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Old September 18, 2018, 05:53 AM   #1
Roamin_Wade
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Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge

I was around voting age when the Randy Weaver incident happened in Ruby Ridge Idaho. He lost a son, his wife and I think his dog in the ensuing attempt to effect his arrest for selling a sawed-off shotgun to an undercover agent. Here we are 27 years later and now we can go down to the store and buy a pump shotgun with a 14” barrel. How do you suppose he is taking this?
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Old September 18, 2018, 08:27 AM   #2
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The 14” guns aren’t short enough to be interesting.
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Old September 18, 2018, 08:28 AM   #3
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Oh, but it is not a real shotgun, it is Something Else that just happens to shoot shotgun shells and it is all right because we crossed our fingers when we built it.

I know the makers and the buyers think they are real smart that they have gotten a BATclerk to accept their parsing of the law and regs, but I fear that it will not end well.
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Old September 18, 2018, 09:29 AM   #4
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it is all right because we crossed our fingers when we built it.
The guns in question are being built by MAJOR gun manufacturers. Namely Remington and Mossburg. The boxes are marked specifically for this type of firearm and the BATFE has made a determination that these guns are not NFA regulated and as legal to possess as any other firearm.
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Old September 18, 2018, 09:40 AM   #5
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IMO,a discrepancy in the regs over time is the least of the issues.

A similar situation can be observed over pot.

Folks served hard time over possession of small amounts, and now,in many places,its semi-lawful or considered not worth the time tp prosecute. I,personally,just shrug my shoulders at the point you make regarding the status of the shotgun.

And please,lets NOT turn this into a discussion of pot.

We are talking about Randy Weaver and short barreled niche "shotguns".

Laws can change over time,especially when they are non-elected bureaucrat regs.

IMO,the significance of the Randy Weaver case is around a Federal agency singling out a citizen to pressure and abuse.

Its been a long time since I read the history on this case. My memory may be fuzzy or inaccurate,so do your own research.
The nutshell,near as I remember:

Popular firebrand radio talk show host Alan Berg was assassinated with a Mac-10 in his driveway in Denver. The killing was connected to the Aryan Nation in Idaho.
In the part of Idaho Randy Weaver lived,there was a community around,maybe the Volunteer Fire Dept,etc,that held BBQ's,etc,and other community events.
The Aryan Nation was supposedly the organization for this group,but it also served as the local social organization.Not all folks who participated were neo-nazi.
Supposedly,Randy Weaver was in the non-militant "good old boy" neighbors ,maybe like the home steady prepper types on youtube..I don't know.

Supposedly,he was known as a local jack-of all trades,and BATF agents wanted an informant on the inside. The agents approached Randy about cutting a shotgun barrel "right there" to under legal length. Then they busted him. Next he was pressured to be an informant. He refused.

I don't know what led to his property being staked out with federal snipers..But it happened.
Mr Weaver's son was walking on the property with his dog and .22. The dog alerted on the sniper,so the sniper shot the dog. All the kid knew was he was on his property and someone shot his dog.The kid shot at the sniper and was killed.
Somehow ,later,Mrs Weaver was holding her baby when she was shot and killed by the Federal sniper while she was inside the cabin.Note that she was NOT engaged in shooting at the Feds.This was not a firefight.
I speculate the sniper had very high quality optics . I'll hold off on speculating what the sniper could see when he killed her.

IMO,this case represents a Federal agency ignoring the Constitutional Rights of citizens because "The ends justify the means"

We may well be seeing similar political agency oppression of citizens,with what may have occurred with the IRS,FBI,NSA,DOJ,etc.

Hopefully,time will tell.

In any case,we need to remain vigilant .

FWIW, I really enjoyed Alan Berg,and his murder felt like losing a friend. I have no sympathy for any hate group. I'm glad the Aryan Nation killers were caught and prosecuted.

Over an unpaid $200 tax stamp and a regulation a Mother,a Son,and a dog were,IMO,murdered without justification

Last edited by HiBC; September 18, 2018 at 10:10 AM.
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Old September 18, 2018, 11:27 AM   #6
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What Randy Weaver was accused of is still just as illegal today as it was 3 decades ago.

You still can't legally shorten a shotgun barrel below 18" or the overall gun below 26" without paying the federal tax and complying with the NFA.

It is true that you can now legally buy a shotgun-like device (without a shoulder stock) that has a barrel under 18" but only if it is not made from a receiver that was originally manufactured/sold as a shotgun.
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Old September 18, 2018, 11:28 AM   #7
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Its been a long time since I read the history on this case. My memory may be fuzzy or inaccurate,so do your own research.
Your fuzzy nutshell description leaves out a number of very important details, and gets some others wrong. However, I don't feel this forum is the proper place to discuss the details of that case. PM me if you want to discuss this matter further. The case was settled, monies were paid, Weaver did not go to prison, and the government "admitted no wrong doing".

As to the short barrel guns being sold today, being ATF "approved", ok, fine. What is, and isn't approved by the ATF has changed many times over the years, and could change again further down the road.

