Not caliber 'wars', but honest question, based on my calibers- why would I need more?

[jmstr]

Hello,

I am trying to finalize my long-gun options. I don't have much room, and believe I am basically done. What I am trying to figure out is if I missed a strong contender for a new addition that I just overlooked, and why I should add it.

My goal is to meet my 'needs' without having 30 calibers of rifle/shotgun.


Ok, first, my 'needs/wants', then some examples of what I have.

I am primarily a casual target shooter, who will probably never take the time to be good enough to benchrest shoot 3" groups at 300 yards [not for another 20 years at least, if my state hasn't outlawed it by then- california].

I am someone who wants to be as good as I can, without spending a heck of a lot of time to get past that threshold of 'decent' to 'good' or 'great'.

If I can get a 3" group with an accurate rifle [or 5" from something that slings lead but strings its groups after 2 rounds], at 100 yards, I am pretty darned happy. That is 3" standing, with a taut sling being used for stability.

I am not a hunter. Never got into it. Not against it- for those with respect. Raised by hunters, but not rebelling against them either. I just don't feel a need to take a life if I am well fed. The way I was raised, the most important part of the hunt was the tracking and stalking- and I don't think I would ever want to take a shot at over 200 yards, unless we were in starving times. Again- MY standards, applied to ME ONLY. I am not judging anyone, and understand other situations where longer shots are appropriate.

Yet, I may want/need to hunt some day.

I live on the west coast, and nothing within 600 miles of me bigger than a black bear.

So, mainly fun shooting, caring about accuracy, at ranges out to 300 yards.

I currently have long guns in .22lr, .223/5.56 [semi and bolt], 7mm Mauser, .300Savage[lever], .308winchester [lever, bolt and semi], 7.62x54r and 12 gauge [SxS, OU, Semi, Pump].

I am thinking of an intermediate caliber lever action. I am leaning toward a .357Mag lever action rifle, as it matches up to a few revolvers I have nicely, and is cheaper to shoot than a .44mag lever action. I am not really all that interested in a 30-30, as it adds a new caliber to my ammo chest, and I already have .357mag and .44mag. Plus, it seems I can shoot .44mag about as cheap as 30-30, and BuffaloBore .44mag rounds are near 30-30 power within 100 yards.

I may get a 30-06 some day as an inheritance, but am in no rush to get one [purchase or inherit]. I don't see it being useful to me for my needs.

I realize that the 7mm and .300 savage are similar in overall power within 200 yards. I know the .308 is a bit better than the .300Savage, but not as much as a 30-06. I believe the 7.62x54 is between the .308 and the 30-06.

It seems like 30-30 is similar to a 7.62x39 in terms of power. Living in California, with our firearms restrictions, a 30-30 is easier/less scary to others to own. Either would be a new caliber to stock, so I'd probably go 30-30 to avoid irritations- IF I didn't go with the .44mag lever instead.

But, is there anything I am truly missing?

WHY would I want a 7m-08, or a 7mm Mag, or a .270 over what I DO have?

Again, I am unlikely to shoot at anything alive past 200 yards, and am even more unlikely to be hunting.

A 1/2" tighter group at 250 yards is not enough to matter to me. a 6" tighter group is. I am the problem with accuracy.

Is my reasoning 'solid'? Or did I miss something [and what/why]?

thank you in advance.

[jmr40]

All calibers are more alike than different. Truthfully you can make an accurate 308 do almost everything you've discussed.

I do hunt as well as enjoy informal target shooting at the range. I've acquired several guns in other calibers that I won't part with simply for sentimental reasons. But mostly shoot 223 and 308. Locally deer and black bear are common, but I'd have no second thoughts about taking the 308 elk hunting and pulling the trigger on an elk at 400 yards.

[Gunplummer]

Beats me. I can't relate to your thinking. I buy/sell as I drift into new things. I keep a couple of favorites for hunting that I always have ammo loaded up for, but use other guns and calibers as I acquire them. I can spend hours repairing or getting a gun to shoot well, but once it is in good shape and shoots, I lose interest. There is always something new(Or old) to play around with.

[old roper]

I haven't kept up with lead ban but going to be total by 20!9 in Calif. You have some existing rifles that handle that and let you buy what you want and not use it for hunting.

[Mobuck]

"am thinking of an intermediate caliber lever action. I am leaning toward a .357Mag lever action rifle, as it matches up to a few revolvers I have nicely, and is cheaper to shoot than a .44mag lever action."

