Fox pepper spray vs. Advanced Taser?

Dave3006 · January 10, 2002, 06:54 PM

Which would you rather have in your car for a non-lethal weapon? Here is how I see the issues:

Advanced Taser
1. Outstanding at putting one person down and keeping them down for long periods of time.
2. Easy to use.
3. Shape is like a gun. Could deter or provoke the attacker.
4. Poor on multiple opponents. One shot and then it is a contact weapon. After the juice is turned off, people recover quickly.

Fox Pepper Spray
1. The best of the Pepper sprays. But, I am still skeptical of the overall effectiveness of pepper after seeing it used on people on T.V. Unfortunately, I think the brands used had much lower SHU and %OC.
2. Effected by wind, rain.
3. Good on multiple opponents.
4. Probably harder to get a good hit to face than the taser.

Any comments?

D.W. Drang · January 10, 2002, 07:22 PM

Quote:

2. Easy to use.

Is this one of the contact ones or one of the "shoot another hapoon at 'em, Ahab" ones?
In the former, you have top get close enough to touch a person who is trying to do you bodily harm...
In the second, you have to be able to hit him with both harpoons!!!
In either case, you have to make contact. Heavy outer clothing could be an effective defense.

Quote:

3. Shape is like a gun. Could deter or provoke the attacker.

Could get your brains blown out by the polizei...

Quote:

But, I am still skeptical of the overall effectiveness of pepper after seeing it used on people on T.V.

What show? Anyone we would recognize as having a clue or two?

Quote:

4. Probably harder to get a good hit to face than the taser.

I disagree. I also am not so sure a taser shot to the face is a good idea with an allegedly non-lethal weapon...

Did I mention, I don't like tasers as an option...?

D.W. Drang · January 10, 2002, 07:33 PM

Ooops! It sure was taking a long time to post, now I know why...

C.R.Sam · January 10, 2002, 08:35 PM

Stuck with the better of two very uncertain choices. Would opt for the pepper spray.

Can of spray paint or carb cleaner probably just as good.

Sam

Dave3006 · January 10, 2002, 09:13 PM

It is the newest taser that fires 15'. This one has more stopping power than a handgun. www.airtaser.com.

It does have serious limitations. It has one shot. Then, it is a contact weapon. And, you do have to hit him with both darts.

But, make no mistake, this is not the type of taser Rodney King ripped the darts out of. This one works. Whatever you think you know about tasers is wrong unless you watch the videos on their site. My favorite is the jail cell video.

D.W. Drang · January 10, 2002, 11:34 PM

Quote:

But, make no mistake, this is not the type of taser Rodney King ripped the darts out of. This one works.

Is this the taser that I saw the Violence Policy Center stooge shilling for last week, the one that looks like a glock?
The one that is "less powerful that a Law Enforcement Taser"...?

Coronach · January 10, 2002, 11:40 PM

Tasers violate the KISS principle. Truth be told, LEOs only employ the taser in a scenario where they have pretty much everything under control except the subject. They have one officer with a taser and multiple other officers covering him.

Will you have such advantages?

Mike

Dave3006 · January 11, 2002, 12:09 AM

Coronach, I respect your opinion because of your experience in law enforcement, why do you say that this violates the KISS principle? Do you believe that Pepper spray is better? I have 10 years of karate and 5 years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I just would like a non-lethal option to avoid a fight due to some sort of road rage scenario.

Coronach · January 11, 2002, 12:46 AM

I thought about rephrasing that. I was starting off with one thought and merging it into another and not explaining myself very well.

Pepper spray is point and click simple. If you miss, you spray again. Is it totally effective? No. Is it suscpetible to outside factors (such as wind, and possibly blowing back on you)? Yes. But tasers are not 100% effecitve either, and they too are susceptible to outside factors (thick coats, etc). I dislike the one-shot nature of the taser most of all. Missing is easy- ask any shooter.

Look at how tasers are employed in law enforcement: Officers surround a guy (or at least contain him in an area), and have complete control over everything except the target. They could just shoot him, but they don't want to harm him. So one officer grabs the less-lethal weapon (taser, or beanbag-shotgun) and deals with the subject while the other officers cover him to make sure he is safe. If the less-lethal weapon is effective, the guy gets cuffed without too much further scuffle. If it does not work, he can still be shot, or end up on the ground floor of a pig pile.

