9mm revolvers ?

[Webleymkv]

The problem with Lucky Gunner's tests, in my mind, is that they chose to use Clear Ballistics gelatin. Clear Ballistics is not the same as calibrated 10% ordinance gel and doesn't always give results consistent with real ordinance gelatin. Clear Ballistics gel is cheaper and easier to work with hence why so many YouTubers choose to use it, but it cannot be trusted to give the same results as the industry standard calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin.

Because they did not use what most in the industry have agreed is the best tissue simulant extant, Lucky Gunner's tests really aren't much more useful than the people who shoot water jugs, wet paper, modeling clay, specimens from the butcher's shop, or various fruits and vegetables.

[wild cat mccane]

Ah. But when you do the same gel across all calibers, that complaint can only lead one to say it can't be compared to other gel.

You can look at Lucky Gunners 9mm vs 357 as a comparison between the two calibers, because it was the same gel.

[Onward Allusion]

I get the case for 9mm revolver, but does anybody make that gun?

The Taurus 692 is a 7 shot 38/357/9 convertible that has a 3" barrel w/black oxide finish option that uses moon clips for 9mm and has large sights but no off the shelf tritium.

[IdaD]

Originally Posted by Webleymkv

The problem with Lucky Gunner's tests, in my mind, is that they chose to use Clear Ballistics gelatin. Clear Ballistics is not the same as calibrated 10% ordinance gel and doesn't always give results consistent with real ordinance gelatin. Clear Ballistics gel is cheaper and easier to work with hence why so many YouTubers choose to use it, but it cannot be trusted to give the same results as the industry standard calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin.

Because they did not use what most in the industry have agreed is the best tissue simulant extant, Lucky Gunner's tests really aren't much more useful than the people who shoot water jugs, wet paper, modeling clay, specimens from the butcher's shop, or various fruits and vegetables.

The type of gel used has no impact on the velocity numbers out of known barrel lengths, so that's useful. And as somebody else pointed out, you can't necessarily compare performance in clear gel versus calibrated gel, but you can compare performance in the same clear gel. I think seeing how consistently various bullets expand is also useful.

[stinkeypete]

You fellas really need to reframe your question and hand load.

.38/.357 is .357 inch diameter in a rimmed case
9mm is .355 inch diameter in an unrimmed case

The difference is the thickness of a human hair.

Any pistol that can handle a .357 magnum load can simply duplicate a 9mm load. The only issue is the very short barrel, so I imagine that the .357 magnum should be loaded with a very fast powder compared to a longer barrel maximum load.

It’s true that with a runty short barrel one could use a load in a .357 case that would simply produce an enormous fireball without increase (maybe even decrease) in projectile velocity by using a slower powder. But that’s an incompetent load for that barrel.

It’s also true that the .357 load can exactly duplicate the 9mm load.

(I think it’s against the rules to suggest that any gun that can handle the 9mm can also duplicate that load in a .38 case as that brass has a larger volume but it’s a sort of “saami specs” argument over “what is plus p”.)

It seems like people are debating about “what factory ammunition can I buy that works well in a runty short barrel”
and
“I can buy cheap 9mm cheaper than .38 special because I don’t reload yet”
and
“I can get moon clips to solve the problem I created by using rimless cases.”
and
“How come I can’t get semi-wadcutters for my 9mm revolver?”

You boys are arguing about which factory ammo kills a block of jello the deadest.

Not many people are attacked by jello. For shooting humans, a .357 and .355 hole have the same practical effect.

[KyJim]

I purchased a Ruger LCR in 9mm because, after years of looking at ballistic test results in different media, I came to conclude that, when comparing commonly available commercial self-defense loads, the 9mm clearly outperformed .38 spl from a 2" barreled revolver. It does not perform as well as .357 magnum so I also purchased a 3" barreled .357 SW.

The biggest downside to the LCR in 9mm are the moon clips. They bend way too easily. When I carry it, however, I usually don't carry a reload anyway so the moon clips are not a concern.