A 357 carbine is more fun to shoot than a 44. Also cheaper(especially if it will cycle 38's) to shoot. Within 125 yards, the 357 will do most of what a 30/30 will do w/o the recoil. In the "land of semi-auto restrictions", a 357 lever action is a fairly attractive option. The "no lead" ammo thing is what will bite you on any "pistol cartridge" long gun.

[big al hunter]

It sounds like you are happy with what you have, except for the lever gun your thinking about. I would go with a .357 for cost of ammo. If you start hand loading your own ammo cost is not much different between calibers when you are shooting similar bullets.

As to a need for other calibers, as jmr40 said, you can do anything with the .308. The only reason you might need the calibers you mentioned is to get a flatter trajectory. It would not be much flatter than the .308. I don't see that you would need to get anything else. You could do everything you want to do with 3 rifles. 22lr, .223, .308. But you already have more than that. The only reason to get more calibers is because you want to. That is the reason I have more than my wife thinks I should have, but not as many as I want.

[emcon5]

Honestly, a lot of the differences in cartridges (in any particular category) come down to marketing.

The 7mm Mauser can do everything you are looking for, and it was designed in 1892.

Sure, there are exceptions, cartridges designed to meet a specific niche, but for the average shooter or hunter, what makes it fit that niche really doesn't matter.

Example, the 6.5 Creedmoor is the new trendy cartridge for LR shooters, the niche it was designed to fill was a .264 round that would fit a short action with the longer, heavy for caliber target bullets. It meets this very well, and has been quite successful, and with the right bullet could be used to take any animal in North America except maybe big bears.

The reality though, is that aside from the (excellent) packaging, it is no different ballistically than the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser from 1891, if it was loaded to the same pressure (the CM has a peak pressure about 11K PSI more than the Swede). The average hunter would not notice the difference, (except the 1/2 lb heavier rifle)and the animal shot by one certainly wouldn't.

If you had no rifles at all, for your stated use, the cartridge I would recommend you already have, .223. Mild recoil, cheap ammo, and at 300 yards the wind doesn't matter enough to bother with something bigger.

[kraigwy]

"Need" doesn't have anything to do with it.

Slaves get what they need. Freemen get what they want.

Some don't "want" a lot of rifles, some do, but its based on want, not need.

If you are happy with what you "want to" have, its not up to any of us to disagree with you.

[T. O'Heir]

It's not about the calibre or the chambering. It's about the firearm. An M1 Rifle and a 1903A3 share both, but aren't the same.
Isn't about a 'need' either. It's about a 'want'. "I want one." being the best reason to have anything.
"...The "no lead" ammo thing..." Isn't really an issue except for the stupidity of it. There are lots of solid copper hand gun bullets. Barnes makes 'em, for one.

[jmstr]

I want to thank all of you for your input.

I think I'll stop after adding a .357mag lever action.


I have space [and finance] limitations. My wife has already lost a lot of space in the closet to locked cases, and doesn't want a safe in the house.

I am not in favor of it in the garage, as I work out there with the door open a lot, and live in a suburban, high traffic, neighborhood. Don't want to advertise.

I am more of a handgun guy than a longgun guy, and live where something is difficult to get 3 years after I got it. Thus, thinking of what I will possibly need in 10 years isn't odd in California.

I probably get to an outdoor range to use longguns about once every 8 months. I get to an indoor range about once every 3 months. So I don't need as many varieties of rifles.

I also don't handload, and my state has passed a law to ban mail-order of ammo, starting in 2018. An Ariska or Lee-Enfield will become hard to feed, for example.

I appreciate the advice, and can appreciate those for whom my self-limitation is odd [or even bizarre].

Thanks again.

[jackstrawIII]

Let me posit a guess, I'm thinking you're relatively new to guns. I don't mean that in a negative way, you just remind me of myself when I was first getting into guns. The logical side of my brain took over and I tried to make my collection logical, linear, and organized without having any duplicates or calibers that did the same things.

But then there was the creative, curious side of my brain that appreciates guns and cartridges for their uniqueness, their history, and their capabilities.

So, now I have like... many different guns in many different calibers that all basically do the same thing. But they're all unique. To me, the gun is more important than the cartridge it fires. As someone said before, the various cartridges are more the same than they are different.

In my opinion, buy the guns that you want.... and get into reloading so you can feed them economically. Then just enjoy.

Ps. Short answer: the 308 basically does it all. With the 308, the 223, and the 22LR, you can kill anything in North America and shoot very cheaply. But you'll get bored with it sooner or later.

[jackstrawIII]

Also, I want to congratulate you on owning guns in 7mm Mauser and 300 Savage. Those are great, classic calibers. You have good taste, and are off to a great start.

