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Old September 28, 2018, 03:55 PM   #76
1911Tuner
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Invited from afar, so here goes.


Quote:
Usage of the slide STOP as a slide RELEASE in an M1911 pistol will cause premature slide stop wear..
With an empty magazine in the gun, pull the slide full rearward. (5-inch gun)

Look at the slide stop notch in relation to the stop lug...the part that engages the notch.

When the magazine is empty, the follower pushes up on the stop. As the slide runs forward, it pops up into the notch. The leading edge of the notch slams into the rear face of the stop lug under near maximum spring tension driving a 14 ounce slide.

If it'll stand that over and over, it's highly unlikely that a little friction will do it much harm.

Cheers.
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Old September 28, 2018, 04:32 PM   #77
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Okay, so just curious, if one of your 1911s begins to send the slide forward when inserting a mag, is the fix likely installing a new slide stop release? Or could it be a plethora of issues and just be sent back to the manufacturer?
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Old September 28, 2018, 06:59 PM   #78
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I would say do what is comfortable for you, unless you are planning to be in a high-stress situation in the future.

I was taught to use the slide release before going to work for Uncle Sam; however, it was pointed out by an instructor in VA, the sling-shot method was more advisable.

His reasoning was if under high-stress, after the last round the slide locks back, you hit the mag release, then slam in a new mag, you might when under stress possibly hit the slide release before the full mag is inserted. Plus, the slide is always in the same position; whereas, a slide release might be slightly different so if need to switch weapons, it makes the weapon faster to make ready.

Therefore, since that, at the time made sense, I learned to always sling-shot. Right thumb releases the spent mag, right hand slams the fresh (full) mag into the well and them proceeds to take hold of the slide and do the sling-shot.

It became so automatic I don't even think about it.

But always issued DA/SA no 1911s but don't believe that would be a factor.
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Old September 28, 2018, 09:49 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerrich99
Okay, so just curious, if one of your 1911s begins to send the slide forward when inserting a mag, is the fix likely installing a new slide stop release? Or could it be a plethora of issues and just be sent back to the manufacturer?
It's a several step diagnosis.

First question: Does it always do that, or only if the empty mag you dropped was a certain mag (or one of a few certain mags)? It may be that the magazines have weak springs and aren't fully engaging the slide stop. Start by trying to isolate whether it only happens after certain mags get shot to slide lock, then check to see if those mags are fully engaging the slide stop.
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Old September 29, 2018, 08:40 AM   #80
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Hand over slingshot method with thumb pointing back at me.

Gross motor movement.

Regards,
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Old September 29, 2018, 11:06 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerrich99
Okay, so just curious, if one of your 1911s begins to send the slide forward when inserting a mag, is the fix likely installing a new slide stop release? Or could it be a plethora of issues and just be sent back to the manufacturer?
Quote:
It's a several step diagnosis.
This is the best answer. It could be a number of things, it could be certain things working in combination.

OR, as one poster found out, and bravely admitted, it could simply be YOU, tripping the slide stop without realizing you are doing it.
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Old September 29, 2018, 05:24 PM   #82
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The reason I asked was wear on the slide stop . Think of the slide being held back after last round , the forward pressure on the slide stop . By releasing the stop by lowering the stop wouldn't that cause the stop to wear much faster then if you used the slingshot method . I would think so and wouldn't that possibly cause the slide to close when inserting a full magazine if worn.
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Old September 29, 2018, 08:43 PM   #83
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Quote:
When the magazine is empty, the follower pushes up on the stop. As the slide runs forward, it pops up into the notch. The leading edge of the notch slams into the rear face of the stop lug under near maximum spring tension driving a 14 ounce slide.

If it'll stand that over and over, it's highly unlikely that a little friction will do it much harm.

this is one of the best explanations I've seen, and strange it took so long for someone to point it out.

Quote:
By releasing the stop by lowering the stop wouldn't that cause the stop to wear much faster then if you used the slingshot method . I would think so and wouldn't that possibly cause the slide to close when inserting a full magazine if worn.
I suppose that depends on your definition of "much faster". Well over a century of use without the slide or the stop becoming known as parts that wear rapidly and need frequent replacement tells us that it is simply not a matter of serious concern. Think about it. Two pieces of steel, with a nearly vertical engagement, sliding against each other for very short distance. Admittedly under "tremendous" pressure from the spring, it will wear, right? yes, but not much, and not soon, if the parts are correctly made and heat treated.