[Webleymkv]

Sure, testing various calibers in the same medium gan give you a basis of comparison between calibers, but only in that particular medium. Calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin is the industry standard because the consensus is that it gives the closest approximation of living tissue that can be consistently repeatable in a laboratory environment. Water jugs, wetpack, and modeling clay can give repeatable results, but those media don't behave like living tissue when shot. Clear Ballistics gel is not the best approximation of living tissue so drawing conclusions about cartridge effectiveness from tests with it won't necessarily be accurate.

As to velocity figures, you don't need any gel at all to test that, only a chronograph. But velocity and energy are merely numbers on a page, .357 Magnum ammo is available with bullet constructions like LSWC and SJHP which aren't commonly available in 9mm. Differing bullet constructions will have an impact on how the bullet behaves when it strikes the target.

Finally, comparison of expansion characteristics is highly dependant on the test media. Almost any service caliber JHP will expand in water jugs, but that tells us little about what they do in anything else. Expansion and penetration characteristics are not consistent between Clear Ballistics gel and real 10% ordinance gel so results in one cannot be accurately extrapolated to the other.

[AK103K]

Originally Posted by Screwball

You have their test results, and can form your own opinion...

Sorry, but not seeing them being experts from that. Draw your own conclusions. But I can say, shooting a 9mm revolver (an Airweight, for my example) is not something most people do. I’ve heard people say .38+P is too much, and sometimes that 9mm is terrible. Never hear people say .357 Magnum is easy to shoot. Haven’t had any issues with my 9mm revolver. Ballistics are definitely important... being able to shoot it is likely just as important, for obvious reasons.

That being said, I’ve been up in Maine since Saturday. All that time, I’ve been carrying my 642-1, converted to 9mm. Hornady 147 grain XTP... very happy with the load, and works better than the .38+P I original used. Tip, Hornady crimps are awesome for 9mm revolvers. Shot like four cylinders to test one round, and no movement at all.

I had two 940's back when they first came out back in the mid 90's or so. One replaced the other after going back to S&W, and the third came back as a .38 on my request.

Both of the 940's "broke" within the first couple of hundred rounds or so, and in the same manner. The guns locked up tight and had to be disassembled to get the remaining loaded rounds out of them to send them back.

I never saw anything that looked broken when I took the side plate off, but the same malfunction happened with both guns. Trigger locked up and the cylinder would not open with the release.

The second gun came back with the same serial number, but the lettering was different and wasnt the same as was on the gun I sent in for repair, and looked to be laser etched.

The 940's werent "Airweights" either. They were basically a 640 in 9mm. Not sure what the issue was, as S&W would never say. I always figured that the 9mm was to hot for the J frames and they never got things figured out, and thought that was why they discontinued them soon after.

Always liked the gun (up until they didnt work), and would like to have one if they ever decided to try and get it worked out and do it again.

I always wanted a 547 as well, and always have my eye out for one. They seem to be hens teeth around here though.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by KyJim

I purchased a Ruger LCR in 9mm because, after years of looking at ballistic test results in different media, I came to conclude that, when comparing commonly available commercial self-defense loads, the 9mm clearly outperformed .38 spl from a 2" barreled revolver. It does not perform as well as .357 magnum so I also purchased a 3" barreled .357 SW.

The biggest downside to the LCR in 9mm are the moon clips. They bend way too easily. When I carry it, however, I usually don't carry a reload anyway so the moon clips are not a concern.

When carrying a 9mm revolver, a moon clip isn't necessary for the reload. I would carry it with the moon clip and 5 rounds in the gun for ease of extraction/ejection, but the spare would be 5 rounds in a speed strip that carries flat or a speedloader that's more sturdy than a moon clip.

If after 10 shots the problem isn't gone, a third reload isn't gonna help much either, but it's not like you can't remove the fired cases from the cylinder, it's just not as simple or guaranteed.

[rock185]

Maybe we could agree that in the little ~2"-3" revolvers, 9MM effectiveness lies somewhere between 38 +P and .357 Mag ? With the .357 being more powerful, but exhibiting more recoil and muzzle blast. And 9MM being more powerful than .38+P, but with less recoil and muzzle blast than .357 Magnum?

