The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 26, 2018, 03:27 PM   #51
WV_gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 938
I feel old for saying this but I remember when $100 was the going rate.
WV_gunner is offline  
Old July 26, 2018, 03:51 PM   #52
the possum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2004
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 555
Quote:
I feel old for saying this but I remember when $100 was the going rate.
I paid $69 for one. Got my nice Finnish example for $75. It will hold 2" groups @ 100 yards with surplus ammo.

And the real sad part is that all that surplus ammo dried up after Russia went nuts in Crimea, and got sanctioned. It could be found anywhere for 20 cents per shot right up until that time. I saw the writing on the wall & got stocked up back then; I think the window of opportunity has passed.
the possum is offline  
Old July 26, 2018, 07:25 PM   #53
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
I paid $1.50 (it might have been $10, I think my dad actually bought ti)

Beat up probably from the Spanish Civil war, still had a good bore though.

1960 or so.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old July 27, 2018, 12:09 PM   #54
emcon5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 1999
Location: High Desert NV
Posts: 2,850
Quote:
And the real sad part is that all that surplus ammo dried up after Russia went nuts in Crimea, and got sanctioned. It could be found anywhere for 20 cents per shot right up until that time. I saw the writing on the wall & got stocked up back then; I think the window of opportunity has passed.
I think there is more to it than that, and it had to do with timing. The last batch of imports, the spam cans were mostly dated 1988. Not going to be much newer than that in Warsaw Pact nations. Russia was still producing ammo, but I expect in lower quantities after the end of the Cold War.
emcon5 is offline  
Old July 27, 2018, 06:16 PM   #55
AK Man
Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2008
Posts: 29
I've bought Mosin Nagant rifles from $50 for a hand picked Polish M44 to $499 for an original 91/30 PU sniper.

The reason the price is going up they are not importing them anymore. They are great guns but you have to be careful to choose the right one. Remember that most of the surplus ammo that has been shot through these guns is corrosive. If these guns were not cleaned properly they may have damage. A lot of them have worn bores some are worn bad enough to need to be back bored to get them to shoot better. If you can clean the bore & use a bore light to view the condition of the bore look for strong rifling all the way to the muzzle. The rifling in the muzzle usually shows wear first.
__________________
NRA Life Member
AK Man is offline  
Old July 28, 2018, 12:19 PM   #56
WV_gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 938
2011 is when I remember the $100 Mosin, unless it was something special. SKS was $300 for regular ones. I was going to buy one of each but ended up spending $425 on a AKM. Just to hear older people in my family say they remember when those were $100 for a good one.
WV_gunner is offline  
Old July 30, 2018, 03:01 PM   #57
Justice06RR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2010
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,360
Please guys, its always painful for me to hear you all saying that it was less than $100 a few years ago.

Times has changed and the political climate has a big effect on pricing as well. AK47's used to be $300 rifles, now they are $600+ for the cheaper models and $1000 for the good ones.

The cheapest Mosin 91/30 I bought about 6yrs ago was $140 and that was mismatching and not in the best condition. I sold it for $175 in a few months.

20yrs ago gas was 88cents/gallon; not its hovering around $3/gal. Its just not the same. INFLATION and Supply & Demand.

I sold an M44 in very good condition for $360 not too long ago. Locally they are almost impossible to find ( I checked ). I could've probably asked for $400 and it would still sell since no one else in my area was selling it locally.
Justice06RR is offline  
Old July 30, 2018, 04:23 PM   #58
agtman
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,374
Quote:
Please guys, its always painful for me to hear you all saying that it was less than $100 a few years ago.
Times has changed and the political climate has a big effect on pricing as well. AK47's used to be $300 rifles, now they are $600+ for the cheaper models and $1000 for the good ones.
The cheapest Mosin 91/30 I bought about 6yrs ago was $140 and that was mismatching and not in the best condition. I sold it for $175 in a few months.
20yrs ago gas was 88cents/gallon; not its hovering around $3/gal. Its just not the same. INFLATION and Supply & Demand.
I sold an M44 in very good condition for $360 not too long ago. Locally they are almost impossible to find ( I checked ). I could've probably asked for $400 and it would still sell since no one else in my area was selling it locally.
Price-conscious shoppers agree, if you snooze you lose. Prices over time generally tend to go up, whether it's something in the 'junker' category or the 'quality' category

Same with rifles.

Speaking of quality, I paid the CMP $950 last week for a certified 'Service Grade' Winchester M1 Garand. November '43 receiver; 6/54 barrel (with low TE/ME numbers); and a mix of in-spec USGI parts.

Put 70+ rds of HXP 30-06 ammo thru it today, and what a great shooter this one is!