Remember, what the ATF giveth, the ATF can taketh away. And they have a history of doing so.

If you do get one of these new 14" barrel guns, be prepared for a hassle (and possibly some expense). Every city, county, state, and Federal cop KNOWS that short barrel shotguns are illegal.

Even if you have the approval letter ON YOU (and I recommend you do have it on you when ever you have that shotgun on you..) that doesn't mean your gun, and likely YOU, will not be seized.

MAYBE the officer will let you explain, maybe even accept your explanation, (and the letter) but they don't HAVE to. It is very possible you could spend a night, or even a weekend in jail, before you get to see a judge.

Do avoid arguing with the officer, and anything that could be construed as "failure to comply" or "resisting arrest". Even when the gun charges get thrown out, if you resisted arrest, that won't be thrown out, and you could easily wind up convicted, losing a great deal more than that shotgun. Maybe, for life...

Don't expect to be able to recoup any legal expenses this causes, either.

And, don't expect to be able to make your own copy of the Remington/Marlin 14" either, even if its a perfect copy, exact in all dimensions, you will be facing jail time over that, UNLESS you get the tax stamp and approval BEFORE making it. The law has quirks, about things like that. ALSO, better check your state laws VERY CAREFULLY. Just because the Fed says its ok, doesn't mean your state does.
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Old September 19, 2018, 07:25 PM   #8
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Wow the things i learn here, they can BUT I can't, I can buy one of there's and I am ok but I can't make one of my own ??
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Old September 19, 2018, 07:36 PM   #9
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they can BUT I can't, I can buy one of there's and I am ok but I can't make one of my own ??
IF you could buy a unassembled receiver from the factory, that had never been made into a shotgun, then you could make the same firearm they are making. The issue here is that the receiver cannot have previously made into a S/G.

Once a longgun...always a longgun.

We run into the same issue with AR’s. A virgin receiver can be made into a pistol, but if it was first made into a rifle...SBR is the only legal way to run a short barrel.
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Old September 19, 2018, 07:40 PM   #10
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Its been a long time since I read the history on this case.
GEEZ, make me feel old; that was current events and I was living out West.............(so was the Claude Dallas incident)
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Old September 19, 2018, 08:10 PM   #11
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IIRC the shotgun Randy Weaver had was very slightly under the minimum length and under "normal" circumstances might have resulted in a small fine or even less. But the FBI was trying to use that as leverage to get Weaver to inform on others believed to be involved other crimes. Weaver didn't play along and everything went terribly out of control. Lots of blame all around.

While these guns are legal now I see issues in the future. Not that I have a problem with them personally, I don't. But I don't want one either.
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Old September 19, 2018, 11:41 PM   #12
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While these guns are legal now I see issues in the future.
To be clear "these guns" are only the specific models named by the ATF. Everything that was an illegal gun before is STILL an illegal gun.

Until, and unless the ATF specifically says it isn't. Anything made without going through the NFA process BEFORE it is made is not legal.

If Granpappy had cut down his Remington to the exact same dimensions as the current approved Remington 14", and never got ATF approval and registered it with them, its NOT legal. If you find it in his stuff, you need immediate qualified legal advice.

The law is bizarre, almost Byzantine in its twists and quirks, and though it makes little sense, it is the law.
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Old September 20, 2018, 02:42 AM   #13
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my thoughts

Like it or not, those stubby shotguns in question are new and legal. Personally, I rate them just a hair above worthless.
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Old September 20, 2018, 07:31 AM   #14
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There is something inherently wrong with our legal system when “all (14” shotguns) are equal (legal) but some are more equal (legal)”.
What am I missing here?
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Old September 20, 2018, 12:41 PM   #15
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It both angers and saddens me that three people died at Ruby Ridge for a stupid shotgun that may or may not have been of legal barrel length because of some anti gun, Socialist Progressive law that was enacted 60 years earlier that has done jack to reduce crime when it concerns short barrel long guns, suppressors, and machine guns.

Destructive Devices are the only common sense gun reform that was in the NFA, IMO.

It's the same with Prohibition, how many died as a result of that? Then Prohibition was repealed and we're supposed to just accept that the decision to make alcohol illegal and the chaos that ensued was just to be forgotten?

The overreach of the Federal authorities has reached a fever pitch and it's still ongoing with the collusion against the sitting US President.

So where am I heading with this? Simple: The federal authorities should have no jurisdiction enforcing federal firearms laws in the states, that should be up to state authorities. I believe Kansas already has a law on the books that says any firearm made, sold, and possessed in Kansas doesn't have to adhere to NFA regs. More states should do the same and if the FBI/ATF tries to arrest a citizen of a state for making a suppressor in his garage that he intends to never leave the state, then that's a violation of state sovereignty and should be opposed with lethal force.

