.30-06 ammo acquisition

Windwood · March 21, 2018, 11:47 AM

Hi, I hope this is the right place to ask this question.
I acquired 120 rounds of .30-06 in a rifle purchase yesterday and, while most of it seems just fine, there is a bandolier of 50 rounds which I am not sure about. I'll be using this ammo in a Remington 700, 721, and a Winchester 70.
The stuff in the bandolier is suspect to me and I was wondering if it's really old WWII stuff and should be left alone or not. It seems serviceable, even though it looks like it's been around awhile. Also, not sure which military ordinance uses .30-06 in a bandolier, but the stuff in the bandolier doesn't say Springfield, so not sure if that's an issue or not also.
Thanks for replies.

Marco Califo · March 21, 2018, 12:01 PM

Its 1988 Ammo in a link-belt for a machine gun. That is NOT a bandolier. No headstamp for factory/maker. 88 is the year. Looks like sealed and crimped Berdan primer. So, who made it? It was made for one of the countries who use/used it. To take a guess Pakistani, there is Paki surplus around in 30-06, some on Garand clips. Not Korean. PPU is Prvi Partisan. I think they look like typical surplus, and in good condition.
That Winchester and Remington stuff may be unsafe. Send it to me and I will test it and let you know if it worked.

Don Fischer · March 21, 2018, 01:12 PM

Just suspecting something might be wrong will keep me from shooting it. I'd pull the bullet's, look see how many flash holes are in the bottom of the case. Then might be able to load them one time if they are Berdan primer's.

emcon5 · March 21, 2018, 03:46 PM

The "88" headstamp .30-06 on a Browning 1919 belt has been widely reported as Yugoslavian produced for export to Venezuela. I have a full belt of it.

It is supposed to be equivalent to M2 ball, from what I was able to find. Should be OK plinking ammo from a bolt gun, but I wouldn't run it in a M1 Garand without a adjustable gas plug.

Mobuck · March 21, 2018, 04:22 PM

"Just suspecting something might be wrong will keep me from shooting it. I'd pull the bullet's, look see how many flash holes are in the bottom of the case. Then might be able to load them one time if they are Berdan primer's."
I'm not sure that's the problem or solution. Berdan primers would have nothing to do with how you loaded or fired the ammo. What would be an issue is if the primers are corrosive which I highly doubt if the headstamp is actually dated "88".

emcon5 · March 21, 2018, 04:48 PM

Opinions differ, but I personally would also assume the belted stuff is corrosive and clean accordingly.

All this means is that the primers have salt in them, which will attract moisture and if left alone will encourage rust. All you need to do to clean it is run hot water through the bore to dissolve and flush away the salts.

Some discussion here:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-on-30-06-Ammo

Ignore the bit about Western Ammo, evidently they used an 88 headstamp once, and it is on a list somewhere, but it is pretty unlikely this is from them, the sealed primers indicates Military ammo, and Western didn't make it.

Marco Califo · March 21, 2018, 08:57 PM

The 88 may, or may not, be year of manufacture. I found a report (gunboards.com) that this "88" ammo was Yugoslav manufacture, for Venezuela, and the picture of the primers matched. I got booted (before I could capture the image) for having no access rights, and registered for the site, confirmed my email, and am awaiting moderator manual approval. It did not say it was bad ammo. Apparently it was some sort of black op where the maker, purpose, and source of the ammo was "redacted" down to the head-stamp. The posts were ~5 years old, and the ammo of course is older.
My info seems to be the same as the post just above it. By using that link, I did not see the primer picture with orange sealant that I wanted to capture.

T. O'Heir · March 22, 2018, 12:14 PM

The '88' means Western Cartridge Company (Olin), East Alton, IL. according to the Cartridge Collector's list(people who don't use internet forum sites for research). No mention of Yugoslavia using any numbers alone on head stamps.
WCC most certainly did make military ammo, but I suspect this isn't their's just the same. W.W. II vintage ammo it ain't though.
You cannot tell anything about the primer by just looking at it.
http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes
Ammo with any metric(the 9,7 g that has the European , vs the English dot.) on the package is European though.
"...military ordinance..." It's Ordnance. An ordinance is a law. And that's an MG belt like Marco Califo says.

emcon5 · March 22, 2018, 01:31 PM

Quote:

The '88' can mean Western Cartridge Company (Olin), East Alton, IL. according to the Cartridge Collector's list(people who don't use internet forum sites for research)

Fixed that for you.

