Canada Orders Sig P320(M17)Removed From Service

[Death-Ninja]

No surprise to me, the gun that definitely did not beat the Glock 19X is definitely not a service worthy sidearm.... Pulled pending detailed explanation as to just what it did, though as an experienced Sailor I can assert in no uncertain terms that it did something so alarming they didn't hesitate in pulling them all out of service!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsu6WsSQ2_g

[RC20]

Instead of glock Leg we have Sig Leg

Nothing new, like the so called un-intended acceleration, people not used to a manual trany get on the wrong pedal and push it then swear they were on he brake (this is now refuted by the computer log so you don't see that claim anymore).

Reality is you cannot overcome an the brakes with anything less than like a 750 hp engine and then it barely drags along.

Most likely this is an ergonomics issue with a person not used to the goofy striker system (yes I think its the worst thing since using atomic bombs to make harbors)

Canucks did the right thing, but its classic glock Leg MO.

[Death-Ninja]

Instead of glock Leg we have Sig Leg

Nothing new, like the so called un-intended acceleration, people not used to a manual trany get on the wrong pedal and push it then swear they were on he brake (this is now refuted by the computer log so you don't see that claim anymore).

Reality is you cannot overcome an the brakes with anything less than like a 750 hp engine and then it barely drags along.

Most likely this is an ergonomics issue with a person not used to the goofy striker system (yes I think its the worst thing since using atomic bombs to make harbors)

Canucks did the right thing, but its classic glock Leg MO.

The rumor is(just a rumor)that the P320 fired while it was holstered, however until confirmed or not by the investigation, such is just a rumor.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Death-Ninja

Drive by??? Come on, stop with the silliness, the pistol in question possesses just as much credibility as does Joe Biden, Jeffery Epstein hanging himself, or Bigfoot sightings, clearly the thing was assured of selection in the United States prior to the faux service pistol trial, with the Glock literally competing against itself. Don't want to accept the truth from me, fine, but you will be accepting the truth, go youtube up Chris Bartucci of "Small Arms Solutions" report on the shady aspects of the trial from the military itself! I'm not surprised in the least that this thing was taken out of service in Canada by its SF, I expect much more to come with the thing in the US in the coming years...

It’s not that I necessarily disagree (I carry Glocks and have owned P320s, and no longer own those P320s). I will say that your response seems like a textbook case of confirmation bias.

I’ve watched the Small Arms Solution video not long after it came out and was making the rounds. Every time a story comes out with the P320 that video gets brought up again.


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[Doc Intrepid]

Does the rumor report where the shooter's finger was while the firearm was being holstered?

I'm open minded regarding a pistol with poor engineering. I'm more skeptical of reports that any firearm, particularly a Sig, suddenly fired by itself while holstered absent any pressure on its trigger.

It would be good to have additional details before forming any opinions.

[Death-Ninja]

Does the rumor report where the shooter's finger was while the firearm was being holstered?

I'm open minded regarding a pistol with poor engineering. I'm more skeptical of reports that any firearm, particularly a Sig, suddenly fired by itself while holstered absent any pressure on its trigger.

It would be good to have additional details before forming any opinions.

We have a track record from whence to proceed from, a clear track record of defect in the series, the polymer sig is not the same superior design that the 226, 228, and 229's were, its literally been plagued by issues, and its not for nothing that they stopped all testing between it and the 19X before they were to compete head to head, let that sink in, it never actually went head to head with the Glock, they just stopped the testing after sig submitted a low ball contrat that I promise you will end up nowhere near that price point once dust finally settles, which is why Glock was so pissed off.

Chris Bartucci has an excellent summary of the faux testing, but he is much more diplomatic about things then am I, clearly it was a fixed competition in the States. At any rate, I doubt very much that Canadian Special Forces pulled them all from service if there was any chance the pistol was negligently discharged within the holster.

Taurus produced a plastic pistol that was adopted by the Brazilian armed forces, that pistol was sold in the states as the 24/7 I believe, there is a legendary video somewhere on youtube of a Brazilian cop shooting the thing by simply shaking it from side to side! My impression of the M17 was that Sig was building it as they went along, which is why their pals at DoD stopped testing as soon as the low ball bid was tendered, they did not want that pistol going head to head with the Glock. It will be interesting to see where the investigation lands.

[TunnelRat]

If you read the GAO report released as part of Glock’s complaint you’d know it did go head to head.

Building it as they went? The P320 had been in production since 2014.

The MHS trials are over. They’ve been over for years now. What good does it do to keep debating it? Glock will be fine. They survived without the US military contract before and they will again.


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[Death-Ninja]

Sig punches back,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvzI6Wg0Duk

[Death-Ninja]

If you read the GAO report released as part of Glock’s complaint you’d know it did go head to head.

Building it as they went? The P320 had been in production since 2014.

The MHS trials are over. They’ve been over for years now. What good does it do to keep debating it? Glock will be fine. They survived without the US military contract before and they will again.

