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Old April 22, 2016, 10:18 AM   #26
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Making hits before an enemy does is what is important.
That is the essence of this discussion in my opinion. In order to be able to do this, I have to learn to be able to shoot quickly, because I don't know how much time I will get in a real-world incident. I can get on center mass very quickly. I can shoot very small groups at self-defense range. I can't usually do both at the same time. Being able to do both is important. In order to do that, both skills have to be developed and maintained. Being a great shot in a gunfight means nothing if your enemy is faster than you.
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Old April 22, 2016, 05:37 PM   #27
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Here is a type of drill I make for my students who are going to an advanced level. It is done with pistols, rifles and shotguns.
You can set up the course in half a day.

Set up a high line using poles or trees.
Hang a soft reactive target about 6" square or round on a wire cable, so it can be swung from the middle of the high line. Have someone sprint across the target area as fast as they can and time it. It's not necessary to be precise, but try to get a time within about 1 second. Now swing the target from a height so it covers the ground at about the same speed. The higher you start the swing the faster the target moves.

Have your students fire at the target as it is moving. One hit per point. No "groups" shot at all.
Try to hit it both swinging out and swinging in. Do it from different angles.
Shoot from different positions. Also different ranges. You can vary the speed of the target by starting the swing from different heights.

I have students use handguns and shotguns from 3 yards to 50 yards, and rifles from 5 yards to 300 yards.

If you get really good at this drill you'll also be able hit a lot of running rabbits when you go hunt for them. Deer on the run become pretty easy.

Someone that hits 75% or more on such a course is VERY good at the kind of shooting you will have to do in a fight.

It takes the average student about 1 year and a lot of rounds fired to get really good at this, but the time and ammo is worth it.

From the shooters prospective the targets are moving not only side to side, but also up or down depending on where in the arc you fire at them, and how close the trees or poles are together. When the poles are very close you can set the target 8 feet off the ground and have it come within 6" of the ground at the bottom of the arc. It makes for very good training.

I make a shelf to set the target on that is released by a pull cord so I can be safely away from the fired rounds.

For rifle shooting I get about 75 yards away from the pole and for handguns I am about 30 yards away. I use para-cord to pull the release to set the target in motion.
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Old April 22, 2016, 08:26 PM   #28
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Old May 10, 2016, 10:08 PM   #29
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In response to this:
"Being a great shot in a gunfight means nothing if your enemy is faster than you".

Not necessarily.
I have been missed!
That means my enemies fired before I did. They WERE faster.

Slowing down to the point that you can make a hit is necessary.

With practice that can be very fast, but never fire faster than you can make a hit.
If you miss you have recovery time to deal with and in some cases you may have just given your position away for not good reason.

If you fire fast and miss the result is the same as not firing if the enemy fires a first hit.
So "going fast" did nothing good for you at all in that case.

Slow down and aim!
Shoot as fast as you can make hits and NO faster.
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Old May 11, 2016, 06:20 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Wyosmith
.... Making hits before an enemy does is what is important.

We all love to shoot groups to test our skills and to test ammo and guns, but in the real world of hunting or fighting it never happens. Even in those times when we fire more than one shot we are shooting for effect, not for groups.

Having seen many men shot with full-auto weapons, (many of those weapons being belt fed) I can tell you even they did not have a "group" on their bodies.
Exactly! I got into a "discussion" with someone on another forum because I wasn't shooting acceptable groups in his internet-expert opinion. He even went as far as to say something like "you'd never be wasting ammo like that on my fire-team." So, I posted the attached photo (I was simply finishing off a partially-load mag at 25 yds) and asked him to pick which 7.62x51 shot that he'd want a member of his team to receive from the enemy. He never did answer my question.
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File Type: jpg 2016-03-12, 25 yds, 9 rounds, rapid fire.jpg (94.0 KB, 17 views)
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