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Old December 18, 2010, 08:12 PM   #1
Wildalaska
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ATF Looking to Impose Multiple Sales Reports on Long Guns

I dont have all the details, but guess this silliness is tied into the alleged smuggling of guns to mexico.

Here is the proposed rule:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-31761.pdf

So I already wrote to Don Young, viz:


Hello Congressman Young:

I just was advised that the BATF has proposed that FFL Licensees be made to file Multiple Sales Reports for the sales of semi automatic Long Guns. The Notice is at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-31761.pdf.

Please do something to stop this. I believe it is beyond their scope of authority and is not only unduly burdensome, but a backdoor way to maintain a registry, which they are prohibited from doing. As you know, they already skirt the law by maintaining Multiple sales reports on Handguns.

I will also call your local office on Monday to bring this to your staff's attention. In addition, if you are in town next week, stop by the shop on Friday before 2pm and have some Christmas cheer with us! It's always good to see you and we appreciate your efforts for us.

Merry Christmas and Kind Regards.

Ken
Wild West Guns

Do your research you may want to write an email too...or call your Congressman

WildjustwhatineedmorepaperworkAlaska ™©2002-2010
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Old December 18, 2010, 11:13 PM   #2
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The biggest argument against the measure is the sheer amount of paperwork and time it takes to file it all. It's an undue burden on the dealer (as multiple handgun forms already are), and it's more stuff for the ATF to have to keep track of.

I can't imagine the folks in the Field Division offices looking forward to having to collate and organize all this.

Bear in mind that they proposed this once in September, and it failed. Now, the NRA is getting their feathers ruffled over it, so I don't see it passing.

There is an email link in the Federal Register to solicit comments. Focus on the "undue burden" aspect of it. Do the same with your congressmen.
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Old December 19, 2010, 11:23 PM   #3
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It appears that the good idea fairy visited the ATF.

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Old December 20, 2010, 09:08 PM   #4
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oops.

Last edited by madmag; December 21, 2010 at 10:17 AM.
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Old December 20, 2010, 10:17 PM   #5
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Just a transparent attempt by BATF to do enact administratively what Congress has thus far declined to authorize by statute or even, in the case of a firearms registry database, expressly banned.
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Old December 20, 2010, 11:00 PM   #6
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Yeah, if this is implemented, the next step will be to extend it for another 6 months, then a year, then it will be modified to apply to single rifle purchases, then to handgun purchases, then to all gun purchases...

No way should we let this go into effect...
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Old December 20, 2010, 11:28 PM   #7
sparky241
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jee why am i not surprised by this? after reading thread uppon thread of people buying 1,2,6 mosin nagants i thought they would do something like this.well i guess its better than i thought it would be.
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Old December 21, 2010, 10:15 AM   #8
madmag
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Related question.

Our local paper ran the story about the long gun reporting and also mentioned top 5 (nation wide) gun dealers that consistently have guns recovered from Mexican cartels.

I admit this might be a naive question for someone that has been shooting and buying guns for 60 years, but how does this happen?

-I assume that everyone that purchases from these gun dealers does pass the background check.

-It is illegal to make "straw" purchases.

-I assume the ATF goes back to the original owner to find out how that particular gun made it into the wrong hands.

How many times can a owner say their gun was stolen/lost etc.?

So, what is the mechanism for these legally purchased guns getting into the wrong hands??
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Old December 21, 2010, 11:41 AM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
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The problem with all the statistics related to mexican gun violence is that they leave out all the information about UNTRACEABLE guns.

I don't remember the exact numbers but it was mentioned in one story that only something like 20% of the guns recovered in mexico are even traceable. MOST of the reason that the 80% aren't traceable is because they come from places that have no firearms registry/control system.

In other words, the percentage of firearms that are traced back to America is actually only a percentage of the 20%.

They usually say something like "Of all traceable firearms used in mexican violence....."

and people go "Oh my God! 90% of those guns come from America!"

What they fail to realize is that the ONLY TRACEABLE GUNS almost ENTIRELY come from America....

In other words, it could be 1% of the total but all of that 1% come from America and they'd say...

100% of traceable guns come from America! We have to do SOMETHING!!

Remember the saying....

There's lies, damn lies and STATISTICS.
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Old December 21, 2010, 11:46 AM   #10
madmag
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
What they fail to realize is that the ONLY TRACEABLE GUNS almost ENTIRELY come from America....
I understand, and it's a good point. But I am still curious about how it happens (mechanism, path) for traceable guns to end up in the wrong hands??
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Old December 21, 2010, 11:52 AM   #11
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
But I am still curious about how it happens for traceable guns to end up in the wrong hands??
The dealer sells it... the guy who bought it sells it.... the guy who bought it 2nd sells it to a slightly less savory character.... who sells it to an illegal....


Or, a guy who's technically legal keeps buying guns from one particular dealer and intentionally reselling, "laundering" them somehow, to those who will take them to Mexico.


It speaks VOLUMES that the ATF is doing NOTHING to the those "top 5" dealers. They are following the law. It's down the line somewhere that the problem happens.

Although, consider again my original point which is that it's not truly much of a problem. The "numbers" are over blown by the "statistics".

Statistics like "80%" can really make you believe something that's not true.

4 out of 5 dentists recommend....