If they had tested them head to head, which they DID not do, and the GAO clearly demonstrates that, they would have immediately discovered that the M17 could not run on 124 gr nato ball, forcing the DoD to request a fix, and requesting a fix during testing trials is never a good thing! Currently there are widespread reports of the P320 going bang when it should not be going bang! Nonetheless, I have posted Sigs response to the report in post ten.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Death-Ninja

If they had tested them head to head, which they DID not do, and the GAO clearly demonstrates that, they would have immediately discovered that the M17 could not run on 124 gr nato ball, forcing the DoD to request a fix, and requesting a fix during testing trials is never a good thing! Currently there are widespread reports of the P320 going bang when it should not be going bang! Nonetheless, I have posted Sigs response to the report in post ten.

They went head to head. The original complaint from Glock was that a second phase of testing wasn’t completed, not that no testing at all was completed. The pistols themselves were compared in a number of categories including reliability, accuracy, and ergonomics. After the first series of tests outlined in Section M of the competition the government chose to end the competition and select a winner based on the results thus far. Glock protested that more than one pistol had to make it passed those first series of tests and that the Section H tests had to be completed. In the GAO report they cover that in the competition up to three competitors were allowed to progress from the first series of testing if deemed necessary, but it wasn’t required. More so the GAO report explains that Section H testing would be completed, but Glock simply wasn’t going to be part of that testing. SIG had to pass the Section H testing prior to being generally distributed.

Glock also complained that SIG’s compact pistol wasn’t tested to the full extent of its full size pistol (SIG submitted a two pistol solution as opposed to Glock’s one pistol solution). 12,500 rounds were fired as part of the evaluation on each of the full size SIG entry and Glock entry. This was to achieve a 90% confidence level of 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages. 1,500 rounds were fired as part of the evaluation on the compact SIG entry. When the Army realized that not enough rounds were to be fired through the compact pistol to match the same requirement as the full size pistols (despite the RFP saying this wasn’t required of the compact pistol) they chose not to score that section (a section Glock wasn’t even competing in as they didn’t have a two gun solution). Given that Glock wasn’t scored differently than SIG in this category the claim of prejudice was dropped.

This article covers the GAO report and provides links to the report itself. It also mentions some of Glock’s protests, though to go into all of them you need to read the full GAO report:
https://taskandpurpose.com/gear-tech...-award-thrown/

The ammunition problems were discovered during the Product Verification Test in 2017. The pistols functioned well with the special purpose ammunition that was also part of the MHS trials, but as you noted had issues with ball ammunition. Given the manufacturers had been encouraged to optimize their pistols for the special purpose ammunition, it’s not completely unexpected. You can read about that here:
https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/...liability.html

I like YouTube and I actually subscribe to Guns and Gadgets. When it comes to the government there is almost always paperwork documenting practically everything. Those reports are often quite long, often delayed in their release to the general public, and not exactly riveting. But you have to read all of it to get to the whole story. What often happens is snippets of the more interesting parts of those reports make it into the news, often without the full context.

This is in part exemplified in the response described in the most recent video you posted. Was a soldier injured? Yes. Does using a holster not intended for the pistol potentially cause a problem? Yes. Now this story may continue to develop and maybe an issue will be found, that possibility always exists.

My point from the beginning was don’t jump on a story just because it fits your already established opinion. Let the full details develop and look into the story (from multiple sources if possible).


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[Death-Ninja]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0LUbLu6TqA

[TunnelRat]

Yeah I know. Remember you’ve already mentioned it and I said I’ve watched it? We can read about these events ourselves (in part at the links I’ve provided, and there are others as well).

If you’re not willing to actually have a discussion and just want to keep beating a drum, that’s always your prerogative. At some point though you may want to ask yourself why.


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[raimius]

The M17 may have problems, but when you say it involved a modified holster designed for a different gun...


Well, that probably deserves the initial scrutiny!

[RC20]

First is an interesting mental test to asses an issue and be write (pun intended) or hang you butt out and be wrong. I had a friend what was a Sheriff Dept, one of their guys shot himself int he butt with a glock so he came up with glock butt.

that glock lost the military competition I find hilarious. They faked so many tests in the past for their magic wonder gun and bough themselves out of so many lawsuits its well deserved fate.

They staked their op on a PR campaign and it worked once, now, meh.

From a technical standpoint, you want a device to do one thing well, it can adapter to others (the old fighter vs the F-111 that was supposed to do it all).

From a tech standpoint the striker is a half assed solution between a SA and a DA.

A DA pistol can do both a safe aspect and a precision SA, Much like an F-18 that you push a button and its ground attack mode or you push another one and its A fighter mode.

The problems with a striker is that its always going around half cocked and its too easy to pull the trigger and it has no safety (or most do not)

The SP2022 would have been a fantastic offering for the military. I guess they feel a need to dumb down the pistol despite the fact that the infantry carries machine guns.

I would be extraordinary skepticism that a P320 fired by itself though its possible any striker can be induced to do so with enough failures. It would take a knock.

So stay tuned. P320 is no better function wise than a glock, happy to see Sig got it if they are going to go the striker route. My take is if you carry a pistol you should be trained to shoot the damned thing right or you should not be issued one.