Look at how OC spray is employed in law enforcement: Officer(s) is(are) dealing with a turbulent and combative subject who is causing him/them trouble RIGHT NOW in a rapidly evolving and uncontrolled scenario. The officer(s) deploy(s) spray and, if effective, the subject is cuffed. If not, we truck up one more notch on the ole 'use of force continuum' and out comes the baton or the fists-and-feet.

These are two very different tools. Can you crossover with them? Sure. There are times when you might surround the guy and just decide to mace him. there are times when you have something happening RIGHT NOW and you have your taser on hand and ZAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPP. But in general the taser is used in a controlled and precise manner, while the pepper spray is used in more dynamic scenarios. Your scenario will most likley be rapid and dynamic, and not include a lot of allies covering you while you deploy the taser.

YMMV,
Mike

striderteen · January 11, 2002, 02:04 AM

How about one of the new laser-ionization tasers? They use twin UV-frequency lasers to ionize conductive paths through the air instead of wires, so they don't have any darts and they have a significantly longer range.

On the other hand, I'm not sure they're actually on the market yet.

David Park · January 11, 2002, 09:16 AM

I agree with Coronach's reasoning, and if I could only choose one, I would (and do) choose OC.

However, I don't have to choose a single tool. I carry Fox OC on my keychain, but I also carry a handgun, several knives, a SureFire flashlight, and a cellphone. The taser mentioned above looks pretty big, bigger than my gun. I don't think there's room on my belt for any more gadgets.

I know Dave3006 is asking about car use, but if I'm in my car, that's both my sword and shield. In a pure road rage case, I would never exit the vehicle and probably never stop. In an accident situation where I had to stop, I would keep the doors locked and call the police on the cellphone if the other party appeared to be enraged or violent. Accidents are Condition Orange situations anyway.

David Park · January 11, 2002, 09:23 AM

Another consideration not mentioned in the original post: cost. A can of OC costs between $10 and $20. The basic Advanced Taser costs $300 (from here). Since this is a special-case tool for situations where your life is not at risk, the OC spray is definitely more cost effective.

C.R.Sam · January 11, 2002, 10:28 AM

Mike said what I was going to.....only a lot better. He has it covered.

Sam

Rickmeister · January 11, 2002, 10:36 AM

You really need to be careful who you spray OC on.

Take me for example. I'm from Texas

and I've been to quite a few chili cook-outs in my time (Real chili---not that wimpy stuff in a can). I've had some of the hottest bowls on the menu

:barf:

and believe me: after 30 years I'm pretty much immune to that grub.

I wouldn't brag that I'm totally immune to OC, but odds are that I'd recover from it a hell of a lot faster than, say, my aunt from Georgia, who goes into convulsions just looking at my southern-style fajitas (pronounced fah-HEE-tahs). I stock the fridge with croissants, coldcuts and apple pie whenever she visits

OC is derived from habanero pepper extract. Boy, you oughta try habanero sauce someday. You haven't LIVED until you do. Your tongue curls back like a deflated party toy, your throat shrivels up like bacon on a hot skillet, your eyebrows are singed to a crisp, and your stomach has a Grand Mal episode! Oh, man, the taste!---Slurp! Smack! Ahhh... I might take the Fox with me the next time I travel north (You know, to have something to put on my stakes. A1 and Heinz 57 just won't do.).

But that's beside the point. What you need be sure of is that the person you spray has a low tolerance for even the lowest OC heat factor. Otherwise your just gonna piss him off.

As for tasers, why don't you just walk your assailant over to the nearest wall socket and kindly ask him to stick his fingers in it?

Dave3006 · January 11, 2002, 03:44 PM

Thanks. I really appreciate the comments from Coronach and Dave Park. I see what you mean about the way police use this weapon.

