Need opinions on my reloading process for .223 REM

[fella5]

I want to start reloading more accurate .223 REM loads for my AR instead of just loading away on my progressive for plinking and shooting at targets. So now I want to see if I can get tighter groups and would like to get your opinion if my steps are okay or if i'm missing something or doing something wrong I;m looking to get a bolt action rifle in .308 maybe and I would follow the same procedures.

Should I load one by one or put 5 in the mag? I should shoot 5 round minimum coeerect?

Bullets: 55gr SP W/C Hornady, 69gr Sierra MatchKing
Primer: Remington 7 1/2 small rifle
New cases (Winchester, Lupua, Hornady):

1. Lube the case
2. FL size the case and neck (make sure the shoulder is at least .002 from a fired case?)
3. Primer pocket uniform (even with Lupua?)
4. Flash hole debur (Even with Lapua?)
5. Expand the neck with mandrel (put Imperial sizing wax on the mandrel)
6. Trim the neck just enough to get rid of the high spots (+/- .001? or .0005?)
7. Lube the case
8. FL resize the case and neck since I only have a FL die with neck bushing (should I get a neck sizer die for this step?)
9. Trim the case (How much can this be off by?)
10. Chamfer and debur the case mouth (Any good pics of how much is good, not enough or too much?)
11. Remove the lube (tumble or wipe off?)
12. Sort cases by weight (cases grouped together by .5 grains?)
13. Make sure the primer pocket is clear if cases were tumbled
14. Seat the primmer
15. Weight the powder and charge the case
16. Seat the bullet
17. Check OAL or length from the Ogive? (How much can this be off by?)
18. Measure the neck to see if you have enough neck tension (.003 for an AR)
19. Check for bullet or neck run-out (How much is okay?)
20. Shoot

Once the cases have been fired, I can just tumble, deprime and follow the steps for a new case except I wouldn't have to expand and turn the neck or debur the flash hole again correct?

Should I just make 20 rounds with a certain powder wieght and then work the load up .5 grains. I will stay below the max load, but should I start .5 grains higher than the suggested starting point.

Thanks,

Scott

[FM12]

1 thing I try to do is not load bullets wtih cannelures. Sometimes the bullet interior can be "squished (Swaged)" to one side, causing the bullet to not spin on its true axis.

Maybe just MY phobia, however, and as always, your mileage may vary (YMMV).

[frogsaw]

Another thing to keep in mind that the accuracy of .223 tends to fall apart past 300m, so this round by design has its limitations beyond your control.

[Clark]

In 12 years, the best group I have ever got with an AR is 1.05" 5 shots at 100 meters.

I have another very lite AR that has shot 1.1" 5 shots at 100 meters.

I have another fat barreled AR that has shot 1.1" 5 shots at 100 yards.

Yet I have a single shot .223 that has shot .46" 5 shots at 100yards.

I have even soldered a 22 rimfire barrel onto a 1903 Turk Mauser and welded up the extractor. I uses a .250" neck custom 223 reamer.
That rifle has shot a .95" 5 shot group at 100 yards.
It has only shot 4 groups, ever.
There is less than $100 invested in the action, barrel, and stock.

What is wrong with me and my various AR15s?
I think it is the long throats.
I cannot seat the bullets out far enough to reach the lands, even with 69 gr bullets seated so long they are way to long to fit in the magazine. Still they do not reach.

As far as how to load for accuracy, most of the things on your long list will not help you.

[HiBC]

I respectfully disagree the things you are doing will not help.

AR's with free float barrels will shoot as well as most "varmint grade" bolt guns

Pick up Precision Shootings handloading guide for NRAHi-Power

They discuss "pretty good" ammo.Most bang for the buck touches.

The idea is,the point of diminishing returns.At some point,your time is better spent shooting than reloading.
Sure,Lapua is the brass for getting very serious,but Win brass is good brass,a lot less expensive.

They suggested,and I agree,neck chamfer,inside and out.How much?Mostly just break the edge so it wont shave.

