Revolver seating depth

Bones507 · May 10, 2009, 11:45 AM

Greetings guys
I shoot 45 acp rounds thru my Blkhwk which has the cylinder for them but the problem is they wont chamber at the length of 1.270 which is the max length listed. I have to seat the bullet down to about 1.205 to get them to chamber properly. Now i have tried all the suggested methods of adjusting the crimp and cleaning the cylinder and its still a problem. What i would like to know is if im in a dangerous area as far as pressure buildup is concerned. The manuals all list the max length but not the minimum length. I also have the same problem with the 9mm cylinder in my other Blkhwk. I dont load max charges as i dont want to push things till i know for sure. Its the same story for lead or Jacketed rounds.
Anyone know anything about this ?
Thanks

GP100man · May 10, 2009, 04:38 PM

could be a good thing , better than long ones where the boolit has to jump a gap .
if no pressure signs & cases eject ok , your ok
if in doudt start over at the beginning loads .
& i would take a little comfort in the strength of the BlackHawk also.

GP100man

wncchester · May 10, 2009, 05:09 PM

"I shoot 45 acp rounds thru my Blkhwk which has the cylinder for them but the problem is they wont chamber at the length of 1.270 which is the max length listed. I have to seat the bullet down to about 1.205 to get them to chamber properly."

Seat where they work and shoot. Note that 1.270" is the max, not the minumum. And even that is likely to only apply to a 1911 chamber. And even then it's a guide, not a law.

Jim Watson · May 10, 2009, 05:11 PM

What bullet? The maximum OAL only applies to hardball type roundnose. Other types, you seat them where you have to seat them to make the gun work, hopefully after you have gone through all that boring fine print in the manuals about "starting loads" and "working up."

Bones507 · May 11, 2009, 02:43 AM

I should have been more specific in saying it was 230gr hardball and lead rounds i was using, but Mr Watson keep the sarcasm out of it,its not necessary.
Gp100 and wncchester, thanks.

SL1 · May 11, 2009, 07:15 AM

I might not be following this properly, but is sounds like the cartridges don't chamber if the bullet is seated out too far, but do when the bullet is seated more deeply.

Since this is a REVOLVER cylinder, there should not be any restriction on the BULLET at the end of the chambers, because the rifling doesn't start until you are getting into the barrel.

SO, I am getting the impression that the cylinder throats are smaller in DIAMETER than the BULLETS. Since they are LEAD bullets, then that might not be too unusual, but for jacketed bullets, it would be a bit strange.

Do you have the same trouble with jacketed bullets? Can you easily push one of your lead bullets through the cylinder throats when they are not loaded into cases?

SL1

mega twin · May 11, 2009, 07:47 AM

I would have to go along with SL1 on this.
45acp headspaces on the case mouth,not oal.

GP100man · May 11, 2009, 08:01 AM

something gotta hold the boolit straight a little bit until it gets to the barrel!!
that`s the throats job.

GP100man

SL1 · May 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

Revolver cylinder throats are intended to be maybe 0.001" larger than bullet diameter so that the bullet is started straight, and the cartridge can be chambered without a mallet. Some folks like to make lead bullets fit really snuggly in the throats, so that the bullet is started as straight as possible. They may have to shove a little with finger pressure to get those cartridges chambered. But, that is not easy unless ALL of the throats are the same diameter. Often they don't come from the factory that way.

Semi-auto pistols SOMETIMES are set-up so that lead semi-wadcutters (or even round noses) can be seated with the lead touching the rifling hard enough to serve the headspacing function. That sometimes improves accuracy IN PISTOLS.

So, MAYBE the idea in those Ruger REVOLVER cylinders is to have the end of the chamber throats serve as a stop on the bullets. That sounds like it would shave lead and lead to INACCURACY unless the ends of the chambers had square surfaces that can headspace the case mouth but clear the bullet, and then a quick taper to SLIGHTLY less than bullet diameter so that one could headspace with the bullet if one wanted to do that. But, unless the grooves in the barrel match the chamber throats (that is UNDERSIZED), I would expect such a set-up to DECREASE accuracy instead of improve it.