Now if one or both isn't properly made (like the one Mike ran into that was "dead soft) THEN you're going to have issues.

And yes, worn parts can result in the slide closing when you slam it in the butt (slap home a loaded mag), but that's because the parts are worn.

Browning isn't around to ask, any more, but if the gun had been intentionally meant to do that, wouldn't you think that it would be a design feature, and something mentioned in the ads, instruction manuals, and training? All of which were developed back when Browning was still around.

what any gun does when/if parts wear to the point of borderline serviceability is NOT what one uses for a standard of correct operation.


Every M16 and AR I've ever seen, whether well worn or brand spanking new, (and that is thousands, literally) will jar the bolt off its lock (closing it) when you give the butt a bump (without an empty magazine in place). It's neither a flaw, nor a feature, its just the way things work when you "hit it just right".

If you can get a 1911 pattern gun (with everything in spec) to close itself when you load it, (without you working the side stop) then you can get it to do that, and I'd consider you an exceptional individual, with what is probably a worn gun. That doesn't mean that's what it was designed to do.
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Old September 30, 2018, 09:17 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerrich99
Okay, so just curious, if one of your 1911s begins to send the slide forward when inserting a mag, is the fix likely installing a new slide stop release? Or could it be a plethora of issues and just be sent back to the manufacturer?
The cause is a combination of things. I've found that ramming 10 round mags will release the slide, but eight round mags generally won't.

This is a function of the momentum of the slide stop: Lightening the slide stop will help prevent it tripping as a mag is inserted.

Likewise, you may drill a small divot for the plunger to engage when the slide stop is up and locked.

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Old September 30, 2018, 11:05 AM   #85
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Quote:
Lightening the slide stop will help prevent it tripping as a mag is inserted.
So will inserting the magazine "correctly".

And by that I mean firmly and rapidly, so it securely locks in, but not "ramming" it in so hard that the shock to the pistol jars the slide stop free, overcoming both its natural inertia and the spring pressure it is under.

In a way, tis comparable to "dumping the clutch". Though in a car, the clutch will wear out (to the point of requiring replacement) much, much sooner than the pistol will, the idea is the same. It is a deliberate overstress of the mechanism, which designers know people will do, and they build so that the machine will survive it, for a time, but its not supposed to be the normal method of operation.

Designers, however brilliant, are very seldom the guys on the sharp end (though there have been exceptions), and therefore, some things guys do with their equipment come as a surprise to them.

The old saying "give a (insert branch of service here) an anvil and a rock, and drop them naked in the desert and within 3 days, they will have broken the anvil, and lost the rock" isn't without a grain of truth.

There are 3 main phases to the design and use of field equipment, whether a rifle, tank, backpack or a fighter jet. The initial design work, where the item is conceived, and where all foreseeable problems are taken into account.

Then there is the testing phase, where testers try everything they can think of, and come up with things the designers never thought of that affect the items performance. Newly discovered problems (hopefully) get fixed, and then it goes to the troops.

And it is in troop use that other, "new" (previously unthought of) problems arise, and new fixes are created, over and over until, finally, no other problems show up.

Sometimes (most of the time) the problems are relatively minor, but sometimes a small thing that the designers overlooked can have large consequences.

The M1 Abrams tank had a situation like that. Well designed, and rigorously tested under all conceivable conditions. Bugs were found, and fixed. Blessed, and issued to troops. Then after the troops played with them a bit, NEW problems were "discovered", specifically a much shorter than expected transmission life. They were failing at a much higher rate than expected or desired, and they are expensive. For a while designers were baffled, their transmission was good, the best they could make, and they couldn't understand why they were breaking too soon. All QC on parts and assembly were checked and rechecked, and there was simply no reason for it happening!

Until some bright fellow actually went out and spent time with the troops to see HOW it was being used. Turned out that the modern "shoot and scoot" tactics (the way to maximize survivability in combat) was the culprit. Drivers were slamming the tank into reverse, (and punching the gas) the instant the gun fired, no matter if the tank was sitting still, or moving forward at 30+ mph. The designers simply never expected that any one would actually do that, and the testers hadn't either. The additional, unexpected stress was causing premature failures.

Interior parts were redesigned, to take the additional stresses, and the problem was fixed. the point here is that troops in the field will do things the designers never thought of. Such as people slamming in the magazine as hard as they can, every single time. (train like you will fight).