Mention was made of 180 grain .357 ammo. I chronographed some of the Buffalo Bore 180 in some 4" and 5" revolvers. Velocities ranged between 1384 to 1444 FPS, with one of the 4" guns recording the highest velocity. The 180 BB is the most powerful factory .357 ammunition I have used. I would not look forward to carrying the 180 grain BB, or similar, in anything like a little 2" concealed carry revolver.

FWIW, I once chronographed some Winchester 125 JHP .357 in a 3" revolver. It averaged 1369 FPS. For comparison, the Federal 9MM 124 HST +P in a 3" revolver averaged 1295 FPS. I can't recall getting more than 1000 FPS or so from any 38+P, even in a 4" revolver. So the 9MM definitely didn't smoke the .357 in my little informal comparison. In the little 2"-3" revolvers though, the 9MM is perhaps more than, "just a rimless 38+P", as some have claimed.

Even though I can't claim that the 9MM smokes the 357, I think I'll hang on to my wimpy little 9MM revolvers for the time being

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by rock185

Maybe we could agree that in the little ~2"-3" revolvers, 9MM effectiveness lies somewhere between 38 +P and .357 Mag ? With the .357 being more powerful, but exhibiting more recoil and muzzle blast. And 9MM being more powerful than .38+P, but with less recoil and muzzle blast than .357 Magnum?

Mention was made of 180 grain .357 ammo. I chronographed some of the Buffalo Bore 180 in some 4" and 5" revolvers. Velocities ranged between 1384 to 1444 FPS, with one of the 4" guns recording the highest velocity. The 180 BB is the most powerful factory .357 ammunition I have used. I would not look forward to carrying the 180 grain BB, or similar, in anything like a little 2" concealed carry revolver.

FWIW, I once chronographed some Winchester 125 JHP .357 in a 3" revolver. It averaged 1369 FPS. For comparison, the Federal 9MM 124 HST +P in a 3" revolver averaged 1295 FPS. I can't recall getting more than 1000 FPS or so from any 38+P, even in a 4" revolver. So the 9MM definitely didn't smoke the .357 in my little informal comparison. In the little 2"-3" revolvers though, the 9MM is perhaps more than, "just a rimless 38+P", as some have claimed.

Even though I can't claim that the 9MM smokes the 357, I think I'll hang on to my wimpy little 9MM revolvers for the time being

I'm the one that mentioned 180 grain .357, mostly because anytime the topic of 9mm revolvers comes up, someone HAS to bring up that .357 can shoot 180 grain bullets and 9mm can't so that makes .357 so much better.

It certainly is better than 9mm if you're out hunting or are open carrying said 4 inch or longer barrel revolver for bear or other large, dangerous animal while you're out camping/hiking/fishing, etc, but when we're talking 2 inch snubs for concealed carry in suburbia or the city, 9mm works just fine.

[HighValleyRanch]

I can't recall getting more than 1000 FPS or so from any 38+P, even in a 4" revolver.

I chronographed BB 158 .38 +P out of my 1 7/8 LCR att 1024 fps and out of the 3" .38 LCRX at 1076 and 1087 for 406 and 415 fp ME.

Lets see some real stats for 9mm coming out of a 2" revovler, not from a 3"semi auto. And is there a 9mm revolver that hold 6 rounds and weighs about 24 ounces?

And is there a 9mm revolver that hold 6 rounds and weighs about 24 ounces?

LOL, I researched and answered my own question....
The Korth 9mm Sky Marshal and the Charter Arms Pitbull

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

I chronographed BB 158 .38 +P out of my 1 7/8 LCR att 1024 fps and out of the 3" .38 LCRX at 1076 and 1087 for 406 and 415 fp ME.

Lets see some real stats for 9mm coming out of a 2" revovler, not from a 3"semi auto. And is there a 9mm revolver that hold 6 rounds and weighs about 24 ounces?


