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Old October 17, 2018, 12:32 PM   #26
polyphemus
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ok, so far nobody here is saying what they gonna do with their CMP M1911A1.
We get a guess that they are speculating on them,it is called a pig in a poke.And the idea is that CMP is giving enough margin to cut a profit.Collectors what they are is pretty sharp with their money and as a general rule tend to know what they are buying,you can't inspect CMP items but they look at what may be of interest to them and place a great deal of value in complete originality.Empty cavity,I think.
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Old October 17, 2018, 12:40 PM   #27
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How does a dramatically larger number of M1911A1s on the market lead to increases in price/value?
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Old October 17, 2018, 04:39 PM   #28
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I am hoping to get a Service Grade if I get a low enough lottery number. If not, I will attempt to win a decent pistol from one of the CMP Auctions. I suspect they will be costly.

I have a Colt M1911 manufacture in 1918. It shows a lot of character from years of use, but all the parts are correct for the production period to include the interloped HP barrel. I have fired a few rounds through it and placed it in a display case with a holster, correct two tone magazine, and a few other accessories. I hope to do the same with an M1911A1. I already have a correct holster and a couple of correct period magazines.

I planned ahead on the holster and magazines in case there becomes a shortage after the CMP sales.


Wish me luck.
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Old October 17, 2018, 06:01 PM   #29
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And speaking of magazines.What are they?
General Shavers,Scovils or what? Colts work if there's provenance otherwise anything goes.Them collectors can get fussy.
The market will dictate what these flipped pieces go for,but CMP is already saying that they may have commercial parts or were somehow repaired.
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Old October 17, 2018, 06:10 PM   #30
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Check-Mate Industries was making G.I. mags in the '80s-'90s, and I'd be surprised if the CMP pistols had vintage mags.
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Old October 17, 2018, 06:16 PM   #31
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The holster is a Nam era Cathey Enterprises. One magazine is a M.S. Little Mfg. Co. and the other a Risdon Mfg. Co.
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Old October 17, 2018, 06:21 PM   #32
polyphemus
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Is this CMP lottery some kind of joke?
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Old October 17, 2018, 08:06 PM   #33
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Yes, in away it is a joke. CMP runs all the acceptable applications through a Random Number Generator (RNG). They use the system to allow applicants the opportunity to select which grade pistol he or she chooses.

The choices are Service Grade ($1,050.00), Field Grade ($950.00) and Rack Grade ($850.00). There are only 8,000 pistols available the first year. Once a grade is depleted, then the rest of the folks can either select a different grade or are out of luck. Some of the top quality pistols or rarest such as Singer, being a very rare gun, will be auctioned and sold to the highest bidder. There is currently no break-out of how many in each category. Only a person with a RNG can bid on the auctions. No one can buy more than one pistol per year.
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Old October 17, 2018, 08:22 PM   #34
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They got Singers?
Be still my 1911 heart. Union Switches,anyone?
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Old October 17, 2018, 08:47 PM   #35
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I doubt it, but who knows whether there is a Singer in the conglomeration or not. They did mention seeing a Remington-UMC in amongst a bunch of Colts in the NRA article.
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Old October 17, 2018, 08:50 PM   #36
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I would be surprised if most of these weren't mix and match in terms of parts from different companies after all these years.

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Old October 18, 2018, 06:52 AM   #37
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t is always possible there are mix and match parts. It is a war story that has been told on firearm forums for years now with some truth and a lot of false hood in my opinion.

As the NRA article mentions, these pistols have been in storage for a lot of years. The pistols in the Army Museum Crate seem to be and are expected to be rather straight. Whereas the Defense Logistics Agency crates were at one time thought to of been reconditioned at the depot level and may have a greater chance of being mix and match. It could be most of the pistols are rather honest to manufacturer parts such as slides to frame.