Inspect flash holes for concentricity,and deburr.How much? just enough to break the edge.

Brush out the necks with a bore brush,

They describe a method of setting up dies for best concentricity,common dies.They use an O-ring

You also may have difficulty with VLD bullets.They can be picky about seating length vs lands.

In your 69 gr bullets,try the Nosler Comps,and the Sierras.(Yeah,I bet Bergers,JLK/s,etc are fantastic.But I can near always find the Sierras and Noslers.I'm using a max load of Varget and it works for me.

[fella5]

HiBC,

Are you talking about this book: Precision*Shooting*Reloading*Guide*by*David*Brennan

I'm just looking for opinions on if what I'm doing is correct. I knew that if I mentioned I was shooting an AR I would get some responses about how the gun shoots. But if I wanted to reload accurate ammo for a high-powered bolt rifle, would my procedure be the right way to go or not. The reason I wanted to get into reloading was to see how good I can make ammo shoot out my gun for accuracy purposes and it is the same reason I joined a shooting club that allows me to shoot up to 600 yards. I know the limitations to my AR, but i'm also looking at getting a bolt action rifle for this purpose. (wife doesn't really like guns so I can't just go out and buy one).

I read alot of stuff here on this forum and others, but still in the learning process. You guys know more about this than I and that's why I had to ask. Any info to me is good info (good or bad it is well taken)

Scott

[Powderman]

It sounds to me like you might be doing a bit too much. Moreover, you might be using the wrong BULLET.

You mentioned a 69 grain bullet. Hopefully, you're shooting a barrel with a 1:7 twist. If not, take a look at a lighter bullet.

For my precision loads, this is what I do:

1. Clean the cases, of course.
2. Neck size and deprime.
3. Clean the primer pockets.
4. Trim, chamfer and deburr.
5. Separate cases by weight.
6. For new cases, neck-turn and/or inside ream as needed.

Set the cases to the side.

Choose bullets. Separate the bullets by weight.
Prime and seat primers to a uniform depth.
Weigh powder by hand, to the most exact level possible on a scale which has been placed on a platform leveled on 4 axes.

Seat bullets carefully, record results, and head to the range!

Finally, some people here are saying that the .223/5.56 cartridge loses accuracy after 300 meters. Don't let a Marine hear you say that--they qualify to 500 meters using IRON SIGHTS.

[gearheadpyro]

I have to agree that for an AR, unless it was made for varmints or competition, that seems a little excessive. Most factory AR's are not made to shoot pinhole groups.

I wrote an article on my website explaining how I do the Reloading Process, it might be worth a look. (http://www.rifles-shooting-reloading...g-process.html)

Hope it helps.

[fella5]

My AR has a 1:7 twist and my best 5 shot group so far on factory ammo is .75" and my worse is 2.56". I guess I want to see if reloading the correct way will be better than factory ammo I have been shooting.

Again, sooner or later I will be picking up a bolt action rifle (looking at a Remington 700) and want to make sure my proccess is okay or not.

gearheadpyro,

I will check out your website and thanks for all the input!

Thanks!

[vranasaurus]

The best advice I ever heard was:

Spend less time worrying about your loads and more time working on your shooting technique.

The general consensus among some very good high power shooters seems to be that the AR is not real finnicky when it comes to loads.

You can have the best loads in the world but if the gun isn't pointed in the right direction it won't hit the bullseye.

[fella5]

Good point and I have heard that too. But if your ammo isn't good, won't that make you think you are doing something wrong in your technique? I just want to find a load that shoots consistent out of my rifle. Plus reloading is a hobby to me and taking time to reload accurate or the best ammo I can (winter over here) isn't a waste of time for me. I have 2k+ of various factory ammo that I can shoot, but its knowing i'm doing the best I can to produce an accurate ammo is what I'm striving for.

Scott

[A_Gamehog]

Change one thing, try Varget or Reloader 15 with the Hornady Match 75 Grain Bullets.