Here is the belt I have:

Marco Califo · March 22, 2018, 03:41 PM

.30-06 88.jpg
.30-06 88 Picture
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-on-30-06-Ammo
Back Story: There was WWII "resistance", OSS facilitation, and U.S. Support during WWII to USSR, and after WWII, to "non-aligned" Yugoslavia, which U.S. wanted to support. This support included vehicles with 30.06 machine guns. Anyway the Yugoslavs had the need, knowledge and equipment, as well as PP and other arms factories.
However, that does not specifically explain why this ammo is marked "88 .30-06" and nothing else. But it has been floating around in surplus markets for years. Other than the possibility of corrosive priming compounds, and possible hotness, I have not read anything bad about it. And those possible negatives were countered by views that it was good and safe. I do not own a Garand. I would shoot this stuff in a Savage 30-06, if I had gun and ammo. If I did own a Garand, I would not shoot it, and would instead use current component handloads.

James K · March 22, 2018, 07:33 PM

I doubt that the "88" ammo is either American-made or made by the Western Cartridge Co. While "black" ammo has been made in the US for various purposes (the AN/BN/CN ammo used by he CIA is an example), I have never seen US made ammo marked with only a date (more likely, the "88" is a factory designation, not a date).

Commercial ammo marked with the standard SAAMI caliber designation would have the normal commercial company name marking, not a code. Ammo made by/for the US government would have the standard abbreviation for the contractor and the date (again the covert AN/BN/CN ammo is an exception, with its fictitious "40" and "41" dates).

I have no doubt that the ammo was made overseas, probably in Yugoslavia, where that type of marking is common. The box markings of PPU seem to confirm that.

Jim

Bartholomew Roberts · March 22, 2018, 08:50 PM

PPU is Privi Partizan in Serbia (formerly a part of Yugoslavia). That and the red lacquer sealant all over the primer highly suggest the Yugoslavia story isn’t too far off the mark.

emcon5 · March 22, 2018, 09:08 PM

Quote:

PPU is Privi Partizan in Serbia (formerly a part of Yugoslavia). That and the red lacquer sealant all over the primer highly suggest the Yugoslavia story isn’t too far off the mark.

The belted stuff and the boxed PPU are two different things. Pretty sure the PPU stuff is relatively recent* production for commercial sale, I could be mistaken but I don't think it has been available all that long. I have some of it in the garage as well, it has the standard PPU headstamp.

*On Edit: By "recent" I mean introduced in the past 8-10 years. The PPU M1 ammo is by all accounts good stuff.

**44 AMP** · March 23, 2018, 04:26 PM

Quote:

What would be an issue is if the primers are corrosive which I highly doubt if the headstamp is actually dated "88".

Even if 88 is the date, it could still be corrosive primed. US GI ammo of that date wouldn't be, but ammo made elsewhere (and that's what this appears to be) could be.

Clean after shooting as if it were corrosive primed, and all will be well.

RC20 · March 23, 2018, 10:18 PM

Having shot a bit of HXP in 30-06 (probably the only way it comes) its not worth shooting.

Lousy accuracy, very hot.

With that stuff you have not idea what you have and shoot all 50 rounds and then you might have an idea but nothing more.

For 50 rounds, why bother, pull and save the bullets if you want, see what kind of ignition type it really has out of curiosity .

Or find and give it to someone with a 30 cal machine gun that just sprays rounds out.

emcon5 · March 23, 2018, 11:47 PM

Why are you bringing up HXP? It is Greek, and he doesn't have any of that. It is also pretty good stuff, as far as Surplus .30-06 goes, M1 safe and decent accuracy in my 1903A3.

