Good Load?

[sty]

I am just starting to get into reloading. My question is I have worked up a few different loads of 40 S&W for my Springfield subcompact and it seams to not like being pushed hard before my groups start to open up, does this have anything to do with how short the barrel is or is it just the way it is. How do you all determine what works for you and your firearms.

[Nick_C_S]

Does this have anything to do with how short the barrel is? Or is it just the way it is?

Possibly. And. . .
Possibly.

Simple questions. Answers abound. First, honestly, how good of a shot are you to begin with? How much experience do you have with that particular gun?

Short barrels usually aren't inaccurate in and of themselves. But with them, comes short sight radii, and light weight. Both make a consistent aim more difficult. How tight you hold the gun will effect the bullet's trajectory.

Since you posted this in the Handloading section, and not the General Handgun forum, I'm compelled to ask:

What are these loads that you worked up? Tell us the details about them. Maybe something will pop up there that can shed some light.

[SauerGrapes]

I like using powders like Universal, SR7625,WSF and American Select. I stay away from the fast burning powders with 180gr bullets.
Nick pretty much covered the rest.
Loading lead, FMJ, plated?

[Valornor]

Define "push hard"

Really when it comes to load data you need to post something like the following.

Powder: Unique: 4.5grns
Bullet: 180grn rn plated
OAL: 1.xxx
Primer: CCI small pistol.
Brass: optional

If your using lead bullets, heavier charges can cause groups to open up. However I think if your driving hotter and hotter 180 grain loads it may be due to increased recoil. Are you using a rest to check your groups?

[sty]

Loads are CCI SP, 165gr Berry's FP over 3.7gr of Clays and 180gr Gold Dots over 8.5gr over Blue Dot. These are the loads I picked on my workup. I go in .2gr jumps per load, and seems as I get to the top of the load per my manuals the groups open up some. I have over 1500 rounds though this weapon, and average a 2" - 2 1/2" groups with factory rounds off hand. I guess what I want to know is how do you decided on where to stop on your workup? Are you going for good groups or just function?

[ligonierbill]

FWIW, here is one experience with .40 S&W workup. I have some Winchester Ranger 155 JHP rounds, my primary defense load. So, I thought to duplicate these with some Speer GDHP 155s. I work up over a chronograph, and the Rangers go 1,172 with Std of 16.9 out of my Glock 23. Speer reports a max load of Power Pistol of 9 grains and just over 1,200. (I really like Power Pistol.) Well, I got 1,196/Std 17.3 with 8.4 grains. At 8.6, 1,199/17.7, at which point the chrono started missing reads, but I recorded 1,211 at 8.8 and one read of 1,251 at 9.0. So, a 5% increase in powder from 8.4 to 8.8 only netted me 15 fps, and the jump at 9 says "pressure spike" to me. So yes, it is not at all unlikely that your heavier loads are getting a little erratic, even within published data. I wasn't shooting for group, just making sure I didn't shoot the chronograph (not that I've ever done that). But my selected load is 0.6 grains below published max, and I'll bet they group better than I can shoot. I'll plug (unintended pun) chronographs. They're cheap, and they give some useful data.

[Nathan]

Bullets are the issue. Both are plated.

IME, about 1050 is optimal for my 155 Raineers. I would not know how hot to get the Gold Dot's, but I think they might prefer a slower powder like AA#5 or Longshot, IMO.

[ligonierbill]

Gold Dots are certainly not plated. Speer brags on their construction and jacket bonding technique. Speer did test AA#5 at 100 fps slower at max load than Power Pistol or Blue Dot (Blue Dot tops PP as their top performer by 8 fps). They did not test Longshot, but Hornady got their best performance out of it, topping PP by 50 fps with 155 XTPs. Might be worth a try, if I could find some.

[sty]

Thanks for all the replies. I am just getting into this and doing it all by the seat of pants feel. So my take is as working up a load it is on a bell curve as the pressure builds.

[SauerGrapes]

So my take is as working up a load it is on a bell curve as the pressure builds.

Funny thing about hand loading, there are always variables you can't account for. That might be the case with your gun and a particular bullet/powder combo but I wouldn't say that's written in stone.
I have found some really accurate loads in particular guns at both ends of the spectrum. [YMMV]

[sty]

Thanks...I just want to do this right and have a understanding of why things happen the way they do.

[Nathan]

Gold Dot Construction

Sounds plated to me. How else do I jacket something "one molecule at a time?"

[ligonierbill]

I think we all know the difference between a "plated" bullet, a lead bullet with a few mils of coating, and a jacketed hollow point, no matter how the jacket is applied. If GDHP behaved like plated bullets, why would they be used in premium defensive ammo?

[Valornor]

When it comes to working up loads for pistol I usually say stick to the starting load or just above. If your grouping well, and it's reliable there is no really good reason to push the bullet any harder then you need to. As previously stated by others you are seeing the increase in group size because you are reaching the limits of what the bullets are capable of.