Yeah, except they asked 10 dentists and 6 of them recommended something else, so they just ignore 5 of the 6 and say "4 out of 5"...
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; December 21, 2010 at 12:30 PM.
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Old December 21, 2010, 12:12 PM   #12
madmag
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Ok, that sounds like a reasonable explanation. But it still all seems to amount to some kind of straw purchase. Being an honest citizen, I always thought the ATF would be at my door if multiple guns I owned kept showing up at crime scenes.
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Old December 21, 2010, 12:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
I understand, and it's a good point. But I am still curious about how it happens (mechanism, path) for traceable guns to end up in the wrong hands?
Peetzakilla is correct. Guns purchased at retail from American dealers are a small percentage of guns being confiscated in Mexico.

Another factor to bear in mind is this: just because a gun is being traced does not mean it was used to commit violence. Guns get traced for all sorts of reasons, and in a country where civilian ownership is severely restricted, a large percentage of "crime guns" were simply guns folks weren't supposed to possess.

My understanding is that the majority of American guns confiscated in Mexico are handguns and shotguns, and that the average age of those is over a decade.

So, if the Federales bust up a drug house, and they find:
  • 9 M-16's stolen by deserters from the Mexican army,
  • 4 Russian AK-47's,
  • 2 Chinese Tokarevs, and
  • a S&W Chief's Special purchased in 1978 and stolen from the car of a tourist in 1985

...the S&W is used as "proof" that American gun dealers are supporting the unrest in Mexico.
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Old December 21, 2010, 01:01 PM   #14
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
So, if the Federales bust up a drug house, and they find:
9 M-16's stolen by deserters from the Mexican army,
4 Russian AK-47's,
2 Chinese Tokarevs, and
a S&W Chief's Special purchased in 1978 and stolen from the car of a tourist in 1985

...the S&W is used as "proof" that American gun dealers are supporting the unrest in Mexico.
Yep, and that S&W is probably the ONLY traceable gun in the whole lot... so 100% of the traceable guns came from America! Oh My God! The horror!
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Old December 21, 2010, 02:05 PM   #15
tet4
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Uh, it could also be that the top five FFLs sell a lot of guns in this country and may be located in markets where gun runners are found. I know some of the FFLs run a shady business but ATF would be closing them down faster then ever before. So, I highly doubt anything is going on at the FFL level for those five FFLs.

Now, as to how they are getting the guns, it's by private transfer. But, let's for a minute assume that we passed a law to ban private, unregistered transfers. So, now, the cartels will just find the same unscrupulous people as before. They buy the guns and register them in their names and sell them off to the cartels. Do they worry about having the gun in their name? Maybe, but if the cartels are paying 5k per AK, one could run a fairly large number of guns at that price and move out of country fast enough to have made it worthwhile for them, so I don't really see it solving a problem. Even better, just file off the serials and now they are untraceable.

But, this is assuming that the bulk of the cartels' weapons come from the US anyway, which I have a hard time believing (and the data aren't there to support it anyway). Why would cartels pay black market prices for guns through straw purchase from FFLs in the US, take the risk of smuggling it across the border, and have to live with semi-auto weapons, (and then not take the time to file off the serials?) when they could smuggle full auto weapons from any number of other countries for much cheaper and by the crate - probably with just a chartered airplane? It's not like they don't have the means to smuggle illicit contraband. And, where does all their ammo come from?

To me the risk/reward ratio doesn't make sense. These are large, powerful, international groups that sell a product with such a high profit margin to make the illegal trade worth it. They have the means to smuggle tons of contraband all over the world every day, yet they somehow think it's easier to piece-meal acquire sub-optimal weapons off the american black market than it would be to smuggle a few containers of weapons from venezuela?
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Old December 21, 2010, 11:14 PM   #16
Al Norris
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As we should all have heard by now, the said purpose of this new "rule" is to stop guns going into Mexico by way of 3 or 4 border States. However, the notice published in the Federal Register does not give any geographic limitations. So this "Rule" will affect every FFL in the U.S.

In case you missed it, the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) suggests the following to help fight this.

1. Call the Office of Management and Budget, Office of Information and Regulation Affairs, Department of Justice, Desk Officer at (202) 395-6466.

2. E-mail Barbara A. Terrell, ATF, Firearms Industry Programs Branch at [email protected]

3. Call your Senators and Representative: United States Capitol Switchboard: 202-224-3121

The points you need to make to these people:
  1. Multiple sales reporting of long guns will actually make it more difficult for licensed retailers to help law enforcement as traffickers modify their illegal schemes to circumvent the reporting requirement. Traffickers will go further underground, hiring more people to buy their firearms. This will make it much harder for retailers to identify and report suspicious behavior to law enforcement.
  2. Long guns are rarely used in crime (Bureau of Justice Statistics).
  3. Imposing multiple sales-reporting requirements for long guns would further add to the already extensive paperwork and record-keeping requirements burdening America’s retailers – where a single mistake could cost them their license and even land them in jail.
  4. Last year, ATF inspected 2,000 retailers in border states and only two licenses were revoked (0.1%). These revocations were for reasons unknown and could have had nothing to do with illicit trafficking of guns; furthermore, no dealers were charged with any criminal wrongdoing.
  5. According to ATF, the average age of a firearm recovered in the United States is 11 years old. In Mexico it’s more than 14 years old. This demonstrates that criminals are not using new guns bought from retailers in the states.
  6. Congress, when it enacted multiple sales reporting for handguns, could have required multiple sales of long guns – it specifically chose not to.
Every FFL that I know of, is making this effort. We should flood the system with calls and emails.
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Old December 21, 2010, 11:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Yep, and that S&W is probably the ONLY traceable gun in the whole lot... so 100% of the traceable guns came from America!
You, sir, are smarter than 98.565% of journalists in America.

The few American guns they're finding (and publicizing) in Mexico aren't the ones being used in crimes for the most part.
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