Yep, you get what you pay for.

Last edited by agtman; July 31, 2018 at 06:29 AM.
agtman is offline  
Old July 30, 2018, 09:42 PM   #59
the possum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2004
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 555
Yeah, according to the inflation calculator, that $75 would be like $112 today. But I recognized that Finnish one was not commie junk. It has really nice machining and would cost a lot more to make today.

One of these days I aughtta try wringing it out with good ammo. If it shoots 2 MOA with cheap surplus, a tuned handload would probably turn it into a real tack driver.
the possum is offline  
Old August 2, 2018, 03:52 PM   #60
JJ45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2015
Posts: 908
The "Finnish one" or actually all the Finn M27, M28/30, M39s, etc, are made on Russian MN receivers, bolts, and floor plates. Usually the Hex receiver versions.

There are also rifles that were on hand in Finland when it was part of the Russian Empire or the thousands captured by the Finns during the Winter War, including both M91s and M91/30s These weapons, as above, were re-stocked (the "pot bellied" stock on captures comes to mind} and re-barreled and in the case of the M27 through 39 models were equipped with different sights to suit the Finns. Finn sniper rifles were still on hex MN receivers well into the 90s,

You can find minor differences as usual....it was even rumored that the bore diameters on these Finn MNs were altered somehow to confuse the Russians....I used to know how but it's been a while, can't recall exactly.

Last edited by JJ45; August 2, 2018 at 04:00 PM.
JJ45 is offline  
Old November 3, 2018, 08:16 AM   #61
Guggmeister
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2013
Posts: 117
Mosin Nagant

28-30 had a tighter barrel.
Basically .308.
.311 is the ”standard.”


Chamber was modifier for captured ammo and the D166 bullet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Guggmeister is offline  
Old November 4, 2018, 08:37 AM   #62
Jack O'Conner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2005
Location: Manatee County, Florida
Posts: 1,974


This photo was sent to me by a friend in Nebraska. Mosin carbine's make nice deer rifles!

Jack
__________________
Fire up the grill! Deer hunting IS NOT catch and release.
Jack O'Conner is offline  
Old November 21, 2019, 08:45 AM   #63
ernie8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 217
After running unmodified military rifle matches at my range every week for over 18 years with about 20 shooters a match , I can say a Russian Mosin is not in the top half of the worlds military rifles for accuracy . They were also slow in any speed matches . That gave me a field of about 20,000 examples to compare . Target shot at 75 yards do not prove much for several reasons . After years of testing loads I have found about 75 yards is where bullets start to have problems if it is a bad load , they can do ok at 75 but really bad at 100 yards . Some of the 75 yard target with the boattail bullets show tipping just beginning to start , that is why there are flyers . By 100 yards it would become very bad . With many Mosins having grooves of .312 to .316 , a boatail can ne a poor choice .Also any MOA statement means nothing as it is not relevant since bullets do NOT travel in a linear path . Anyone with shooting experience and knowledge of bullet fight path would know this . So a 3.77 inch 75 yard target is about 4x worse than what it would take to win one of our 100 yard matches . Also putting cork in a rifle is not a good idea as it causes more vibrations , you want to dampen them . That is why car makers use rubber isolators as motor mounts , it lets the motor vibrate free from the car body . A race car uses solid mounts and the motor itself is much smoother . A rifle group with be 3x as large at 100 as 50 and at 200 as 100 , so MOA does not mean anything . National benchrest shooters can do no better at matches .
ernie8 is offline  
Old November 21, 2019, 08:52 AM   #64
Josh Smith
member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2000
Location: Wabash IN
Posts: 740
Ernie, do you not know how accuracy and precision work?

Good lord, man. I can't help but think you have a hard on for anyone who disagrees with you.

You remind me of someone from the past. Do you own a wheelbarrow by chance?
Josh Smith is offline  
Old November 21, 2019, 02:43 PM   #65
ernie8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 217
Lets see , I was ranked 42nd in the US in National Benchrest shooting my last year of that . I am a custom gunsmith and run a ballistics lab , I do not cut out cork for rifles though . I developed the .460 S&W , the 350 Win Legend and built AR-15's for it 4 years ago . It is not so much that I disagree with you , it is that you are a rank beginner in your knowledge and I am trying to explain shooting to you . Please explain what part of my post you do not understand .
ernie8 is offline  
Old November 21, 2019, 03:19 PM   #66
emcon5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 1999
Location: High Desert NV
Posts: 2,850
Quote:
I do not cut out cork for rifles though
Good for you.