LOL, I researched and answered my own question....
The Korth 9mm Sky Marshal and the Charter Arms Pitbull

Paul Harrell did a good job on the 9mm LCR, some loads will eclipse low end 125 grain .357 Magnum out of a snub.

https://youtu.be/eIsy9gg1S58

As with .357, the 9mm velocity in snub revolvers depends on the ammo used. The thing is you can get significantly powerful results with 9mm for a fraction of the cost of the boutique .38/.357. When one needs 158 grain .38/.357 in a snub that they're using for self defense in civilization IDK, out in the woods in a 3 or 4 inch revolver... I can see the advantage.

[Carmady]

Lets see some real stats for 9mm coming out of a 2" revovler, not from a 3"semi auto.

How about both? LCR 9mm vs LC9, the ammo is WWB 115gr FMJ.

Five round averages are 1062 fps for the LCR, and 1072.6 fps for the LC9.
Note: he says the LC9 avg was 1066 fps, but that's a mistake (Paul is human).

The chrony stuff starts around 5:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ur9211X9aU

[Cosmodragoon]

Thank God for Paul Harrell. Not all of us have a chronograph or a good hook-up for meat target supplies.

Starting long before YouTube and smart phones, I always enjoyed shooting reactive targets. The usual suspect was tin cans or soda jugs full of tap water. For added enjoyment, friends and I would coordinate our yearly pantry cleanings and check local stores for expired goods. Enough overripe fruit and old canned goods could make for an afternoon of wonder. Aside from juvenile glee and making a smorgasbord for the woodland critters, regularly shooting stuff like that with your carry gun can give you an intuitive feel for the physics.

[MoArk Willy]

There simply isn't enough difference between a .38 sp. and a 9mm to warrant a discussion. Especially in a snub nose revolver. Believe it or not it's not always about power. Of course you can have a very powerful lightweight revolver.
Then you holster it or shove it in a pocket and hope you never have to draw it.
You won't practice with it like you should because it hurts to shoot it.
The best you can do is hope it shoots when you need it.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by MoArk Willy

There simply isn't enough difference between a .38 sp. and a 9mm to warrant a discussion. Especially in a snub nose revolver. Believe it or not it's not always about power. Of course you can have a very powerful lightweight revolver.

Then you holster it or shove it in a pocket and hope you never have to draw it.

You won't practice with it like you should because it hurts to shoot it.

The best you can do is hope it shoots when you need it.

It’s funny when people talk about things other people are doing... telling them that they are wrong.

Not for nothing, but I’m not understanding your post. First, not enough difference between .38 and 9mm... then mention “a very powerful lightweight revolver.” Have you shot either caliber in a short barrel revolver? Either one being alloy framed? I have... actually the same gun (with a conversion cylinder, which gives me a convertible in a sense).

Add in spouting out how people never practice, and just shove it in the holster and hope for the best. How many rounds do you put down range each year? The whole high and mighty thing is really tiring.

My 642-1 has a similar POI with UMC bulk 115 grain ammo and Hornady XTP 147 grain (think how weak the UMC is, they luckily match up for me). Having that, I have an extremely cost effective way to practice... which I utilize to the fullest extent. There definitely are things to watch out for with 9mm revolvers... but some things are very apparent when you actually shoot one.

Moon clips, either you love them or hate them. I personally like them, especially with the carriers I use... which if I damage them, I likely am a lot worse off than the moon clip. You can do moon clips with .38 or .357... but then you can run into clip thickness and matching them to your ammo.

If you are using a .38/.357 length cylinder/ejector rod... 9mm on moon clips will have better ejection over .38s. Why? Shorter overall length. Even loaded rounds, I don’t think I’ve ever had an issue with rounds/cases hanging up with 9mm. I have multiple times with .38s.

For recoil, it may not be a .22... but it is definitely not a 329 with full Magnums. Personally, I did not notice a huge difference in perceive recoil when comparing 9mm to .38+P... either defensive or range ammo (listed my choices for each, and there is a noticeable power difference between the two). Compare defensive .38+P to defensive 9mm... I doubt most will notice a difference.

