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Old August 22, 2018, 09:17 PM   #1
Dano4734
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What is meant by gas checked hardcast

And I don’t understand why some hardcast bullets have three grease rings and others only one for a 45-70. Can you explain
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Old August 22, 2018, 09:36 PM   #2
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A gas check is a cup on the bottom of a bullet that is more durable than the lead itself.

Like these.

https://shop.brownells.com/reloading...iABEgJ0YfD_BwE


Nothing at all to do with lube grooves/grease rings.


“Hard cast” is like saying “super” or “new and improved” without a hardness number on some kind of a relative scale, it just doesn’t mean anything. “Hard” is a qualitative word (1+1=..., is hard for some). If you want to quantify hardness of lead the Brinell scale is the most common.

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Old August 22, 2018, 11:41 PM   #3
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The gas check is a copper cup added to the bottom of the bullet.

Like these bullets:

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.p...roducts_id=187

Illustrated here:

http://10mm-firearms.com/general-dis...n/gas-checked/
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Old August 22, 2018, 11:56 PM   #4
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A gas check is a piece of metal crimped to the bottom of the bullet. Gas checks are usually copper or aluminum. The gas checks keep the high Temps of the Burning powder away from the lead bullet base. If a bullet does not seal entirely against the bore the gases will escape up the side of the bullet and melt the lead,thus leading the barrel. The gas check helps seal the gases to keep them behind the bullet.
Hardcast is mostly a generic term. There is no definite definition but refers to lead that is alloyed with other metals to make it harder. Those are usually tin and others. In some situations hard lead is not needed for a cast bullet at target velocities. Swagged bullets are soft lead. Hard lead allows the bullet to not strip the rifling. This means there is no slippage between bullet and barrel rifling. When bullets are accelerated very fast the bullet slides down the barrel and does not rotate with a 1 to 1 relationship with the rifling.
There can be one to multiple lube grooves on lubed bullets. The position,width,and depth of lube grooves determine the center of gravity of a bullet. Where the cg is determines the bullets stability. A bullet in a long rifle bullet requires more lube to seal and lube the bore since the bullet is in the barrel for a longer time than a short pistol barrel.
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Old August 23, 2018, 04:11 AM   #5
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As a very general rule of thumb, if shooting lead faster than 1,000 fps you'll want the "hard cast" with the gas check. As in your 45-70.

For things like the 45 ACP, 38 Special as long as your not hotrodding them they are not needed.
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Old August 23, 2018, 10:17 AM   #6
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Thank you very much
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Old August 23, 2018, 10:30 AM   #7
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"Hard Cast" is a fairly new term, started a few years ago by (IMO) commercial bullet casters. If it has a meaning it would mean that it is a cast bullet. vs. a swaged bullet. Many new lead bullet shooters think "harder is better" so the commercial casters give them what they want. Some produce bullets 18-20 BHN, but with research you can find more sensible bullets/alloys of approx. 12-15 BHN...
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Old August 23, 2018, 12:05 PM   #8
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"Hard Cast" is a fairly new term and is mostly irrelevant. If the thing is driven too fast it's still going to cause leading.
The gas check literally prevents the hot gases getting past the bullet by melting said bullet. This kind of stuff is covered in the reference chapters of your manual. S'why you need to read the whole thing.
"...have three grease rings..." Mostly about the speeds a particular cartridge operates at. As mentioned, it has nothing to do with gas checks.
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Old August 24, 2018, 07:01 AM   #9
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One other thing about the gas check - it tends to scrape away barrel leading reducing a lead buildup.

I recommend you stick with copper and avoid aluminum. Aluminum oxide is the abrasive used on sandpaper and can tend to increase wear on your barrel over the long haul.

Hardcast might refer to either bullet quenching out of the mold or using a lead alloy with added tin or antimony bringing up the projectile's hardness which is also done to reduce leading of the barrel.
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Old August 24, 2018, 12:20 PM   #10
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My alloys are no harder than 16 BHN. I do not believe in the "hardcast" hype.

I also use ALUMINUM and copper gas checks where needed.

Both work and there is no aluminum oxide eating away my barrels.

Gas eats barrels. Aluminum gas checks do not.

If you have lead fouling in the barrel, the gas check will not remove it.
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Old August 24, 2018, 10:07 PM   #11
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I saw some bullets online that said they are powder coated how does that work i never saw one is it to reduce leading
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Old August 24, 2018, 10:08 PM   #12
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How would a thin power coat be any better
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Old August 24, 2018, 10:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
As a very general rule of thumb, if shooting lead faster than 1,000 fps you'll want the "hard cast" with the gas check. As in your 45-70.
Much depends on the composition of the bullet alloy, and the powder used. I shoot "hard" cast slugs at 11-1300fps without gas checks, and without issues.