The Finns did and had good results with it, as have many people who have tried it. The Soviets didn't use cork, they used felt when prepping the Mosin Nagant for competition, and even on some Sniper rifles, but in the same place, for the same purpose. Again, people who have done it, myself included, have had good results from doing so.



But hey, believe what you want. Thanks for bumping a year old thread to tell us the Finns and Soviets didn't know what they were doing.
emcon5 is offline  
Old November 22, 2019, 08:20 AM   #67
Josh Smith
member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2000
Location: Wabash IN
Posts: 740
Quote:
Lets see , I was ranked 42nd in the US in National Benchrest shooting my last year of that.
Maybe you can shoot. I dunno. You need to cite references to back up your claims.


Quote:
I am a custom gunsmith and run a ballistics lab,
What shop? What lab? References please.

Quote:
I do not cut out cork for rifles though.
Your prerogative. It works to center the barrel in the channel and tones down the harmonics in lighter barrels. Pressure bedding the barrel is a thing, and cork works well when you do not want to alter the rifle. It's not my first choice for sporting rifles, but for milsurp, it's works well.

Quote:
I developed the .460 S&W,
References? I thought it was developed in-house at S&W, and based on the .454. Even if you did this, it's not a huge step to stretch the cartridge a bit more. Wildcatters have done this type of thing for years.

Quote:
the 350 Win Legend
... and again, references?

Quote:
and built AR-15's for it 4 years ago.
A lot of people build ARs for a lot of different rounds. I'm glad you were able to make a living.

Quote:
It is not so much that I disagree with you , it is that you are a rank beginner in your knowledge
Opinions vary.



Quote:
and I am trying to explain shooting to you.
Nobody asked you to.

Quote:
Please explain what part of my post you do not understand.
Mostly the parts where you purport to be an expert, but make claims you don't back up with references and/or fall on their figurative faces logically.

Listen: For the purposes of this thread here, you're claiming that establishing known pressure points on the receiver via the shims, tightening contact with the recoil lug, and centering the barrel in its channel while establishing a known pressure point that also happens to dampen the harmonics, will not have positive effects on precision.

Problem is, it demonstrably does improve precision, and has since at least the 1930s when the Russians an Finns both did very similar bedding work on their Mosins.

Look, man: I have no doubt that your heart's in the right place. However, we cannot just take your word for it, without references to back it up, that everything we've learned is wrong. You cannot function as an authority because you've made claims you cannot or will not back up. If perhaps you can verify your claims as to who you are an what you've done, we will maybe take you a bit more seriously. However, as it stands, you sound like you have a tactical assault wheelbarrow and might just be named "John Melvin Davis."

That's how you come across.

We should discuss 1911 pistols next. I'm half tempted to do that.

Josh

Last edited by Josh Smith; November 22, 2019 at 10:46 AM.
Josh Smith is offline  
Old November 22, 2019, 12:27 PM   #68
ernie8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 217
As far as references , I Told you of all the original German military documents . Go to Germany and spend days in some of their libraries and collect original Military manuals as my friend has . You just proved the articles you post were wrong in many points . I never said bedding a rifle did not work , just that I [ nor any other comp shooter that I know of ] uses cork . I do not need to make a living with gunsmithing , I do not charge as I only do work for friends . I never said anything about tactical anything ?? The original 460 S&W was based off of the 7.5mm Swiss as it was first designed for a bolt rifle . S&W did not want moon clips so THEY added the small rim . Fail logically ?? All your claims on 88's fail because there is not a rifle that matches them . All I said is that the UN-modified Mosin shot for years in our matches shoot about 4x better than what you are doing with your mods . Or do you think bullets travel in a linear path ? So if my rifle shoots a .0 MOA at 5 yards the MOA at 500 is still 0 ? I do not claim to be an expert on 1911's and only need a good handgun with a good trigger to shoot as well as that gun can . I do not shoot handguns well enough to gain from any other mods .
ernie8 is offline  
Old November 22, 2019, 12:48 PM   #69
Josh Smith
member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2000
Location: Wabash IN
Posts: 740
Ernie, is your real name John Melvin Davis?
Josh Smith is offline  
Old November 22, 2019, 01:16 PM   #70
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
OP is over a year old.
Nobody's ever going to call a Mosin Nagant a BR rifle or a target rifle though. Thought I saw 'em for way less than $100. Different importing rules up here. Mosin's were here long before they were Stateside.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old November 23, 2019, 05:46 PM   #71
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 3,006
Mosins are trash.

Fight me.
__________________
"9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old November 23, 2019, 05:49 PM   #72
Josh Smith
member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2000
Location: Wabash IN
Posts: 740
Your opinion, born of ignorance of the platform.

Regards,
Josh
Josh Smith is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12727 seconds with 11 queries