SO, I am still wondering what is causing the OP's chambering problem, because it does not sound to me like something a factory chamber should be doing unless the bullets are oversize. If it is the bullets, then I suggest sizing them down to throat diameter.

SL1

Bones507 · May 11, 2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Do you have the same trouble with jacketed bullets?

Yes, they wont chamber all the way either unless i seat them at 1.205 also.
All im wondering is if im operating at safe pressures or if theres a chance of a problem.

csmsss · May 11, 2009, 12:31 PM

Do you have any moon clips? Those might be a good way of getting around your problem. Also, though I'm not advising you to go overboard with your loads, remember that the .45 ACP loading tables were built around 1911 model pistols with an unsupported case head. This isn't an issue for a strong revolver like your Blackhawk which should be handle MUCH stiffer loads than are published for .45 ACP.

Scorch · May 11, 2009, 01:58 PM

See if this makes sense:

* When you seat lead bullets too far out, you can create a ridge of lead in front of the case mouth, and the rounds are trying to headspace on that ridge of lead. Seat the bullets to where the cartridges will chamber and function reliably. The whole issue is to get the cartridges to function, right?

* With jacketed bullets, you may not be removing the case mouth bell enough to let the cartridge fully chamber.

Quote:

Do you have any moon clips?

csmsss- this is a Ruger Blackhawk, a single-action revolver. It has no clearance between the cylinder and recoil shield for moon clips, the cylinder fully encloses the cartridge, and besides there is no way to load cartridges on moon clips into the cylinder through the loading gate. How would you propose to use half-moon clips?

csmsss · May 11, 2009, 06:21 PM

Quote:

csmsss- this is a Ruger Blackhawk, a single-action revolver. It has no clearance between the cylinder and recoil shield for moon clips, the cylinder fully encloses the cartridge, and besides there is no way to load cartridges on moon clips into the cylinder through the loading gate. How would you propose to use half-moon clips?

Hahaha. Sorry - that was some outstanding brain lock going on for me. You're absolutely right, of course.

SL1 · May 11, 2009, 06:59 PM

Bones507,

You didn't tell us if yo ucan insert bullets (lead and jacketed) into your cylinder throats. YOu can try from the front. IF they go in from the front, then yo have some sort of problem in the cylinder at the point where the case headspaces or just a little farther toward the barrel. That MIGHT make a pressure problem, anthough I understand that a Blackhawk can take stiffer loads than a 45 pistol.

SL1

May 10, 2009, 11:45 AM	#1
Bones507 Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2007 Posts: 132	Revolver seating depth Greetings guys I shoot 45 acp rounds thru my Blkhwk which has the cylinder for them but the problem is they wont chamber at the length of 1.270 which is the max length listed. I have to seat the bullet down to about 1.205 to get them to chamber properly. Now i have tried all the suggested methods of adjusting the crimp and cleaning the cylinder and its still a problem. What i would like to know is if im in a dangerous area as far as pressure buildup is concerned. The manuals all list the max length but not the minimum length. I also have the same problem with the 9mm cylinder in my other Blkhwk. I dont load max charges as i dont want to push things till i know for sure. Its the same story for lead or Jacketed rounds. Anyone know anything about this ? Thanks

May 10, 2009, 04:38 PM	#2
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	short throats could be a good thing , better than long ones where the boolit has to jump a gap . if no pressure signs & cases eject ok , your ok if in doudt start over at the beginning loads . & i would take a little comfort in the strength of the BlackHawk also. GP100man Last edited by GP100man; May 10, 2009 at 04:41 PM. Reason: add on

May 11, 2009, 08:01 AM	#8
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	cyl something gotta hold the boolit straight a little bit until it gets to the barrel!! that`s the throats job. GP100man

May 10, 2009, 05:09 PM	#3
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"I shoot 45 acp rounds thru my Blkhwk which has the cylinder for them but the problem is they wont chamber at the length of 1.270 which is the max length listed. I have to seat the bullet down to about 1.205 to get them to chamber properly." Seat where they work and shoot. Note that 1.270" is the max, not the minumum. And even that is likely to only apply to a 1911 chamber. And even then it's a guide, not a law.

