I Purchased some Underwood Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator in 10mm....

[Skans]

So, I decided to buy a couple of boxes of Underwood 10mm 140 Grain solid copper rounds. I watched some videos on this, and it does seem to have some extreme ability to penetrate, even some body armor, and keep on going.

One guy who was testing this stuff complained that it was too dangerous and was way too prone to over-penetrating. Duh, that's what it was designed to do! That was a good enough endorsement for me to purchase a couple of boxes. As for what I would use them for? Maybe home defense. Maybe just to say I have some. Certainly not EDC.

I know all of the concerns and problems with ammo over-penetrating. I was wondering if anyone has actually ever tried this stuff and what their thoughts were on it?

[Lohman446]

I have function tested some through my G29 and carry it when I carry on trails. I figure it is probably my best bet (in a handgun) against a bear.

[gnystrom]

I am carrying Underwood Extreme Defender 90gr. in my Sig P365. They have been very reliable and as accurate as any ammo I have ever used.

[Skans]

I have function tested some through my G29 and carry it when I carry on trails. I figure it is probably my best bet (in a handgun) against a bear.

That's good to know. I'm a bit concerned that this stuff may some day be "verboten".

[Bottom Gun]

I've been carrying 125 gr Xtreme Defense and 115 gr Xtreme Penetrator bullets in my .357 Sig hand loads for woods carry. We have quite a few bears here and, after a recent close encounter with one, I feel these bullets would be a better defense against a bear than hollow points if I had to use my pistol.

[Cosmodragoon]

Based on what I've seen and my simple understanding of physics:

1. It doesn't penetrate much better than FMJ in gel. This isn't really a surprise.

2. It can penetrate better than FMJ in other media or when barriers are involved. It's hard to say how much of that has to do with rigidity and how much is the unique shape. I imagine that both are involved. There is active debate about whether this or heavier hardcast bullets will be better and under what circumstances. I'm waiting to see more testing and hopefully some detailed reports of wildlife application, specifically bear and boar.

3. It tears up media along the wound channel much better than FMJ. This is where the shape really comes into play. It might not be as good as a properly expanded hollow point in this respect but it does the job without question.

So in cases where you need to get it deep to perform without question, in cases where the question is risky due to threshold (like .380 or .38 special), or in cases where arbitrary legal restrictions prevent you from using hollow points; I'd say this is a good bet.

The only thing that raises my eyebrow here is the light-for-caliber weight in 10mm. Most of the tests I've seen have been with the 115-grain projectile in 9mm and .357 Sig, or the 140-grain projectile in .357 magnum. If you get a chance to shoot some "scientific" media in the back yard or you actually bag some wildlife with these, I'd love to read about it.

[dontcatchmany]

I am interested in the Extreme Defender so I will keep an eye on this thread.

I am going to order some to try out.

I am looking at 45 acp and 40 s&w and maybe 357 magnum. I was thinking that in a short barreled 45 acp that it might be viable.

[briandg]

That's good to know. I'm a bit concerned that this stuff may some day be "verboten".

A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

Pretty specifically laid out by the ATF. if the regulators feel threatened by it, all they will have to do is ban the use of solid bullets made of unalloyed copper as well as beryllium copper alloy.

You can see from the tests that they are recovered from gel in virtually unchanged condition, the beryllium added to the copper is probably unnecessary when used against fabric armor, as it can penetrate body armor undamaged. but maybe that information that I have seen is just made up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2LK...ature=youtu.be

The laws have been written in general basing the acceptability only on the materials used. But, since we have ammo being sold right now that is, in fact, something that can blow through armor, sooner or later the ATF will ban it. All they have to do is add some specifications to the existing laws.

The law could be written to ban monolithic rounds of any kind other than lead alloy, a complete ban on solid rounds made of copper alloys, etc.

Expect it to happen. It doesn't have to go through congress.

[Sequins]

Overpenetration isn't a concern if you're taking clean shots. If you dont want to fire high penetration ammo odds are you shouldn't take the shot.

[briandg]

...

[gnystrom]

Penetration can be your friend if you consider the possibility you may be required to shoot through a windshield and that bullet needs to remain on it's intended path, a car door or the like and in today's world, your target may have some form or body armor so I prefer to have the best chance of neutralizing my target.

[JohnKSa]

...the beryllium added to the copper is probably unnecessary when used against fabric armor...

Beryllium copper alloy is very strong and hard, rivaling the strength and hardness of some steel alloys.

https://www.meadmetals.com/blog/5-un...ryllium-copper

"In fact, it achieves a hardness that rivals high-grade alloy steels while retaining the other favorable characteristics of BeCu (like electrical conductivity and corrosion resistance). "

https://www.avivametals.com/collecti...ryllium-copper

"The small ratio of beryllium to copper creates a family of high copper alloys with strength as high as alloy steel."