If states cannot enforce federal immigration law, then they can't enforce ANY federal law including firearms, narcotics, prostitution, etc. It's time states start giving the finger to the feds like they did in the 1860s.
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Old September 20, 2018, 01:43 PM   #16
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Here's a little twist-
Any pistol grip shotgun that was manufactured/sold that way-that has never had a shoulder stock installed, can have a barrel under 18"-as long as the OAL is 26" minimum.
Mossberg "Cruiser" models come to mind, as they are considered "firearms"-just like the Shockwave-type guns.
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Old September 20, 2018, 03:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
A similar situation can be observed over pot.

Folks served hard time over possession of small amounts, and now,in many places,its semi-lawful or considered not worth the time tp prosecute. I,personally,just shrug my shoulders at the point you make regarding the status of the shotgun.

And please,lets NOT turn this into a discussion of pot.
This is exactly why a free nation needs to be very careful about what items/activities it determines to be illegal and punish with jail time. I'm neither condoning or condemning pot or sawed off shotguns here. Just making a point about the law.
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Old September 20, 2018, 03:35 PM   #18
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Mossberg "Cruiser" models come to mind, as they are considered "firearms"-just like the Shockwave-type guns.
Not quite. The “cruiser” guns are sold as “Shotguns” and have 18.5” barrels and a pistol grip. If you put a 14” barrel on them, they do not meet the 26” overall length and are subject to the NFA.

The only way the “Shockwave” guns are legal is with the “birdshead” grip. That puts em OVER 26” overall.
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Old September 20, 2018, 03:44 PM   #19
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Not quite. The “cruiser” guns are sold as “Shotguns” and have 18.5” barrels and a pistol grip
Mine wasn't, over 30 years ago; it was simply listed as "other"

Quote:
Here's a little twist-
Any pistol grip shotgun that was manufactured/sold that way-that has never had a shoulder stock installed, can have a barrel under 18"-as long as the OAL is 26" minimum.
Mossberg "Cruiser" models come to mind, as they are considered "firearms"-just like the Shockwave-type guns.
The difference between the old cruiser and the new shockwave all comes down to the grip. The birdshead allows it to have a shorter barrel as the OAL is longer than the old vertical pistol grip
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Old September 20, 2018, 05:34 PM   #20
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Making those 14" pistol gripped shotguns legal is a mistake. While some idiots
think we have scored a win, I don't think that way. Since these guns have very
little useful purpose other than shooting people, I see them becoming very popular in the hood. Another quality weapon like the Tech-9 and Hi-Points.
Every time this happens it gives anti gunners more ammo. This ruling was made
under Obama. I think it was on purpose, from the people that brought you Fast
and Furious.
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Old September 20, 2018, 06:12 PM   #21
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While some idiots think we have scored a win, I don't think that way. Since these guns have very little useful purpose other than shooting people,
Well, im not sure I qualify with your definition with only a USMC, LE/SWAT, Govt contractor and 25 years as a weapons and tactics instructor background.

But, i own one of the Mossy shockwaves. Its in the house as a HD gun. By definition its only “useful purpose” is shooting people. Thats what HD/SD guns are for.

I dont consider Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch an “Idiot” and he likes the shockwaves too.

Hmmm...
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Old September 20, 2018, 06:14 PM   #22
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As long as a Cruiser has never had a shoulder stock, the barrel can be under 18"-as long as OAL remains 26"+.
They were always classified as "firearms," regardless how a dealer sold them.
My 20 Ga Cruiser would be 26" with a 16" barrel and the stock grip.
The long birdshead grips simply lengthen the rear of the gun-hence the front can be shorter.
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Old September 20, 2018, 10:46 PM   #23
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This thread needs to stay firearm related (on topic) to remain open.
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Old September 21, 2018, 11:19 AM   #24
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There is something inherently wrong with our legal system when “all (14” shotguns) are equal (legal) but some are more equal (legal)”.
What am I missing here?
What you are missing here is the letter of the law. ALL our gun control laws are arbitrary in their requirements, but they ARE the law.

Put a folding stock on an SKS carbine imported before a certain date, all good and legal. Put that same stock on an identical rifle imported a day later, its a crime. (just one of many examples).


And while most of what happened at Ruby Ridge is not germane to the discussion, there are a couple points that need to be remembered. The barrels of the guns Weaver cut off were NOT below legal Federal minimum length. And, the government never claimed they were.

Weaver cut the guns for a "friend" who turned out to be a govt informant. When the guns were delivered to the govt agents, by their informant, they were found to be below the Fed min overall length. (by 1/4"!!). And, therefore, illegal Everything that happened as a result of that is outside our scope here. My point is that the Weaver case was not over BARRELS that were too short, it was over too short an over all length. A small point, but I think a significant one.
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Old September 21, 2018, 11:27 AM   #25
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the Weaver case was not over BARRELS that were too short, it was over too short an over all length
Which is why, as posted above, the “Shockwave” guns are sold with that birdhead grip. That grip puts the OAL over the 26” min. A standard pistol grip makes the gun too short and would be categorized as a AOW, with a $200 tax to manufacture, a form 4 to transfer and all the waiting for your stamp to come back.

WITH the birdshead grip, cash and carry just like any handgun.
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