I live in California. So a CCW is just about out of the question. I carry a Benchmade AFCK. I have a black belt in Karate and several years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I just was trying to look for a good weapon below the level of lethal force that I could employ if a non-lethal threat occured. I can defend myself. But, I would rather stack the odds in my favor. The only thing that makes me hesitate away from Pepper spray is that, over the years, on various News and "real life" shows, I have seen pepper spray used on people with little or no effect. I know this is not scientific. However, I am having a hard time seeing it as even 50% reliable. This may make you laugh, I actually had a chance to be hit with the Taser model M18. It COMPLETELY incapacitated me. On the downside, I was ready to go in a few seconds after the juice was off.

Bottom line, in my limited opinion, there probably are no highly dependable and practical less-than-lethal weapons out there yet. Progress is being made. However, I think we have a way to go. I could be wrong. Just my opinion.

January 10, 2002, 06:54 PM	#1
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	Fox pepper spray vs. Advanced Taser? Which would you rather have in your car for a non-lethal weapon? Here is how I see the issues: Advanced Taser 1. Outstanding at putting one person down and keeping them down for long periods of time. 2. Easy to use. 3. Shape is like a gun. Could deter or provoke the attacker. 4. Poor on multiple opponents. One shot and then it is a contact weapon. After the juice is turned off, people recover quickly. Fox Pepper Spray 1. The best of the Pepper sprays. But, I am still skeptical of the overall effectiveness of pepper after seeing it used on people on T.V. Unfortunately, I think the brands used had much lower SHU and %OC. 2. Effected by wind, rain. 3. Good on multiple opponents. 4. Probably harder to get a good hit to face than the taser. Any comments?

January 10, 2002, 11:40 PM	#7
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Tasers violate the KISS principle. Truth be told, LEOs only employ the taser in a scenario where they have pretty much everything under control except the subject. They have one officer with a taser and multiple other officers covering him. Will you have such advantages? Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

January 11, 2002, 12:46 AM	#9
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	I thought about rephrasing that. I was starting off with one thought and merging it into another and not explaining myself very well. Pepper spray is point and click simple. If you miss, you spray again. Is it totally effective? No. Is it suscpetible to outside factors (such as wind, and possibly blowing back on you)? Yes. But tasers are not 100% effecitve either, and they too are susceptible to outside factors (thick coats, etc). I dislike the one-shot nature of the taser most of all. Missing is easy- ask any shooter. Look at how tasers are employed in law enforcement: Officers surround a guy (or at least contain him in an area), and have complete control over everything except the target. They could just shoot him, but they don't want to harm him. So one officer grabs the less-lethal weapon (taser, or beanbag-shotgun) and deals with the subject while the other officers cover him to make sure he is safe. If the less-lethal weapon is effective, the guy gets cuffed without too much further scuffle. If it does not work, he can still be shot, or end up on the ground floor of a pig pile. Look at how OC spray is employed in law enforcement: Officer(s) is(are) dealing with a turbulent and combative subject who is causing him/them trouble RIGHT NOW in a rapidly evolving and uncontrolled scenario. The officer(s) deploy(s) spray and, if effective, the subject is cuffed. If not, we truck up one more notch on the ole 'use of force continuum' and out comes the baton or the fists-and-feet. These are two very different tools. Can you crossover with them? Sure. There are times when you might surround the guy and just decide to mace him. there are times when you have something happening RIGHT NOW and you have your taser on hand and ZAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPP. But in general the taser is used in a controlled and precise manner, while the pepper spray is used in more dynamic scenarios. Your scenario will most likley be rapid and dynamic, and not include a lot of allies covering you while you deploy the taser. YMMV, Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

January 11, 2002, 09:16 AM	#11
David Park Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 1,224	I agree with Coronach's reasoning, and if I could only choose one, I would (and do) choose OC. However, I don't have to choose a single tool. I carry Fox OC on my keychain, but I also carry a handgun, several knives, a SureFire flashlight, and a cellphone. The taser mentioned above looks pretty big, bigger than my gun. I don't think there's room on my belt for any more gadgets. I know Dave3006 is asking about car use, but if I'm in my car, that's both my sword and shield. In a pure road rage case, I would never exit the vehicle and probably never stop. In an accident situation where I had to stop, I would keep the doors locked and call the police on the cellphone if the other party appeared to be enraged or violent. Accidents are Condition Orange situations anyway. __________________ Libertarian for Bush '04