Considering the 1911 design is well over a century old, (and the slide release is essentially unchanged) I'd say Browning did a damn fine job to begin with.
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Old October 1, 2018, 08:55 AM   #86
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Quote:
is it best to slingshot the slide
Bingo you win the door prize. Sling shot.
We were instructed to sling shot the slide in a self defense or tactical situation being you can stay focused on your target in a mag change. In the same situation if you elect to go the slide stop way and somehow miss the release you will instinctively look down to see and manipulate the slide stop/release, thus taking your eyes off the threat/target.
There is/was (may have been removed) a video of a police officer being shot and killed. The video goes from the initial stop to him being in a gun battle with the shooter/killer. The officer fumbled his mag change and in doing so had taken his eyes of the shooter and when he completed his reload and looked up the shooter was over him with a rifle and proceeded to take the officers life.
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Old October 1, 2018, 09:58 AM   #87
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There is a tendency to overthink this stuff.

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Old October 1, 2018, 10:02 PM   #88
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Quote:
There is a tendency to overthink this stuff.
oh, absolutely, we do!

We can, do, and will argue the merits of both methods, both have advantages and disadvantages depending on the gun used and the exact situation.

Yes, miss the slide stop, and odds are very high you will look to see what's wrong. That could be fatal. Look to see why/how your pistol jammed, same thing. At the wrong moment, very bad news.

Other side of the coin, need that other hand for something vital right after inserting a fresh mag, you can't slingshot the slide with one hand.

Some gun designs don't give you the option. Others make one option easier than the other. I don't care which you use, what I do care about is people claiming that using the slide stop on a 1911 pattern gun to release the slide causes damage to the gun. Until and unless someone presents credible evidence to counter over 100 years of operational experience, I'll give that claim very little weight.
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Old October 1, 2018, 10:31 PM   #89
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Quote:
Other side of the coin, need that other hand for something vital right after inserting a fresh mag, you can't slingshot the slide with one hand.
Uhhh...yes, you can. Just hook the rear sight on a belt or holster, push and release.
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Old October 1, 2018, 11:05 PM   #90
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Look, as was said earlier, learn the gun. Learn how to operate it in a number of situations including one handed. There is a place for both methods, both are useful. Neither will damage the gun in any appreciable way.

Sometimes folks don't think enough...

Quote:
Uhhh...yes, you can. Just hook the rear sight on a belt or holster, push and release.
This is fine for racking the slide one handed if needed. I can see that, if you have the time, you can slingshot the slide this way as well. It looks to me that this falls into the category of wearing both a belt and suspenders thinking but what do I know?

We can solve this issue easily...

Someone go out and buy two 1911s same make and model. Fire 10,000 rounds of identical ammo through them each. When you are done in a week or two, no rush take your time, come and tell us which produced more wear on the gun. Better yet get 4 guns so we have a bigger sample size, for statistical purposes.

Excuse me for not waiting but I will surely come back to see what the results are. We can debate that as well.

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Old October 12, 2018, 10:45 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
The advantage to teaching the slingshot method (sometimes called the Israeli method) is that it works for nearly all semi auto pistols. SO one training regimen suffices for everything, or just about.
You're right... NEARLY ALL semi auto pistols.

I always considered the (traditional) "slingshot method" to involve grabbing the slide at the rear just like you would grab the pouch of a slingshot, and pulling the slide back just like you pulled back the pouch of a slingshot. Most folks doing that tend to pull the gun down and position it so that the offhand can grab the rear of the slide. That's a lot of gun and hand and arm movement when using that method.

The U.S. military quit teaching the slingshot method some years ago, after a lot of failures to go into battery under combat conditions in Afghanistan and Iraq when using the M9. The problem was probably made worse or common because so many of the troops were working in harsh environments (cold, or rough and rocky) and wore gloves for warmth or protection from the environment.

Some consider "the hand-over method" a variant of the slingshot -- I consider it a different approach. With hand-over method, you place the offhand on the top of the rear of the slide and push it forcefully to the rear. That approach doesn't always work with the M9 (or the similar Beretta 92s or Taurus semi-autos ) because if you don't position the hand just right on the rear of the slide you can unintentionally decock the weapon (by accidentally moving the decocker/safety lever on the side of the slide).

I think "The Israeli method" was apparently first developed by Israeli Mossad agents (or whatever they were called, back then) working undercover, often in native garb, who carried their weapons with an empty chamber. It seems to be a variation of "The hand-over method." These Israelis apparently felt that a gun with an empty chamber, if grabbed by an opponent, could not as quickly be used against the agent. The agents, on the other hand, had all practiced getting the gun into action and nearly all of them were very proficient in hand-to-hand combat. They felt that if the gun was grabbed, they could generally regain control of a grabbed weapon before it could be made ready by the grabber, and could then use it the gun or other methods, if appropriate.