Danoobie · March 24, 2018, 03:17 AM

The PPU is pretty good, as someone else stated, I wait to see it on Ammoman, and I'll
order 500 or 1000, when I can. I like it in my Garand.

I would also leave the 88 headstamp ammo for bolt actions. My personal experience with
Paki ammo is it's pretty crusty stuff. Just not dependable.

RC20 · March 24, 2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Why are you bringing up HXP? It is Greek, and he doesn't have any of that. It is also pretty good stuff, as far as Surplus .30-06 goes, M1 safe and decent accuracy in my 1903A3.

It foreign made, unknown in the primer, its hot and erratic SD, and its an unknown barrel wear aspect with the steel in the bullet. Like the 88 I suspect it was made for machine guns.

OP asked for an opinion and I am giving him one based on my experience.

Marco Califo · March 24, 2018, 04:23 PM

Quote:

OP asked for an opinion

About ammo he purchased and photographed for us.

Quote:

and I am giving him one based on my experience.

About some other ammo that is irrelevant in this thread.

RC20 · March 25, 2018, 01:39 PM

Clearly I am supposed to forget all previous experience, of course, how silly of me.

Windwood · March 26, 2018, 09:23 AM

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'll probably find someone to give this to. I will shoot the PPU's though.

March 21, 2018, 12:01 PM	#2
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Its 1988 Ammo in a link-belt for a machine gun. That is NOT a bandolier. No headstamp for factory/maker. 88 is the year. Looks like sealed and crimped Berdan primer. So, who made it? It was made for one of the countries who use/used it. To take a guess Pakistani, there is Paki surplus around in 30-06, some on Garand clips. Not Korean. PPU is Prvi Partisan. I think they look like typical surplus, and in good condition. That Winchester and Remington stuff may be unsafe. Send it to me and I will test it and let you know if it worked. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; March 21, 2018 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Typo/spelling

March 21, 2018, 08:57 PM	#7
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	The 88 may, or may not, be year of manufacture. I found a report (gunboards.com) that this "88" ammo was Yugoslav manufacture, for Venezuela, and the picture of the primers matched. I got booted (before I could capture the image) for having no access rights, and registered for the site, confirmed my email, and am awaiting moderator manual approval. It did not say it was bad ammo. Apparently it was some sort of black op where the maker, purpose, and source of the ammo was "redacted" down to the head-stamp. The posts were ~5 years old, and the ammo of course is older. My info seems to be the same as the post just above it. By using that link, I did not see the primer picture with orange sealant that I wanted to capture. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; March 21, 2018 at 09:08 PM.

March 22, 2018, 12:14 PM	#8
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The '88' means Western Cartridge Company (Olin), East Alton, IL. according to the Cartridge Collector's list(people who don't use internet forum sites for research). No mention of Yugoslavia using any numbers alone on head stamps. WCC most certainly did make military ammo, but I suspect this isn't their's just the same. W.W. II vintage ammo it ain't though. You cannot tell anything about the primer by just looking at it. http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes Ammo with any metric(the 9,7 g that has the European , vs the English dot.) on the package is European though. "...military ordinance..." It's Ordnance. An ordinance is a law. And that's an MG belt like Marco Califo says. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

March 22, 2018, 03:41 PM	#10
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	.30-06 88 Picture .30-06 88.jpg .30-06 88 Picture http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-on-30-06-Ammo Back Story: There was WWII "resistance", OSS facilitation, and U.S. Support during WWII to USSR, and after WWII, to "non-aligned" Yugoslavia, which U.S. wanted to support. This support included vehicles with 30.06 machine guns. Anyway the Yugoslavs had the need, knowledge and equipment, as well as PP and other arms factories. However, that does not specifically explain why this ammo is marked "88 .30-06" and nothing else. But it has been floating around in surplus markets for years. Other than the possibility of corrosive priming compounds, and possible hotness, I have not read anything bad about it. And those possible negatives were countered by views that it was good and safe. I do not own a Garand. I would shoot this stuff in a Savage 30-06, if I had gun and ammo. If I did own a Garand, I would not shoot it, and would instead use current component handloads. __________________ ............