Amazing the US limped along with the much worse with the 1911 all those years.

Per glock that should have lead to the end of the world.

[imp]

I love the P320 platform, but I will honestly say it's not a good pistol for inattentive or unsafe users, or for inexperienced users.

Comparing a P320 side by side with a Glock 17, the Glock trigger has atleast 3X more pre-travel and a spongier break. While I don't have a trigger pull guage the actual trigger weight seems pretty even between the two.

I think every manufacturer has to walk a fine line between designing triggers that are light and crisp and easy to shoot well, and still prevent unintentional discharging.

Maybe Sig screwed up by giving their customers what they asked for....

[jmr40]

I've had Glocks for years. I bought the 1st Sig M17 I saw when they were introduced. IMO the military could have just bought G19's off the shelf and saved a ton of money that went into testing. Glocks have been passing field tests for years. No reason for further testing.

My Sig has a lighter, shorter trigger pull than my Glocks making it a bit easier to shoot accurately. I suppose that could also lead to more unintended shots being fired. But that is also balanced out by having a 1911 style safety not present on Glocks.

Overall I like the Sig a little better and being a long time 1911 user having the safety is part of that equation. But I still don't think the Sig is enough better to have justified the extra costs. I think we'd have been a lot better off financially had we just skipped the trials and bought a butt load of Glocks.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by jmr40

I've had Glocks for years. I bought the 1st Sig M17 I saw when they were introduced. IMO the military could have just bought G19's off the shelf and saved a ton of money that went into testing. Glocks have been passing field tests for years. No reason for further testing.

My Sig has a lighter, shorter trigger pull than my Glocks making it a bit easier to shoot accurately. I suppose that could also lead to more unintended shots being fired. But that is also balanced out by having a 1911 style safety not present on Glocks.

Overall I like the Sig a little better and being a long time 1911 user having the safety is part of that equation. But I still don't think the Sig is enough better to have justified the extra costs. I think we'd have been a lot better off financially had we just skipped the trials and bought a butt load of Glocks.

My guess is the cost of testing was very little next to the cost of the contract itself. As for saving money, the package from SIG was dramatically cheaper than the package by Glock. SIG’s bid came in at just about $169.5 million, $103 million less than Glock’s.


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[wild cat mccane]

Well...and we had just made home to a company that was kicked out of its home country for breaking gun laws...

Sure that had nothing to do with it

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Well...and we had just made home to a company that was kicked out of its home country for breaking gun laws...

Sure that had nothing to do with it

SIG Sauer Inc was already established before SIG Sauer GmbH got in trouble for the SP2022 shipment.


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[Sgt127]

Only since Glock came out was it considered prudent to carry cocked and unlocked pistols.

[JohnKSa]

Only since Glock came out was it considered prudent to carry cocked and unlocked pistols.

Glocks are neither cocked nor unlocked in their normal carry mode with a round chambered.

[FrankenMauser]

Instead of glock Leg we have Sig Leg

Nothing new, like the so called un-intended acceleration, people not used to a manual trany get on the wrong pedal and push it then swear they were on he brake (this is now refuted by the computer log so you don't see that claim anymore).

Reality is you cannot overcome an the brakes with anything less than like a 750 hp engine and then it barely drags along.

Most likely this is an ergonomics issue with a person not used to the goofy striker system (yes I think its the worst thing since using atomic bombs to make harbors)

Canucks did the right thing, but its classic glock Leg MO.

Unintended acceleration is caused by mechanical failure or people hitting the accelerator instead of the brake; not by people trying to stomp the clutch but hitting the brake instead.

750 hp, eh? And then "it barely drags along"? Have you driven a car on this planet?
Have you ever tried to stop a moving car stuck at full throttle?
The statements that you are making do not align with reality. They are so far from reality that no one else wanted to waste their time by addressing them.

There are two widely circulated videos of Sig 320s discharging while holstered, without the person's hands anywhere near them. Neither was found to have debris or foreign material near the triggers.
Wait for the facts, before blaming the person. The fault is usually the idiot holding the gun. But this model has proven to want to go full Taurus. Wait for the facts.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Unintended acceleration is caused by mechanical failure or people hitting the accelerator instead of the brake; not by people trying to stomp the clutch but hitting the brake instead.

750 hp, eh? And then "it barely drags along"? Have you driven a car on this planet?
Have you ever tried to stop a moving car stuck at full throttle?
The statements that you are making do not align with reality. They are so far from reality that no one else wanted to waste their time by addressing them.

There are two widely circulated videos of Sig 320s discharging while holstered, without the person's hands anywhere near them. Neither was found to have debris or foreign material near the triggers.
Wait for the facts, before blaming the person. The fault is usually the idiot holding the gun. But this model has proven to want to go full Taurus. Wait for the facts.

Can you link to the two videos you mentioned?


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[Fishbed77]

This is a classic example of blaming the tool versus blaming poor training and human error.

[FrankenMauser]

I can't find them right now.
I'll let you know if they turn up.