[HighValleyRanch]

I was shooting a cylinder full of half .38 special +P BB 158 grain Keith hardcast Buffalobore outdoorsmans and half magtech 158 grain swc .357 magnum. They felt identical in recoil and loudness. This was out of my new Kimber K6 with the new wood grips. Didn't have the chrono set up in the rain.

Checking my chrono data for both out of my LCR, they are almost identical in ME.
.38 +P BB at 1024, 1027 fps, and the magtech .357 158 grain at 1001, 1024 fps.

[wild cat mccane]

Ah, but I would take Federal HST 124 or 147 +p or not over LSWC and SJHP any day of the week.

[HighValleyRanch]

BB has the same HC load with .38 +P 158 grain LSWCHP as well, identical power.
This is the same or hotter than the old FBI load.
I had some of the old super vel FBI and it didn't even come close.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

I was shooting a cylinder full of half .38 special +P BB 158 grain Keith hardcast Buffalobore outdoorsmans and half magtech 158 grain swc .357 magnum. They felt identical in recoil and loudness. This was out of my new Kimber K6 with the new wood grips. Didn't have the chrono set up in the rain.

Checking my chrono data for both out of my LCR, they are almost identical in ME.
.38 +P BB at 1024, 1027 fps, and the magtech .357 158 grain at 1001, 1024 fps.

Only issue I see with this is you're paying twice as much for the Buffalo Bore .38 vs Magtech .357 for the same ballistic results. The only difference is how accurate they shoot in various guns and I'd imagine the BB is better than Magtech, almost everything is better than Magtech.

The only thing is you can shoot that BB in cheap .38 revovlers whereas most .357 revolvers cost hundreds more.

[silvermane_1]

Originally Posted by stinkeypete

You fellas really need to reframe your question and hand load.

.38/.357 is .357 inch diameter in a rimmed case
9mm is .355 inch diameter in an unrimmed case

The difference is the thickness of a human hair.

Any pistol that can handle a .357 magnum load can simply duplicate a 9mm load. The only issue is the very short barrel, so I imagine that the .357 magnum should be loaded with a very fast powder compared to a longer barrel maximum load.

It’s true that with a runty short barrel one could use a load in a .357 case that would simply produce an enormous fireball without increase (maybe even decrease) in projectile velocity by using a slower powder. But that’s an incompetent load for that barrel.

It’s also true that the .357 load can exactly duplicate the 9mm load.

(I think it’s against the rules to suggest that any gun that can handle the 9mm can also duplicate that load in a .38 case as that brass has a larger volume but it’s a sort of “saami specs” argument over “what is plus p”.)

It seems like people are debating about “what factory ammunition can I buy that works well in a runty short barrel”
and
“I can buy cheap 9mm cheaper than .38 special because I don’t reload yet”
and
“I can get moon clips to solve the problem I created by using rimless cases.”
and
“How come I can’t get semi-wadcutters for my 9mm revolver?”

You boys are arguing about which factory ammo kills a block of jello the deadest.

Not many people are attacked by jello. For shooting humans, a .357 and .355 hole have the same practical effect.

Well the bolded part is only true outside of The Blob movies there stinkeypete.

[JimCunn]

"Why would anyone want a 9mm revolver when a .357 mag is a similar caliber, and absolutely smokes that 9mm cartridge?"

135 gr .357Mag short barrel 298 ft-lb
147gr 9mm. 292 ft-lb.

I'm not gonna worry about the 6 ft-lb difference.

It takes me about 2 minutes to change the yoke and titanium cylinder in my 637-2 Airweight J-frames between .38+P/.357Mag and 9mm. The 9mm loads and ejects faster, and is cheaper, so I use that cylinder most of the time.

[Screwball]

Wish there was a like button for JimCunn’s post.

[wild cat mccane]

And like I said the first time, there are better hollow point bullets in 9mm.

Gold Dot is the only "modern" hollow point load in 357 commercial. The Speer hollow points in BB and Underwood were replaced by Gold Dot in 9mm loads for "Premium" ammunition.

Just like Hydra/Hydro Federal is now HST in 9mm. No HST in 357. And the newest 357 load, Federal Fusion, 357 sucks.

While being right that 9mm is just better than 357, I sure love my 686.