March 23, 2018, 10:18 PM	#15
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Having shot a bit of HXP in 30-06 (probably the only way it comes) its not worth shooting. Lousy accuracy, very hot. With that stuff you have not idea what you have and shoot all 50 rounds and then you might have an idea but nothing more. For 50 rounds, why bother, pull and save the bullets if you want, see what kind of ignition type it really has out of curiosity . Or find and give it to someone with a 30 cal machine gun that just sprays rounds out. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

March 21, 2018, 01:12 PM	#3
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	Just suspecting something might be wrong will keep me from shooting it. I'd pull the bullet's, look see how many flash holes are in the bottom of the case. Then might be able to load them one time if they are Berdan primer's.

March 21, 2018, 03:46 PM	#4
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	The "88" headstamp .30-06 on a Browning 1919 belt has been widely reported as Yugoslavian produced for export to Venezuela. I have a full belt of it. It is supposed to be equivalent to M2 ball, from what I was able to find. Should be OK plinking ammo from a bolt gun, but I wouldn't run it in a M1 Garand without a adjustable gas plug.

March 21, 2018, 04:22 PM	#5
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Just suspecting something might be wrong will keep me from shooting it. I'd pull the bullet's, look see how many flash holes are in the bottom of the case. Then might be able to load them one time if they are Berdan primer's." I'm not sure that's the problem or solution. Berdan primers would have nothing to do with how you loaded or fired the ammo. What would be an issue is if the primers are corrosive which I highly doubt if the headstamp is actually dated "88".

March 21, 2018, 04:48 PM	#6
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	Opinions differ, but I personally would also assume the belted stuff is corrosive and clean accordingly. All this means is that the primers have salt in them, which will attract moisture and if left alone will encourage rust. All you need to do to clean it is run hot water through the bore to dissolve and flush away the salts. Some discussion here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-on-30-06-Ammo Ignore the bit about Western Ammo, evidently they used an 88 headstamp once, and it is on a list somewhere, but it is pretty unlikely this is from them, the sealed primers indicates Military ammo, and Western didn't make it.

March 22, 2018, 07:33 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I doubt that the "88" ammo is either American-made or made by the Western Cartridge Co. While "black" ammo has been made in the US for various purposes (the AN/BN/CN ammo used by he CIA is an example), I have never seen US made ammo marked with only a date (more likely, the "88" is a factory designation, not a date). Commercial ammo marked with the standard SAAMI caliber designation would have the normal commercial company name marking, not a code. Ammo made by/for the US government would have the standard abbreviation for the contractor and the date (again the covert AN/BN/CN ammo is an exception, with its fictitious "40" and "41" dates). I have no doubt that the ammo was made overseas, probably in Yugoslavia, where that type of marking is common. The box markings of PPU seem to confirm that. Jim

March 22, 2018, 08:50 PM	#12
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	PPU is Privi Partizan in Serbia (formerly a part of Yugoslavia). That and the red lacquer sealant all over the primer highly suggest the Yugoslavia story isn’t too far off the mark.

March 23, 2018, 11:47 PM	#16
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	Why are you bringing up HXP? It is Greek, and he doesn't have any of that. It is also pretty good stuff, as far as Surplus .30-06 goes, M1 safe and decent accuracy in my 1903A3.

March 24, 2018, 03:17 AM	#17
Danoobie Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2017 Posts: 351	The PPU is pretty good, as someone else stated, I wait to see it on Ammoman, and I'll order 500 or 1000, when I can. I like it in my Garand. I would also leave the 88 headstamp ammo for bolt actions. My personal experience with Paki ammo is it's pretty crusty stuff. Just not dependable.

March 25, 2018, 01:39 PM	#20
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Clearly I am supposed to forget all previous experience, of course, how silly of me. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

March 26, 2018, 09:23 AM	#21
Windwood Junior Member Join Date: March 21, 2018 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 2	Thanks for all the replies guys. I'll probably find someone to give this to. I will shoot the PPU's though.