Magazine length on AR's is 2.260" you will find that a 75 grain Hornady Match can be loaded longer for even more accuracy.

This limit on the magazine 2.260" does not pertain to "Single Loaded" rounds. The maximum length is determined by other Variables.

It's good to 600 yards+

[fella5]

A_Gamehog,

Thanks for the tip. I actually have 2lbs of Varget and 2k of Remington 7 1/2 small rifle primers. Was going to get 1lb of Reloaders 15 and some TAC, but decided to try one thing at a time I purchased 500 69gr Sierra MatchKings and from purchasing the Hornady LNL, Hornady will send me 1K of the 55gr SP W/C. Might pick up some Nosler Comps as someone suggested and the Hornady 75 Gr as you suggest. I don't mid if I have to turn gas system on my AR to off to load one at a time.

Scott

[vranasaurus]

You could do all that and still be worried about the quality of your ammunition.

An AR will shoot pretty consistently regardless.

Change one thing, try Varget or Reloader 15 with the Hornady 75 Grain Bullets.

I would agree. I use Varget in my service rifle loads, only because it was available and bought 20 lbs, but RL 15 seems to be the most popular for service rifle shooters. These are widely regarded as a couple of the best powders for shooting heavy bullets out of a .223.

Here is what I do:

1. Clean cases
2. Lube cases
3. Size Cases
4. Clean lube off cases
5. Swage primer pcokets if necessary to remove crimp (I pretty much use lake city brass)
6. Trim, Debur, and chamfer
7. Prime cases
8. Fill cases with powder (I use a Lymna 1200)
9. Seat Bullet

My current load for 200 and 300 is 24.5 grains of varget, remington 7.5 primer, 77 gr SMK, COAL 2.260" (~1.860" to the ogive with the hornady comparator) in a LC case.

For 600 I use an 80 gr SMK seated .010" off the rifling.

When I put one in the 6 or 7 ring (About 10 times a match) it ain't the ammo it's the shooter.

[A_Gamehog]

One more thing to experiment with,

Some load books recomend magnum primers with Hodgdon Powders. With my 75 grain Varget compressed loads I use CCI-450's . I found it does make a difference.

Good luck!

[jepp2]

fella5,

Is your bore chrome lined?

Do you have a forearm that isn't free floating?

M4 barrel?

These could limit the accuracy potential of your AR.

[ISP 5353]

Lots of good advice. I did find that I had better results when I went to a competition seating die. Good luck!

[Bullet94]

I load like this -

1. Clean cases
2. Lube cases
3. Size Cases
4. Clean lube off cases
5. Clean primer pockets
6. Trim, Debur, and chamfer
7. Prime cases
8. Fill cases with powder (I weigh each charge)
9. Seat Bullet to mag length

Some AR’s can shoot pretty good -

[mbreitba]

I agree that you may be doing too much and worrying about things that aren't as important.

I've shot several 5 round groups that look like someone shot a 30-06 at the target.

The most important thing that I have found is keeping the OAL identical, making sure you are hand weighing each powder charge, and using non-canalured bullets.

My best loads have come out of Lake City brass with 75 gr. A-Max bullets.

The other thing that I can tell you is that you need to experiment, experiment, experiment. I used the incrediload guide to work up my best loads, and I wouldn't recommend any other way to develop loads for your gun. Every gun is different, and my gun may shoot a certain load great, and your gun might group that same load like someone is throwing rocks at the target.

Check out the incrediload guide here : http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/m...incredload.pdf

I'd say following that guide was the single best thing that I did in my reloading process.

[fella5]

Thanks again for all the info

[HiBC]

I have had real good luck with the 69 gr in a 1 in 9 twist 16 in H-bar.This is a rifle put together from my brother's accumulation of odd parts he has won shooting 3 gun matches.Its an Olympic bbl,and its good for quarter size groups at 100 yds.It put 10 rds in a 500 yd group I could cover with my hand.