I was in the Army for a number of years and carried a M1911A1 in various units. I do not recall seeing any gross mix and match of parts. One unit might primarily have Colts and another unit Remington Rand. I never observed any mix and match of slides to frames. The pistols in my unit in Nam were Remington Rand.
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Old October 18, 2018, 07:19 AM   #38
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They did mention seeing a Remington-UMC in amongst a bunch of Colts in the NRA article
This is really amazing,they are just looking over the lot and amongst a run of the mill Colt's M1911A1s there is this rare WWI UMC M1911 looking like it needs a home.Either CMP doesn't know what they got or the NRA guys can find needles in haystacks without even trying.
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Old October 18, 2018, 04:05 PM   #39
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I was in the Army for a number of years and carried a M1911A1 in various units. I do not recall seeing any gross mix and match of parts. One unit might primarily have Colts and another unit Remington Rand. I never observed any mix and match of slides to frames. The pistols in my unit in Nam were Remington Rand.
The frames aren't marked as to manufacturer, so, how did you know if they matched, or not?
Colt stamped serial numbers on their slides, for about five years, so a "numbers matching" Colt would have matching slide and frame, but even serious collectors can only tell if the slide and frame of a Remington Rand are matching based on wear patterns, etc., if the other inspection markings and stamps are as they should be.

I have a '42 Colt, with the slide number three units off the frame number. This has traditionally been explained by the belief that large numbers of pistols were stripped and cleaned or serviced without concern for the maker, matching numbers, etc., during reassembly.
But after many decades of tracking such things, it became apparent that there were a lot of Colts with slides and frames within five units of each other.
There's a growing belief that guns were pulled in groups of five and tested for interchangeability, and then not matched-up again, resulting in guns that don't match, but which have been together since day two, if not day one.
That would explain why such guns have consistent wear and wear patterns even though non-matching.
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Old October 19, 2018, 02:43 PM   #40
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RickB, You make a good point. One could discern if the serial number on the frame matched the maker; i.e., Remington Rand slide to a Remington Rand frame serial number. One could not figure out if it was the same frame as the slide from the day it was assembled in the factory from day 1. With the old Colt M1911's you could tell the vintage of the slide by the placement of the Colt Rampant on the slide and/or whether it has a circle around it or not.

The Colt slides from serial number 710001 to 1140000 - 1145000 (pg. 37 of Charles Clawson's Book 3rd Ed.) had the SN stamped on the slide under where the hammer hits. You could then match the SN from slide to frame.

It would not be likely I could of detected such back at the time other than in two units I was the property book officer all the pistols were the same manufacturer. Now it is possible slides and frames could of been interchanged but they would of been Remington Rand slides on Remington Rand frames or at least - most likely. In all the units I was ever assigned to, we cleaned our individual weapons vs. a group pool to do so. This was the case even with commanders cleaning their own firearms. We both know this was not always the case and is a moot point.

So, as you correctly pointed out, I went too far with my statement in most situations.

I will hopefully be able to acquire a correct period M1911A1 with major components from the same manufacturer. I and most if not all others will never know one way or the other. It does not matter.
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Old October 22, 2018, 11:39 AM   #41
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I would be surprised if most of these weren't mix and match in terms of parts from different companies after all these years.
And this is a part of the history of these pistols.

Some collectors understand that, and some don't.
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Old October 22, 2018, 06:50 PM   #42
Walt Sherrill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat
I would be surprised if most of these weren't mix and match in terms of parts from different companies after all these years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbed77
And this is part of the history of these pistols.

Some collectors understand that, and some don't.
I"ll be surprised if many SERIOUS COLLECTORS will be acquiring CMP 1911s.

The serious collectors I've known or dealt with want guns that are in very good condition, with matching numbers/parts -- guns that don't look like they've been dragged behind a Jeep on a gravel road. Most of these collectors wouldn't look twice if they came across guns that matched the CMP descriptions posted earlier.

If you want a government-issued gun, you might want to wait until they start showing up on one of the auction sites. While you may pay more that way, at least you'll have pictures and a good idea of what you're buying!
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Old October 22, 2018, 07:14 PM   #43
polyphemus
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And this is a part of the history of these pistols.
History is based on facts,otherwise is fantasy.
CMP is selling a fantasy not history,these arms have no documented history and have been repaired or otherwise rebuilt with commercial parts.The many speculators who will buy them are hoping to cash in on the demand for genuine
WWII relics.
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