[chuckscap]

Your 7mm Mauser and 308s are all you need for North America. As long as they are accurate, reliable and you like them you seem all set to me.

[bamaranger]

I agree with all the want v. need comments. And I see no need to explain or defend your choices regards hunting. That's your own business. I think I can vouch for all our forum members that if you are a shooter, or simply appreciate and collect firearms and do little shooting, your more than welcome here.

You don't mention any specific models, just action types, but I suspect your metric calibers are vintage surplus bolt rifles, your .300 Sav is likely an old M99. That leaves your .22lr, the .223's and the .308's as more contemporary and I'm going to speculate the most intrinsically accurate. Lots of variables there, I'm only writing in generalities, but you could "get by" with simply the three latter calibers. And, likely have "enough" to do what you want, which I interpret from your OP as mostly punch paper, and perhaps hunt medium game a bit.

All that said, it's hard to say you have what you "need" not knowing what models are involved and how their sighted. I wouldn't have some type of sporter that was not scoped, for example. And I would not take a 'scoped tactical .308 bolt rifle weighing 12 lbs or more, on say, a stalk hunt for hogs. Neither would I hunt the old Savage if it only had iron sights, on a whitetail bean field or antelope plains. On the paper punching side, I would not expect to shoot my best groups with an iron sighted .22 over one scoped, and shooting tiny 300 yd groups with your x54r Mosin would be frustrating as well. I hope you get the idea.

[bamaranger]

A few more things, you mention the "scary" 7.62x39, and certainly the AK/SKS family raise a few eybrows, but the cartridge itself is very useful and still affordable as steel case import cartridge. Please note there are indeed some very nice bolt rifles made for the cartridge, not just the evil pistol gripped mag fed semi's, , the CZ bolt rifle is likely the current best quality model, and the Savage and Ruger bolts in recent years that are out there on the market with some searching.

Also, your comments regards a .357 lever are apt, they are reasonably cheap to shoot, especially if you reload,and their wide range of cartridges (.38 spl and .357 mag) allow mild target ammo and power levels approaching 30-30. If I were searching for a "fun" lever rifle, chambered in a cartridge hotter than a .22, it would be a .357. The fact they meld nicely with a revolver so chambered is nice too, but I rarely found myself carrying both, but the concept makes sense.

As pointed out, your assortment of high power cartridges (excluding the .223) are all mostly in the same niche and the only real difference performance wise will be whatever platform from which you are launching them. To 300 yds, there is no real need to go with the latest trend in dual purpose target/hunters like the 6.5/.260 family, or super heavy like a .300 mag or .338 Lap. Unless you want to.

[jmstr]

bamaranger,

thanks for the insights.

First, I want to identify that I never had any intention of making any/all who hunt feel that I am judging anyone's choices.

I simply identified that hunting was not a significant aspect of my intended uses, and that I don't trust my aim enough to take long shots- or my eyesight or hand tremors. You are right- if I do hunt, it will most likely be medium to smaller game.

Thanks for the advice you have offered regarding the calibers I have. I appreciate it.

It is sounding more and more like the .357mag lever rifle is a 'this year' purchase, once I pay off the Colt model 357, the 1943 Brit contract Ballester-Molina, and the S&W K22 I just ordered.

I respect the 7.62x39, but I live in California. If I were to get a rifle chambered in that, it would most likely have 5 or fewer rounds in it, with the new laws. [unless I went Saiga or Mini-30, which are not known for accuracy.] If I can have 9 or 10 rounds of .357mag, loaded to comperable power factors [up to 150 yards or less], I would lean toward the .357mag.

Again, I have some handguns in it, and, if you haven't picked up- I like lever actions!

Thanks again!

[TruthTellers]

I think what you have and the future .357 Magnum is enough for you. I would also suggest you take a look at the CZ527 in 7.62x39; it's possibly the most accurate 7.62x39 rifle ever made and I've been mulling over getting one myself to complement another 7.62x39 rifle I have.

I think when it comes to long guns, the less calibers you have, the better. Personally, I don't see a point to .300 Savage or 7mm Mauser as .308 can do everything they can and much more and for the same price or less.

My list of long gun cartridges that are absolute musts are the .22 LR, .223/5.56, .308 Win, 7.62x39, and 12 gauge. But in the last year I'm liking the idea of 6.5 Creemoor and .327 Magnum rifles, the former for ultra long range shooting, the latter for short to mid-range small to medium game hunting.

