worked as an armed guard, often in or near "young people". Over penetration is a real concern. Innocent bystanders, or your relatives in your house, even in a different room. I carried 38 hollow-points (in a 357), so as to combat over penetration.
I once read a case study of a California murder where the perp was convicted of murder of a person in a different room who was shot through a wall, intentionally, staged as an accident. It was not a magnum. Regular LRN 38, not even +P.
My point is over penetration is a very real issue. Tests of 10mm and 357 hollowpoints went through of 24 inches of ballistic gelatin, and kept going. 9mm 115 FMJ clean through a politicians skull in AZ (and she lived). In my house, I have a Glock G26 in reach full of 147 grn hollow points. I live alone. If I did not live alone, the G26 would be full of 115 grn hollow points, which would also be secured, rather than just hidden. I have heard that plain old double ended 146 wad cutters, being soft lead, work reasonably well for defensive use.

[Jim Watson]

Elmer Keith used a 173 gr SWC, Lyman 358429. It killed game pretty well, when he was limited to the smallbore, but I don't think he ever shot a man.
There was a hollowpoint version but I gather he did not use it much.

There are the LBT WFN bullets and full wadcutters that chop an even bigger hole.

I once read a case for the old Super Police 200 gr bullet on the grounds that it was marginally stable from a S&W 18.75" twist and would "tumble" on impact.

Lightweight gimmick bullets? No thanks, not until they have a record on animals and felons.

[USSR]

Lightweight gimmick bullets? No thanks, not until they have a record on animals and felons.

I'm with you Jim. Years ago, I would take my S&W 686 with me deer hunting. I was using the Winchester 145gr SilverTip .357 Magnum load that everybody raves about. I found that it kinda worked okay with the classic thru the rib cage shot, but then one year I was presented with this situation. I was hunting in a tree stand when I heard a nearby hunter's shot. A doe came limping over to me and lay down pretty much right under my tree. So, I figured I'd do the hunter a favor and put his deer down for him with my .357 Magnum. I aimed at it's back in such an angle that the shot would carry into the chest cavity. At the shot, the deer got up and ran off. I was astounded. This was early morning, and in the afternoon I returned to the same general area, only this time hunting on the ground with my shotgun. A doe came limping along towards me and I dispatched it with my 12 guage. When I got it home and removed the hide, I found a perfectly mushroomed .357 bullet imbedded in the heavy layer of fat on the back of this large doe. The bullet never hit bone and never even came close to entering the chest cavity. I quit using the .357 Magnum for deer and moved on to the .45 Colt, of which lack of penetration is not a problem. The point being, penetration is important. There is a reason why the FBI specifies that a round must meet a specific amount of penetration (a result of the disastrous FBI Miami shootout), and not just rely on expansion. So, all my cast bullets are heavy for caliber hollowpoints using an alloy that is suited for the intended velocity, and also takes into consideration the size of the hollowpoint. I do not rely on bimetallic (jacketed) bullets that may expand but fail to give me the penetration that is needed. Just MHO.

Don

[mikld]

Originally Posted by Mobuck

"Regarding through and through shots and innocent "victims/bystanders"; has anyone calculated the velocity of a bullet(s) that have penetrated, completely, a human body? And the effects on another body at perhaps 10 feet away, or 25 feet?"
Not from a handgun bullet but absolutely assure everyone a rifle bullet is quite deadly on a deer @ 25' after a pass thru. I'm not going to volunteer to be the "test dummy".

Yep, but I thought the thread was dealing with handgun SD bullets...

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

Over penetration is a real concern. Innocent bystanders, or your relatives in your house, even in a different room. I carried 38 hollow-points (in a 357), so as to combat over penetration.
I once read a case study of a California murder where the perp was convicted of murder of a person in a different room who was shot through a wall, intentionally, staged as an accident. It was not a magnum. Regular LRN 38, not even +P.

I'm not sure what your point is. Any modern bullet can penetrate 2 layers of drywall and still be lethal. Any bullet that meets any minimal criteria of penetration is also capable of over penetration if the shot isn't a solid hit. The question is whether any innocent bystander has ever been hit and injured after a shot passes clean through a bad guy.

Additionally it's just as likely another bad guy is standing right behind bad guy number 1 and you get 2 birds with 1 stone.

[Metal god]

The question is whether any innocent bystander has ever been hit and injured after a shot passes clean through a bad guy.

Short answer is YES . Do I have a link for you proving it , No . Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence . To even think a bullet has "NEVER" past through a bad guy and hit a innocent person is unreasonable . IMO who it passes through and who it hits after is irrelevant . The question/debate is simply can a bullet pass through one human target and have enough energy to enter another human . Does anyone here think that's impossible ?


16" gell block , I'm 6'3" 275lbs and my torso is maybe 16" deep . What if it's going through a 140lb tweeker dude with a 10" deep body .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1j090EYHuo

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by Metal god

Does anyone here think that's impossible ?

Of course it's possible, but how realistic of a scenario is it? Any bullet capable of taking down a crazed 300 lb guy is also capable of over penetration. I can easily find plenty of videos/stories where an under powered bullet fails to perform, and you can't find one instance where an innocent is hit after the bullet pass through a bad guy. It would seem to be a logical conclusion that under performance is a more realistic problem vs. over penetration.

[JERRYS.]

you have a far far greater chance of hitting an innocent bystander with one of your missed rounds than with one that over penetrated an attacker.

edit: nypd has had shoot throughs when they were forced to carry fmj in their 9mms.

[Metal god]

Of course it's possible, but how realistic of a scenario is it

I don't know about you guys but my karma makes it a certainty that if I use a FMJ that is likely to over penetrate . It will , and some how make a U-turn and come back and hit me right between the eyes . But that's "my" karma . If I'm so lucky and it misses me it will fly by and hit Jesus Christ him self .

nypd has had shoot throughs when they were forced to carry fmj in their 9mms

That would be your best way to find the info you are looking for . Police shootings up until they were allowed to use HP will likely have the most threw-n-threw shots that hit bystanders . How ever that would likely be hard to prove only because there tends to be multiple shots fired . Making it very hard to know if a bullet went through a person before hitting another . Unless only one shot is fired It would be pretty hard to know for sure each bullets trajectory in a shoot out . You can conclude each shots trajectory but it would be harder to know what path each individual bullet took . Which is what is making it hard to find that data .

[Jim Watson]

nypd has had shoot throughs when they were forced to carry fmj in their 9mms.

Yes, but...
How many have been hit by misses? Their percentage of hits is very low.

[Metal god]

We were already off topic a little bit . If we start talking misses well then does it really matter what bullet you’re using . If we are taking misses into account then we should really consider not shooting at all .

It is an it’s interesting thought experiment. Do you have the right to defend your self with a gun if there’s a likely hood bystanders will be injured? Should you have to die because one of your shots may miss the bad guy and hit someone behind him ?? I guess that’s something cops have to deal with every day .

[Deja vu]

In 357Magnum id avoid any bullet less than 110 grain unless it's just for plinking. I would certainly avoid relaoding ammo for self defence. I'm not a fan of plastic bullets or even compressed mettle bullets. Yeah I have tried a few but I admit I am not an expert of specialty ammo.