Forgive me,another "pistolgrip" question

DARTH 44 · October 3, 2002, 12:53 PM

I`ve just performed a search on the forum,but unfortunately
none of the posts was specific about this shotgun-ammo
combination.
Well,some time ago I saw an interesting pistolgrip shotgun.
It was a Remington 870 HD with barrel shortened to 12,5'',
and with a Pachmayr Presentation Grip fitted.
I was wondering if it would be very hard to control this Remy
when firing full-power 00 and 000 Buck,and/or Rottweil
Brenneke slugs.
Have you TFL shotgunners shot such a "shorty'' before?
If so, could you please share your experiences?

TIA

Romulus · October 3, 2002, 02:02 PM

Barrel shortened to twelve point five inches? Are you sure it wan't on a Mossberg platform, that's the only sub-18" I've ever seen. I've never fired one, but I'd suspect it isn't pleasant, or controllable for that matter...

Hemicuda · October 3, 2002, 02:05 PM

That'd be a NFA shotgun, requiring the $200.00 tax-stamp and registration...

ronin308 · October 3, 2002, 02:19 PM

I think it classifies as an AOW, so its a $5 stamp and registration.

DARTH 44 · October 3, 2002, 05:55 PM

Romulus
Yes,definitely an 870.
There was a pic in October `96 issue of
''International Waffen Magazin".The shotgun
I described was one of offerings from Mayer AG,
Basel , Switzerland.
The price was 850 Swiss Franks, FWIW

Dave McC · October 4, 2002, 04:22 AM

I'm used to recoil, have good form, and I blanch at the idea of shooting off Rottweils in a short PG'd 870.

I've shot Winchester and Federal 1 oz slugs from an 870 folder one handed. Not recommended.

Depending on you,shooting this thing with either full power buck or slugs would fall in between very hard to control to ripping you a new one.

HTH....

DARTH 44 · October 4, 2002, 12:42 PM

Dave McC,
I have rather strong hands and I`m not too recoil shy,I think.
That said,what would be the maximum range I could hit
a man size target(torso),from the "shorty" held in both hands?

I know it`s difficult to be precise here,but I`m curious
of your opinion.

Regards

Al Thompson · October 4, 2002, 01:11 PM

Darth, I've never fired a super shorty like the one you describe, but have played with two PG only equipped riot guns. The 12 was a 870 with the Remington folding stoock. Shooting PG only and holding it in front of my face, it's not in-accurate. Second shot was very slow. Note that the full size SG probably weighed 8 lbs (3.5 kilos) and recoil was heavy but tolerable. Lose that weight and recoil has to increase by a large amount.

I had a Win 1200 in 20 ga., that was interesting to shoot. Someone had cut down a PG to fit the smaller reciever and accuracy with a slug was "minute of felon" at 25 yards, no problem.

IMHO, if you want the shorty, 20 ga would be a better choice.

It's not the mechanical accuracy, it's the practical accuracy. When the recoil gets too heavy, that's a huge obstacle to overcome.

fal308 · October 4, 2002, 09:03 PM

As stated above, these have excessive amounts of perceived recoil. One way folks are attempting to tame the recoil is with a vertical foregrip. Here in the USA there are several small manufacturers that produce these SBSs(Short Barrelled Shotgun). One of the prime examples is the Serbu Super Shorty, seen at http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm Other companies build shortys from Ithacas, 870s, double barrels and even semi-autos.
They are a rather specialized firearm that does have its uses though. The cool factor is usually quite a bit higher than the usefullness factor though.
Here in the USA these are considered a Title III firearm (NFA rules apply) and if it was originally a regular-stocked shotgun then it becomes a SBS and a $200 tax stamp is needed BEFORE any conversion is done. If it starts life as a receiver only and is built from that then it is considered an AOW (Any Other Weapon) and the $5 tax stamp is needed.
It all depends upon what the shorty is built up from as to the classification it receives.

Dave McC · October 6, 2002, 08:09 AM

Darth, I could put a slug pretty COM at 25 on a tombztone, but it took practice and wasn't fast for repeaters.

Using the old Remington folder, we got decent hits at 15-25 yards if we raised the weapon to eye level, but there's no significant advantage over a conventional stock.

IMO, anyone who devotes enough time and effort to
reach an acceptable level of proficiency with a PG only could take the same time and effort and become truly deadly with a conventional weapon.

As for max effective range, my SWAG would be from one side of the phone booth to the other on the short end, cross the lawn on the long.

As for PG onlys in general, I know some pretty salty characters. Narcs,Feds, COs, heavy hobby shooters, folks who have "Lived by the Gun". All of these folks have "Serious" shotguns, few if any have PG only ones.

HTH....