May 10, 2009, 05:11 PM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	What bullet? The maximum OAL only applies to hardball type roundnose. Other types, you seat them where you have to seat them to make the gun work, hopefully after you have gone through all that boring fine print in the manuals about "starting loads" and "working up."

May 11, 2009, 02:43 AM	#5
Bones507 Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2007 Posts: 132	I should have been more specific in saying it was 230gr hardball and lead rounds i was using, but Mr Watson keep the sarcasm out of it,its not necessary. Gp100 and wncchester, thanks.

May 11, 2009, 07:15 AM	#6
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I might not be following this properly, but is sounds like the cartridges don't chamber if the bullet is seated out too far, but do when the bullet is seated more deeply. Since this is a REVOLVER cylinder, there should not be any restriction on the BULLET at the end of the chambers, because the rifling doesn't start until you are getting into the barrel. SO, I am getting the impression that the cylinder throats are smaller in DIAMETER than the BULLETS. Since they are LEAD bullets, then that might not be too unusual, but for jacketed bullets, it would be a bit strange. Do you have the same trouble with jacketed bullets? Can you easily push one of your lead bullets through the cylinder throats when they are not loaded into cases? SL1

May 11, 2009, 07:47 AM	#7
mega twin Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2006 Posts: 434	I would have to go along with SL1 on this. 45acp headspaces on the case mouth,not oal.

May 11, 2009, 11:08 AM	#9
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Revolver cylinder throats are intended to be maybe 0.001" larger than bullet diameter so that the bullet is started straight, and the cartridge can be chambered without a mallet. Some folks like to make lead bullets fit really snuggly in the throats, so that the bullet is started as straight as possible. They may have to shove a little with finger pressure to get those cartridges chambered. But, that is not easy unless ALL of the throats are the same diameter. Often they don't come from the factory that way. Semi-auto pistols SOMETIMES are set-up so that lead semi-wadcutters (or even round noses) can be seated with the lead touching the rifling hard enough to serve the headspacing function. That sometimes improves accuracy IN PISTOLS. So, MAYBE the idea in those Ruger REVOLVER cylinders is to have the end of the chamber throats serve as a stop on the bullets. That sounds like it would shave lead and lead to INACCURACY unless the ends of the chambers had square surfaces that can headspace the case mouth but clear the bullet, and then a quick taper to SLIGHTLY less than bullet diameter so that one could headspace with the bullet if one wanted to do that. But, unless the grooves in the barrel match the chamber throats (that is UNDERSIZED), I would expect such a set-up to DECREASE accuracy instead of improve it. SO, I am still wondering what is causing the OP's chambering problem, because it does not sound to me like something a factory chamber should be doing unless the bullets are oversize. If it is the bullets, then I suggest sizing them down to throat diameter. SL1

May 11, 2009, 12:31 PM	#11
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	Do you have any moon clips? Those might be a good way of getting around your problem. Also, though I'm not advising you to go overboard with your loads, remember that the .45 ACP loading tables were built around 1911 model pistols with an unsupported case head. This isn't an issue for a strong revolver like your Blackhawk which should be handle MUCH stiffer loads than are published for .45 ACP.

May 11, 2009, 06:59 PM	#14
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Bones507, You didn't tell us if yo ucan insert bullets (lead and jacketed) into your cylinder throats. YOu can try from the front. IF they go in from the front, then yo have some sort of problem in the cylinder at the point where the case headspaces or just a little farther toward the barrel. That MIGHT make a pressure problem, anthough I understand that a Blackhawk can take stiffer loads than a 45 pistol. SL1