I think you're in a good spot and if you don't reload, you should because California will practically be banning anything with a primer and a bullet sold in the same box soon. If you refuse to reload, I would advise looking into black powder muzzleloaders, both rifles and revolvers and looking into reloading shotshell hulls with hand tools.

Again, I think you're thinking along the right lines and best of luck to you!

[jmstr]

Thanks TruthTellers

Just for the record- I do like the 7mm mauser and the .300savage, but the reason I have those is that the 7mm mauser was my mom's rifle, and the .300savage was the first rifle my dad gave me.

I doubt I would have bought one of either, for the reasons you mentioned- namely the .308 takes care of the role those two would.

Of course I like the history [non family] of the two rounds. Namely that the 7mm mauser is what we faced at San Juan Hill, moving us to the Springfield '03 5 years later, and the .300savage playing a role in inspiring/developing into the .308.


I'll keep my eyes open for a CZ in the 7.62x39 round, but after I get a .357mag lever action.

Now, to decide WHICH .357mag lever to get. I am leaning Marlin [to match up with 39A], but this is a topic for a different thread.

[Guv]

So how much 30-30 ammo can you buy for the difference between the cost of a nice used 336 30-30 vs a 1894C 357? The pistol chambered Marlins are much more expensive in my neck of the woods.

[TruthTellers]

The .357 lever gun will come down to two questions you have to decide on. First is do you want a loading gate? If yes, don't get a Henry, if no, then the Henry represents the best value for your money.

The second question is what are you willing to spend? If it's something like $600, Rossi is your only choice, if it's $1000-1200, I think the Taylor's Alaskan Takedown rifles are awesome lever guns. They're not traditional as they are stainless steel and the wood stock and forend have this rubber coating to protect the wood.

[rc]

The Taurus/Rossi 92s are not bad guns. I have a 44 mag Rossi and a 357 marlin. I do prefer the marlin. If you can find a used marlin they are a little more comfortable and you can mount a scope or rail with peep sights more easily. The 92's are fun and I would not hesitate to buy one in 357. 357 from a rifle is a great round for popping 2 liter bottles and the Rossi is the most readily available and easiest to find in stainless which is maintenance free..... almost. Ballistics will be about 1750fps with 158 grain bullets and a bit over 2000fps with 125s but get soft points in that weight or you may have hollow points melting in mid flight due to friction with the air.

[Deja vu]

Keeping the ammo selection simple is a good thing. You can stock up on only a few kinds of rounds. I even buy the very same rounds about 90% of the time. I am a huge 357 magnum fan. I have lever actions, bolt guns, semiauto 1911s, Snub nose revolvers,Long barrel revolvers, Derringers, Single shot encore and a Silencer that I use on my bolt gun and my Coonan. Just to name them off the top of my head.

I hunt Mule deer here in Idaho with larger bullets all the way down to squirrels with round nose 38 specials and it does not do much more damage than a 22lr. I feel that it you are making a great choice with a 357 magnum rifle, especially if you all ready have pistols in that round.

But I believe in keeping it simple, All of my fire arms are 45-70 Govt, 357 magnum, 22 LR or 12 ga. It makes stocking up on ammo easy. Every pay day I buy either 1 box of 45-70 or 2 boxes of the other rounds. Then I usually replace what I shoot.

The only thing I wish I had was a long range rifle round. I have been thinking abut adding a 308 or a 30-06 but every time I try some thing stops me.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Not caliber 'wars', but honest question, based on my calibers- why would I need more?

Because:
Variety is the spice of life.
If you don't own your share you'll likely seek answers to questions like this.

lol

[CDR_Glock]

I acquired a 7mm-08 for hunting. Only because it has light recoil, and it's easier to trek in the mountains with a light rifle. It's good out to 250-300 yards.


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[ShootistPRS]

You have a good selection of different calibers and two 12 ga. shotguns. The only thing I see missing is one you would probably never need. For defense against large dangerous game - like a grizzly or polar bear. The 308 could be marginal in a defense situation like that but with a good shot the 308 will kill it.
If you find yourself wanting something for that without a ton of recoil you could get a bolt or heavy lever action in 45-70 to top off your list.

If you want to get pistol calibers get the pistols to go with them. The 357 can take deer at 75 yards if you can shoot it and putting it in a carbine won't gain much range. Along with the 357 a CZ in 45 or 40 cal are good additions. As far as I'm concerned the 9mm is best for shooting sports and not an ideal caliber for defense - though in the right hands and with the right ammo there is really nothing wrong with the 9mm either. You could get a single or double action 45 Colt (long Colt) and have a carbine for it too for a matched ammo set.