January 11, 2002, 10:36 AM	#14
Rickmeister Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 797	You really need to be careful who you spray OC on. Take me for example. I'm from Texas and I've been to quite a few chili cook-outs in my time (Real chili---not that wimpy stuff in a can). I've had some of the hottest bowls on the menu :barf: and believe me: after 30 years I'm pretty much immune to that grub. I wouldn't brag that I'm totally immune to OC, but odds are that I'd recover from it a hell of a lot faster than, say, my aunt from Georgia, who goes into convulsions just looking at my southern-style fajitas (pronounced fah-HEE-tahs). I stock the fridge with croissants, coldcuts and apple pie whenever she visits OC is derived from habanero pepper extract. Boy, you oughta try habanero sauce someday. You haven't LIVED until you do. Your tongue curls back like a deflated party toy, your throat shrivels up like bacon on a hot skillet, your eyebrows are singed to a crisp, and your stomach has a Grand Mal episode! Oh, man, the taste!---Slurp! Smack! Ahhh... I might take the Fox with me the next time I travel north (You know, to have something to put on my stakes. A1 and Heinz 57 just won't do.). But that's beside the point. What you need be sure of is that the person you spray has a low tolerance for even the lowest OC heat factor. Otherwise your just gonna piss him off. As for tasers, why don't you just walk your assailant over to the nearest wall socket and kindly ask him to stick his fingers in it? Last edited by Rickmeister; January 11, 2002 at 02:13 PM.

January 10, 2002, 08:35 PM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Stuck with the better of two very uncertain choices. Would opt for the pepper spray. Can of spray paint or carb cleaner probably just as good. Sam

January 10, 2002, 09:13 PM	#5
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	It is the newest taser that fires 15'. This one has more stopping power than a handgun. www.airtaser.com. It does have serious limitations. It has one shot. Then, it is a contact weapon. And, you do have to hit him with both darts. But, make no mistake, this is not the type of taser Rodney King ripped the darts out of. This one works. Whatever you think you know about tasers is wrong unless you watch the videos on their site. My favorite is the jail cell video.

January 11, 2002, 12:09 AM	#8
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	Coronach, I respect your opinion because of your experience in law enforcement, why do you say that this violates the KISS principle? Do you believe that Pepper spray is better? I have 10 years of karate and 5 years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I just would like a non-lethal option to avoid a fight due to some sort of road rage scenario.

January 11, 2002, 02:04 AM	#10
striderteen Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2001 Location: Pasadena, California Posts: 590	How about one of the new laser-ionization tasers? They use twin UV-frequency lasers to ionize conductive paths through the air instead of wires, so they don't have any darts and they have a significantly longer range. On the other hand, I'm not sure they're actually on the market yet.

January 11, 2002, 09:23 AM	#12
David Park Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 1,224	Another consideration not mentioned in the original post: cost. A can of OC costs between $10 and $20. The basic Advanced Taser costs $300 (from here). Since this is a special-case tool for situations where your life is not at risk, the OC spray is definitely more cost effective.

January 11, 2002, 10:28 AM	#13
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Mike said what I was going to.....only a lot better. He has it covered. Sam

January 11, 2002, 03:44 PM	#15
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	Thanks. I really appreciate the comments from Coronach and Dave Park. I see what you mean about the way police use this weapon. I live in California. So a CCW is just about out of the question. I carry a Benchmade AFCK. I have a black belt in Karate and several years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I just was trying to look for a good weapon below the level of lethal force that I could employ if a non-lethal threat occured. I can defend myself. But, I would rather stack the odds in my favor. The only thing that makes me hesitate away from Pepper spray is that, over the years, on various News and "real life" shows, I have seen pepper spray used on people with little or no effect. I know this is not scientific. However, I am having a hard time seeing it as even 50% reliable. This may make you laugh, I actually had a chance to be hit with the Taser model M18. It COMPLETELY incapacitated me. On the downside, I was ready to go in a few seconds after the juice was off. Bottom line, in my limited opinion, there probably are no highly dependable and practical less-than-lethal weapons out there yet. Progress is being made. However, I think we have a way to go. I could be wrong. Just my opinion.