Also I might look at your powder selection. Clays and Blue Dot work in pistol but there are other powders that you are ping to find are a little better for you. Unique and Bulleye being the top two that come to mind. Clays and blue dot are more of shotgun powders in my opinion. They work fine in pistol but there are better options out there.

[Nick_C_S]

Here comes ol' Nick - recommending a faster powder lol

I'm going to refocus the conversation here.

180gr Gold Dots over 8.5gr over Blue Dot.

First, I'm curious if this is one of those rounds that "start to open up?" If so, it could just be as simple as recoil. Even if one doesn't anticipate recoil, the recoil itself will cause deviations, in terms of the shooter's accuracy. Even when shooting from a bench. It happens.

My next concern is the load itself. Those how know me in TFL, know I'm a self-confessed fast-powder-centric loader. Because you're shooting from a 3" barrel platform, I would shy away from powders as slow as Blue Dot. Even with that heavy 180g bullet - which brings things back into balance a little - I think that Blue Dot is too slow for your application. The bullet is exiting that short barrel before Blue Dot has finished pushing it, basically.

I get a lot of disagreement here. I read of people loading W296 for their 357 Mag slubbies - and I just roll my eyes. A lot of loaders don't get the dynamics of powder combustion, and the various trade-offs that must be considered in a given application. Most loaders arrive at slower powder for a given application than I do. There's a lot more going on in the real world that must be factored in, than just looking at a load manual and seeing which powder yielded the highest velocity numbers. (I also think that 180g bullets are too heavy for 40 S&W, and should be reserved for 10mm. But I'll leave that be, for the sake of maintaining focus.)

Additionally, Blue Dot is naturally a high-flash powder; and through a 3" barrel, the problem is only exacerbated. If you're building up a defense round (and the use of the GDHP tells me you are), muzzle flash should be a major consideration in your powder selection.

For your application, I would recommend a medium speed powder. Unique, Power Pistol, HS-6, 3N37, & AA5 would all be better choices. They will be naturally lower in flash because they will be "more expended" when the bullet leaves your short barrel. But the best choice by far, would be Ramshot Silhouette (info I learned from 57K - giving credit where it's due). It's the perfect medium speed, and it's treated to be low flash.

[sty]

These are the replies I was looking for. Not knowing what the different between powders are. I just went with what was in the manuals I have and could find in stock at the time I was buying. I do agree with the recoil statement, but now that you say that about the muzzle flash that has me thinking about that because it was big.

[sty]

So what you are saying is a short barrel needs a faster powder then say a 5" barrel. That was one thing I seen in my manuals is everything was tested in a full size 5"

[ligonierbill]

Not necessarily, and all my manuals used a 4" barrel. You may want a slightly lower charge in a shorter barrel - a max load is probably wasting powder. The fun (or annoying, depending on your outlook) thing about loading your own is the opportunity to try different things.

[sty]

You are right on the 4" barrel I went and looked after I posted that. And I do like to play around with different things so yes this is fun for me. I just need to learn what causes this or that. I have a lot to learn and I appreciate everybody comments.

[Nick_C_S]

sty, if your gun was a 4" barrel, I would have been far less inclined to have even mentioned the powder selection - especially with those giant, lumbering, 180g slugs A heavier slug has the net effect of increasing powder burn rate.

Speaking of which: What prompted your selection of the 180's? For a 3" 40 S&W, I think the best choice is the 165's. That short barrel is quite capable of pushing a 165 to a speed where its expansion characteristics should be good and reliable. 180s - not so much.

I know we buy what's available these days. I've gotten lucky and managed to stock up on both GDHP's in 165 & 180. (I load for 10mm.)

I'm also curious if your 180s are the standard 4406 GDHP's or the 4401 SB's? Because the 4401's are designed to expand at lower velocities - and may make for an acceptable bullet for 40 Cal. - at which point, I'll take back everything I just said

[sty]

They are the SB's. I like the 165's but that is all I have seen in months.

[Nick_C_S]

Well you got the SB's. That's good. They'll work in your gun. I'd still give the nod to the 165's. But at least your 180's are the large cavity type. If you can get 'em up to about 950fps or so, you're good to go.

Now, if you can just score some Ramshot Silhouette

[JustSomeGuy]

I've used a lot of Silhouette. It will work in both short and longer barreled pistols with both 165 and 180grn bullets. However, contrary to what might be expected, the somewhat slower Longshot at 7.0grns with and 180grn bullet gave better velocities, achieving 930fps out of a 3.5" XD Compact with an OAL of 1.130. If using 165grn bullets then I think Silhouette would be better, but for 180's in a short gun Longshot seems best. With Silhouette and staying within Ramshot's loading recommendations, you will top out around 900fps with 180's in a short barreled gun. This is certainly adequate for the 180grn SB Gold Dot however, and so with that bullet either is suitable.

[sty]

Look like I will have to make the trip to my LGS next week and see what I can find. The downfall to living out in the middle of nowhere is I have to travel a long way to go and see what is in stock. The up side is I can walk out the backdoor to test my loads.

[sty]

Anybody have some suggestion on how to use the 1lbs. of Blue Dot that I all ready have? Will it work ok in any other application or calibers.