I use the offhand thumb or several fingers of that hand to press the slide stop as you move the hand to the support position. With a little practice it can be done much more quickly than the traditional "slingshot method"; the hand-over method might be a bit faster, still -- as both of these methods require less gun movement than the traditional "slingshot method" and let you stay on or get back on target more quickly.

Back when I had a couple of Kahrs, the owner's manual warned against the traditional slingshot method to chamber the first round, and iinstructed the user to press the slide stop/release to insure a clean, effective release.

A surprising number of owners manual suggest moving the slide to the rear by pulling the slide to the rear OR using the slide stop (and in one or two cases, the slide release) to release the slide.

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; October 12, 2018 at 10:51 PM.
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Old October 13, 2018, 07:15 AM   #92
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I've played with several slide release methods. I need to perform both, depending on the specific pistol. My SA 1911 in 9mm has a respectively weak mainspring so the rapid "mag load/thumb slide release" works smooth and consistent for me. On my FNX45T the slide release is very thin and flush and I can't do the above mentioned method. I can however slam a full mag home brisk and it's enough energy to allow the slide to fly into battery. My Desert Eagle has a very solid locking slide lever, and a VERY stiff main spring. Takes me both thumbs to get the slide release to move, so this I just use the slingshot method. My Kimber 10mm is the same as my DE very tough to get the slide to release by thumb pressure. So for the efficient "tatical" mag changes my SA 9mm 1911 get my vote.
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Old October 13, 2018, 08:34 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill
Some consider "the hand-over method" a variant of the slingshot -- I consider it a different approach. With hand-over method, you place the offhand on the top of the rear of the slide and push it forcefully to the rear. That approach doesn't always work with the M9 (or the similar Beretta 92s or Taurus semi-autos ) because if you don't position the hand just right on the rear of the slide you can unintentionally decock the weapon (by accidentally moving the decocker/safety lever on the side of the slide).
The Taurus Model 92 doesn't have the safety mounted on the slide. Taurus moved it down onto the receiver. (("Where G-d intended it to be." )

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Old October 13, 2018, 11:17 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila Blanca
The Taurus Model 92 doesn't have the safety mounted on the slide. Taurus moved it down onto the receiver. (("Where G-d intended it to be." )
After your comment above, I did some more reading and found that the original PT92 was an exact copy of the Beretta 92, but my error was assuming that the Beretta design used by Taurus had the slide-mounted safety/decocker.
The original Beretta 92 had a frame-mounted safety and the Taurus copy kept that feature in the guns it produced.

It was a year or two later that Beretta introduced the slide-mounted decocker/safety to help with sales to police agencies in the U.S. It was apparently a smart move, as I can remember when almost every cop you'd see had a Beretta (if they weren't still carrying a revolver).

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; October 13, 2018 at 08:23 PM.
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Old October 13, 2018, 04:35 PM   #95
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And I didn't know that the Beretta ever had the safety/decocker anywhere other than the slide.

So we both learned something today. Thanks -- the day is not a total loss.
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Old October 15, 2018, 02:54 AM   #96
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I can’t belive there are four pages of response on using a slide stop/ release incorporated into the 1911 design. Further I cannot believe I took the time to read most (not the long winded ones) of those responses with an objective mind. Excuse me while I load my 1911 by releasing the stop (ha! Used both terms) and get on with life.
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Old October 15, 2018, 05:42 AM   #97
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Quote:
I can’t belive there are four pages of response on using a slide stop/ release incorporated into the 1911 design. Further I cannot believe I took the time to read most (not the long winded ones) of those responses with an objective mind. Excuse me while I load my 1911 by releasing the stop (ha! Used both terms) and get on with life.
You may be prematurely wearing out your slide stop lever--maybe as soon as 50,000 rounds!
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Old October 15, 2018, 06:44 AM   #98
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"And I didn't know that the Beretta ever had the safety/decocker anywhere other than the slide."

I had one for a number of years. It was part of an Italian-made run for South Africa, apparently.

Rough on the outside, but still very solid mechanically.

It had the frame mounted safety/decocker and could be carried cocked and locked if so desired.

I finally ended up getting rid of it when I got my P7 and realized I had 5 or 6 9mms.
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