DARTH 44 · October 6, 2002, 12:43 PM

Thanks for the replies

The PG-only shotguns are more"cool"than useful indeed,
but they definitely have some charm

Btw,there is an interesting article in 2002 October issue of
GUNWORLD.The article is "What would the gunfighters carry
today?" by Jerry Ahern.Jerry speculates many of famous
gunfighters would carry PG shotguns,if they were living nowadays

"Those were the days my friend."
No beaurocratic smartasses to decide which gun is good(legal)
or bad(illegal) :barf:

Good shooting

October 3, 2002, 12:53 PM	#1
DARTH 44 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 138	Forgive me,another "pistolgrip" question I`ve just performed a search on the forum,but unfortunately none of the posts was specific about this shotgun-ammo combination. Well,some time ago I saw an interesting pistolgrip shotgun. It was a Remington 870 HD with barrel shortened to 12,5'', and with a Pachmayr Presentation Grip fitted. I was wondering if it would be very hard to control this Remy when firing full-power 00 and 000 Buck,and/or Rottweil Brenneke slugs. Have you TFL shotgunners shot such a "shorty'' before? If so, could you please share your experiences? TIA __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed,unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" JAMES MADISON - The Federalist Papers

October 3, 2002, 02:02 PM	#2
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	Barrel shortened to twelve point five inches? Are you sure it wan't on a Mossberg platform, that's the only sub-18" I've ever seen. I've never fired one, but I'd suspect it isn't pleasant, or controllable for that matter... __________________ I knew Thomas Jefferson, he was a friend of mine...Governor Clinton, you're no Thomas Jefferson Ti faccio vedere come muore un italiano

October 3, 2002, 02:05 PM	#3
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	That'd be a NFA shotgun, requiring the $200.00 tax-stamp and registration... __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

October 3, 2002, 02:19 PM	#4
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	I think it classifies as an AOW, so its a $5 stamp and registration. __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

October 3, 2002, 05:55 PM	#5
DARTH 44 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 138	Romulus Yes,definitely an 870. There was a pic in October `96 issue of ''International Waffen Magazin".The shotgun I described was one of offerings from Mayer AG, Basel , Switzerland. The price was 850 Swiss Franks, FWIW __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed,unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" JAMES MADISON - The Federalist Papers

October 4, 2002, 04:22 AM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I'm used to recoil, have good form, and I blanch at the idea of shooting off Rottweils in a short PG'd 870. I've shot Winchester and Federal 1 oz slugs from an 870 folder one handed. Not recommended. Depending on you,shooting this thing with either full power buck or slugs would fall in between very hard to control to ripping you a new one. HTH....

October 4, 2002, 12:42 PM	#7
DARTH 44 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 138	Dave McC, I have rather strong hands and I`m not too recoil shy,I think. That said,what would be the maximum range I could hit a man size target(torso),from the "shorty" held in both hands? I know it`s difficult to be precise here,but I`m curious of your opinion. Regards __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed,unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" JAMES MADISON - The Federalist Papers

October 4, 2002, 01:11 PM	#8
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Darth, I've never fired a super shorty like the one you describe, but have played with two PG only equipped riot guns. The 12 was a 870 with the Remington folding stoock. Shooting PG only and holding it in front of my face, it's not in-accurate. Second shot was very slow. Note that the full size SG probably weighed 8 lbs (3.5 kilos) and recoil was heavy but tolerable. Lose that weight and recoil has to increase by a large amount. I had a Win 1200 in 20 ga., that was interesting to shoot. Someone had cut down a PG to fit the smaller reciever and accuracy with a slug was "minute of felon" at 25 yards, no problem. IMHO, if you want the shorty, 20 ga would be a better choice. It's not the mechanical accuracy, it's the practical accuracy. When the recoil gets too heavy, that's a huge obstacle to overcome. __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

October 4, 2002, 09:03 PM	#9
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	As stated above, these have excessive amounts of perceived recoil. One way folks are attempting to tame the recoil is with a vertical foregrip. Here in the USA there are several small manufacturers that produce these SBSs(Short Barrelled Shotgun). One of the prime examples is the Serbu Super Shorty, seen at http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm Other companies build shortys from Ithacas, 870s, double barrels and even semi-autos. They are a rather specialized firearm that does have its uses though. The cool factor is usually quite a bit higher than the usefullness factor though. Here in the USA these are considered a Title III firearm (NFA rules apply) and if it was originally a regular-stocked shotgun then it becomes a SBS and a $200 tax stamp is needed BEFORE any conversion is done. If it starts life as a receiver only and is built from that then it is considered an AOW (Any Other Weapon) and the $5 tax stamp is needed. It all depends upon what the shorty is built up from as to the classification it receives.

October 6, 2002, 08:09 AM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Darth, I could put a slug pretty COM at 25 on a tombztone, but it took practice and wasn't fast for repeaters. Using the old Remington folder, we got decent hits at 15-25 yards if we raised the weapon to eye level, but there's no significant advantage over a conventional stock. IMO, anyone who devotes enough time and effort to reach an acceptable level of proficiency with a PG only could take the same time and effort and become truly deadly with a conventional weapon. As for max effective range, my SWAG would be from one side of the phone booth to the other on the short end, cross the lawn on the long. As for PG onlys in general, I know some pretty salty characters. Narcs,Feds, COs, heavy hobby shooters, folks who have "Lived by the Gun". All of these folks have "Serious" shotguns, few if any have PG only ones. HTH....

October 6, 2002, 12:43 PM	#11
DARTH 44 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 138	Thanks for the replies The PG-only shotguns are more"cool"than useful indeed, but they definitely have some charm Btw,there is an interesting article in 2002 October issue of GUNWORLD.The article is "What would the gunfighters carry today?" by Jerry Ahern.Jerry speculates many of famous gunfighters would carry PG shotguns,if they were living nowadays "Those were the days my friend." No beaurocratic smartasses to decide which gun is good(legal) or bad(illegal) :barf: Good shooting __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed,unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" JAMES MADISON - The Federalist Papers