I just received a Northern Competition(Badger) DMR bbl with a 1 in 8 twist.Still building.
I have some 77 gr Sierras and some 77 gr Bergers to try.Another bullet I want to try is a 75 gr Hornady match.These are quite reasonably priced.
These are not VLDs,just match BTHPs All will fit in an AR mag.I am in the development stage,so can't give results.My point,try heavier bullets in that 1 in 7.It will stabilize heavier bullets than you can mag feed.

You might try this weight range with that 1 in 7.Varget is a good,clean burn,temperature tolerant,and gives good accuracy/velocity.

Do you have a pickle of some kind threaded on your muzzle?A big(like 7/16 )hole through the middle is good.

I guess,for me,once a rifle is in the .75MOA league,its sweet.

Suppose I have 2 minutes a round in .75 MOA ammo.If I can improve that by choosing another powder or bullet,cool.

But,if I have to put in 5 minutes a round,versus 2 minutes a round,to get 3/8 MOA ammo,I would rather have 2 1/2 times as much ammo.The radius of the group only improves 3/16 in.Maybe you can see that on a bench,but I cannot shoot well enough to take advantage of 3/16 at 100 yds.

So,for me,better I should practice shooting more.

All due respect to your efforts,I cannot exceed the ammo/rifle I have.

[frogsaw]

Bullet94

That group looks a little bigger than you report it. If those holes are .223" whay does it look like you can fit 5 or more between your left most and right most shots? Just curious.

[fella5]

jeep2,

My AR isn't a competition AR. I have an LWRC M6A3 and know that the barrel etc will affect my accuracy. Im looking for consistancy in the ammo I shoot. I wanted to get some opinion in how others process ammo for shooting for accuracy and competition. Planning on getting a bolt action for my target shooting but that hasn't happen yet)

Scott

[Clark]

I know someone getting .25" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with a Tupperware [cheap] Rem700 223.

His handloads are very simple and fast:
Win brass
Chamfer inside of neck
40 gr Vmax moly
De cap old primers
Lubes the case
Size with RCBS die without sizer ball, adjusted to not bump shoulder
Seat the primer
Measures the powder with RCBS uniflow powder measure
Seat bullet with RCBS die
Seats the bullet long, and jams into lands
The press looks so old, it must pre date the rockchucker
The shooting bench looks like a portable card table.
The rest is a Dog-gone-good shooting bag
The scope is a $120 Asian cheapee on 18X


What he does not do:
Weigh brass
chamfer outside of neck
turn necks
clean brass
de burr flash hole
expand neck with a mandrel
weigh powder charges
Measure neck tension
Trim brass
Measure OAL at the ogive [he lacks the equipment]
Measure the runout [he lacks the equipment]
No glass bedding the rifle
He does not go target shooting unless the flag in front of his house is hanging straight down


What does it all mean?
blah blah blah concentric ammo blah blah blah no wind

[HiBC]

Clark,no put down or disrespect intended.Earlier you said the best group YOU have ever gotten in 12 years with an AR is 1.050.

Then you tell us about some other guy who......and that those who consider other factors,like concentricity,are making blah,blah blah.....

Really,if what your friend does works,it ought to work for you!

I have shot,with an AR I made of a bucket of parts given to me,a 10 shot 4inch group at 500 yds.It has shown me .625 groups at 100 yds,sometimes.Typically,it is inside an inch.

BTW,before Nosler had any data published for their 69 gr bullet,and before there was ANY published data for Varget,I took my chronograph and dveloped my own load for Win Brass and a 69 gr bullet.I found my max load @ 25.5 grs Varget and use 25.Later,after I contacted Nosler and Hogdon,they confirmed my data.

I can get results

The one I'm almost finished buying parts for has a Northern Competition/Badger 1 in 8 bbl,Jewell trigger,Yankee hill lightweight free float forend,etc.I suspect it will be a sub-MOA rifle,we will see.



In fairness,I do not buy all the tools in Sinclair,but if I could not get the accuracy I wanted ,measuring the concentricity of my ammo would be one place to investigate why my ammo would not shoot well.