While they could, of course, change the law, the fact that beryllium copper is banned doesn't imply that it would make sense to ban unalloyed copper since the material properties of unalloyed copper are dramatically different from those of beryllium copper.

[briandg]

I'm aware of that, john, but the point was that even an unalloyed copper bullet is absolutely capable of blowing through armor. It's hard enough to resist deforming.

So now that it's a given fact that handgun bullets made of unalloyed copper can indeed penetrate fabric armor, it simply won't surprise me if a change is made in the code. Since the code is only involving handgun rounds, it won't involve the now ubiquitous copper rifle bullets.

Beryllium copper was banned in direct response to the specific bullets like the arcane that were made out of it. Unalloyed copper may not have been used, and escaped the notice of the regulators?

It could go either way. The AP bullet isn't a hot button right now, maybe nobody will care at all. Maybe somebody will realize that they missed a spot over in the corner of the floor and go back to finish the job.

In any case, wouldn't it be ironic if someone started the rumor that the bullet will be banned at the end of 2019, and that stocking up now is the answer, causing a surge in both prices and sales?

The most common use i had ever heard of for BC was non sparking tools, but when I posted that the other day I read up on the alloy. I was amazed by the things I learned.

[stagpanther]

I recently got dragged into the Lehigh debate when I mentioned I load them for my 458 socom--mostly because they are more accurate than any of the other bullets I've tried so far. I called underwood and asked them if they had any testing results to verify what Lehigh has claimed.

I was told that the military has actually tested the EP bullet and verified that the head fluted design does in fact produce a "liquid mass compression/acceleration" effect that produces a wound channel that exceeded that of the hollow point designs they tested--including the 9mm bullet producing an even bigger channel than a 45 acp HP. I was told it was sorta "hush hush" off the record--so take that for whatever you may.

BTW--the Lehigh bullets I've bought do not look like copper monolithics--I'm pretty sure they have a mix of other metal(s) like brass.

[stagpanther]

In any case, wouldn't it be ironic if someone started the rumor that the bullet will be banned at the end of 2019, and that stocking up now is the answer, causing a surge in both prices and sales?

3...2...1...And they're off!

[briandg]

I would like to think that mentioning that on this board won't start the viral screeching.

Cop killer bullets haven't been heard of for a while and the big hoorah was decades ago. There are more important things out there to burn cop cars over. It's possible that the ATF won't want to open the can of worms and there may be nobody out there who has the time to start the fight over these things.

There is so much irony in the history of gun and ammunition regulations. I still find it amazing that I can walk into walmart and get black powder, a true explosive, and make things that go boom, or tannerite, for that matter, but other things are banned.

It was ironic that when the bullets were banned, one of the banned lines was a sharp conical brass design, and at the time, lyman introduced a mold matching the design. Casting it in a very hard alloy would have made the thing quite capable of slipping through kevlar. The needle sharp meplat would slip through and shove aside the weave.

It's ironic that every big explosion caused by the media, like black talon, does nothing at all but make us look like murderers and anarchists.

[HisSoldier]

The concern for me is barrel life, especially in a hotter cartridge like the 10MM. If lead90/tin10% cast bullets give eternal life to barrels what would solid copper do?

[briandg]

Eventually, down at the atomic level, you eventually wear everything out, and over time, atom by atom, everything is ruined. tungsten carbide woodworking tools eventually wear out just cutting wood. The edge is lost on knifes that cut nothing but meat. Even your lead and your brass brush will strip an atom or two off of any steel that they contact. If you scoped a brand new bore and then every 2,000 rounds, you could visibly see that even lead and fire have altered the steel at a microscopic level. Here's the moh's hardness scale for metals.

Lead: 1.5
Tin: 1.5
Zinc: 2.5
Gold: 2.5-3
Silver: 2.5-3
Aluminum: 2.5-3
Copper: 3
Brass: 3
Bronze: 3
Nickel: 4
Platinum: 4-4.5
Steel: 4-4.5
Iron: 4.5
Palladium: 4.75
Rhodium: 6
Titanium: 6
Hardened steel: 7-8
Tungsten: 7.5
Tungsten carbide: 8.5-9

you can see that lead alloys will come in at maybe 2-2.3 while copper will be a three but even soft steel will be a 4. Copper would take an eternity to wear away a piece of steel, but it could eventually wear some off.

The key to it is the word scratch. To deform the metal or even scrape some off. Bullets can't scratch a barrel, they can only wear it a bit. Flame from the +P rounds would do significantly more damage than the solid copper can. When you look at a hard used barrel, unless the thing was rusted or corrode, the damage will be at the chamber where the flame burns it away, a few atoms at a time.

[Buckeye!]

Underwood makes great ammo ... I carry their 10mm 200gr XTP & 180gr Gold dot ....in my Glock 20 & 29
I have my Hipoint 10mm carbine loaded with UW 200gr XTP ...

The UW 140gr penetrator offering is a great option for big Hawgs and Black Bear ..