Quote:
"Hard Cast" is a fairly new term, started a few years ago by (IMO) commercial bullet casters.
Hard cast is hardly a new term, its been in use since casters started casting alloys instead of just pure lead bullets. Widespread use of the term is, however, more recent, just as commercial bullet casters are a fairly recent development.
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Old August 24, 2018, 11:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano4734 View Post
I saw some bullets online that said they are powder coated how does that work i never saw one is it to reduce leading
The powder coat acts as a lubricant in place of the usual waxy lube in the groove. It coats the bullet to prevent the lead from making direct contact with the bore.

You might find this article of interest: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...r-handloaders/
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Old August 24, 2018, 11:12 PM   #15
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Thank you
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Old August 26, 2018, 04:38 PM   #16
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The coated bullets does NOT fowl the rifling in your gun. It will save you money because the copper gas checks cost and you will need the equipment to put them on. I have put gas checks on 44mag and some long guns the coated bullets is the way to go good luck
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Old August 26, 2018, 06:12 PM   #17
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Sounds good I had to really scrub my barrel as I had some light leading occurring from firing many rounds of non gas checked. Hmm maybe the powder coating is a better option
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Old August 26, 2018, 06:44 PM   #18
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Get some copper Chore Boy and wrap it around either a brush or a bore mop. I use both.

An excellent lead remover when leading is a problem.

Be careful when buying because there is a lot of stuff that is copper coated steel and you don't wanna use that stuff in a good barrel.
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Old August 26, 2018, 07:14 PM   #19
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Thank you will do
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Old August 27, 2018, 12:15 AM   #20
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cleaning lead from a barrel: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...om-your-barrel
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Old August 27, 2018, 02:07 AM   #21
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Gas checks others have covered well here, but hardcast is lead that's not soft. This is my opinion, there's no set hardness that makes something hardcast or not hardcast, but a bullet is hardcast to me if it's very difficult to put an indent into it with my thumbnail. If I can indent the bullet easily with my thumbnail, it's soft and not hard.

Harder cast bullets can be shot at higher veolocities and not lead the barrel, the gas check keeps hot gasses from touching the lead and causing it to lead the bore and because the gas check is brass/copper, it's going to take the heat and friction, without causing pressure issues being too hard to push down the bore itself.

I don't shoot hardcast/gas checked stuff often, but am planning to with a 125 grain .327 bullet for my Henry that I'm projecting will hit 2000 fps.
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Old August 27, 2018, 09:09 AM   #22
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Hard cast is just hard relative to the old black powder bullets that were either pure lead or a low antimony or tin alloy. As others have mentioned, there is no exact hardness number above which it is defined, but I would say you don't usually see bullets of BHN 11 or lower called hard cast, nor bullets of BHN 16 and up not called hard cast. How in between hardnesses are labeled probably varies with the source.

I have never seen evidence of bullet metal melting. I see gas cutting that results in impact splatter plating the bore and dusting the ground in front of the firing point. Heat takes time to travel into a surface, and since the bullet metal is much more highly heat conductive than the gasses made by the powder, a temperature gradient in the gas will exist at the bullet surface so the bullet never sees the full temperature of the gas before it has left the muzzle.
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Old August 28, 2018, 12:17 AM   #23
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Uncle that is very informative. What I scubed out was a powering and light plating it makes sense now thank you
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Old August 28, 2018, 02:03 PM   #24
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Coated lead bullets are pretty new

The gas check was a way to deal with the isuse Uncleinick mentioned (that is new to me as well but gas check stopped lead issues, did not know what the mechanism is, good info but as often is true, if you avoid it consistently that is what counts!

I have 9mm lead bullets that have 3 grease groves.

This is an interesting read. I do have some of their bullets and no issues in 9mm. The grease does smoke some, I think coated are probably better but no experience.

http://www.pennbullets.com/unique.html

http://www.pennbullets.com/Reloading...oadingTips.htm

Keep in mind, hard is just one aspect of a metal, there are all sorts of added elements as well ash how the metal is processed that end in various characteristics.
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Old August 29, 2018, 07:35 AM   #25
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Quote:
Keep in mind, hard is just one aspect of a metal, there are all sorts of added elements as well ash how the metal is processed that end in various characteristics.
Nebulus statement. Arsenic allows for the heat treatment (hardening) of lead alloys. There are several other metals that can be added, Copper for instance, but your statement seems more apropos to steels (where "toughness" and abrasion resistance, etc.) than lead alloys. Most readers here are only interested in the characteristics of lead alloys.
https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.p...let-alloys.59/
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