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Old December 20, 2017, 07:30 PM   #51
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I think that is what Springfield Amory and RIA though back in the early 1900s.
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Old December 20, 2017, 07:31 PM   #52
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HD:

The Annie is off a multi use system. I confirm myself things are good, nothing against Fluxeon, but always a good thing.

We are using it for very specific and the mfg spent enough time with it to come up with a system, but I don't think it was done per JH specs.

I went with the flux concentration coil setup.

With my setup, I am no more than 1/8 out of position.

Per JH I also used one wider spacing on the concentration coil.

Lowers the heat rise and can see things better.

To confirm your quality control you need to sectioning the brass and do a microscopic exam. I can't do that so I go a bit low.

There is also brass variability.

Having to tune up equipment is nothing new for me (or a process).

Sometimes the mfg is just plain wrong. I don't argue that, as long as I can adjust it to work I am good.

With the AMP you can see anything at all. It may work just fine, but I do like to see or have feedback.
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Old December 20, 2017, 07:39 PM   #53
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What is it that makes you think you can get better or more consistent results from it?

How would we measure the difference if we were to put both to use side by side?
I have listed the process I have gone through. Its pretty thorough.

None of my stuff is spinning and its not awash in flames. I can take it to excess and prove what the upper limit is. I then shoot for below perfect. I compensate for not perfect by doing the anneal more often.

Side by side I can't prove anything, but as JH has noted, you need some special equipment to actually do so.
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Old December 20, 2017, 09:28 PM   #54
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I have listed the process I have gone through. Its pretty thorough.

None of my stuff is spinning and its not awash in flames. I can take it to excess and prove what the upper limit is. I then shoot for below perfect. I compensate for not perfect by doing the anneal more often.

Side by side I can't prove anything, but as JH has noted, you need some special equipment to actually do so.
You can’t hurt them by under annealing or even annealing correctly but if you over cook them once, annealing them more isn’t going to help.

I also understand it’s cold out and we are just occupying our time but theory, think and should, never proved a thing.

Do you know what .125” off center does with the coil you are using?
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Old December 21, 2017, 10:49 AM   #55
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Mr. Morris, you always impress!
I messed with vertical tubes (Pyrex is a wonderful thing!) But I had issues heating the head of the case above it, so I used a drop through rig, simple slider to dump annealed case & replace the void with new case for annealing.

Worked fine for stright cases, but bottle neck cases prevented using a close fitting FIXED mount Ferrite core since the head of the case hangs up on the Ferrite.
I could have fixed this by using a slider/transfer from tube to annealing position, then over to a drop, but I simply didn't build that longer slider with the stop in the middle for the annealing station.

-----

RC20,
Ferrite allows for CLOSE annealing, and an added benefit is you can shape the Ferrite to anneal more or less on specific parts of the case.
Opening it up for case mouths keeps sharp edges from champfering/deburring from over heating, while you can taper off the anneal down on the case sides.
Shaping the Ferrite also allows you to add a little more heat to the case as it gets thicker from neck to shoulder.
With the cheap costs of Ferrites, you can Experiment & fine tune to the Nth degree, getting EXACTLY what you want for any particular type/brand of case, and to PROPERLY anneal cases that have previously been worked, like cases that are champfered/deburred.

----
THEROY GUYS & FAN BOYS...
Honestly, I'm not impressed by what 'Theroy' you found on any random internet website.
When you get burned and zapped by the actual components as you actually DO SOMETHING, your 'Absloute Belief' ('Belief' being another word for 'I Don't Know Fact') turns into a bunch of questions...

Why does 800* paint melt before 750* paint?
Answer is, (and I long suspected since I worked with thermocouples & infrared)
Templaq doesn't give accurate readings on copper or when electricity is involved.
I FINALLY pried this out of an engineer once I sent them videos of 800* melting before 750*.
No recommendations from the engineer...

Why does a 'Non-Magnetic' brass case MOVE in the electrical field?
Seems brass isn't non-magnetic after all... Neither is aluminum by the way, they are just VERY LOW on the magnetic scale...

My question is,
Why DOESN'T the electrical annealers for cartridge brass have a 'Taper Down' (reduced power) at the end of the cycle?
This would allow us to get a MUCH better anneal on the case by maintaining temp over time instead of full power/heat all the time...
Seems easy to design the circuit from scratch to do this, but next to impossible for home users to modify for this.

I notice the guys that DO & BUILD speak in much less absloute terms than the 'Theroy' or Fan Boys do!
Guess we have been there, done that & know how bad things can go wrong, how 'Theroy' doesn't pan out in the real world, and why some graph or chart has never actually annealed anything...

.....

As for the 'Theroy', there is no 'Theroy' once it's put into common useage. Period.
You simply have to be satisfied with an off the shelf unit, or you Experiment to get exactly what you want, no 'Theroy' involved.

As for 'Root Words', I call BS.
Every word of latin, Greek or Roman, has evolved or been coopted for common useage...
Electrical engineers always loose their mud when someone without a degree figures out how to use something beyond what the EEs learned in school...

We aren't breaking any laws of physics here since we CAN do this stuff, and just because the electrical text books didn't cover magnetics doesn't mean it won't work.

What I have to explain to electrical types all the time is we ARE NOT working with electrical currents, it's the magnetic field doing the work. The electrical components are simply providing power for the magnetic field(s).
Then I have to point out that every common transformer has a MAGNETIC core, that MAGNETIC core (be it air, gas or solid/ferrous) SHAPES the magnetic field...
It either concentrates (focuses), diffuses (spreads out), speeds or slows the magnetic field...
And that's usually where their heads swell to the point of popping!

When you say iron or steel 'Focuses' the magnetic field, the EEs all pop a blood vessel...
Well, *IF* they had watched the changes in the magnetic field, 'Focus' is as good a word as any.
In the case of a single, solid core, like a drill bit, the field condenses around the drill.
When the power is shut down, the outlying magnetic field doesn't dissipate into space, its drawn to the 'Core', focused on that drill.
The field doesn't expand around the electrical conductor anymore, it focuses on the drill, positive & negative magnetic poles emanite from the core, not the conductor coils anymore.

I'd call this pretty good evidence the core FOCUSES the magnetic field.

Magnetism exists in absence of electrical, it's a primal force of nature.
Electrical CAN NOT exist without a magnetic field. Period.
By definition, and electrical current produced a magnetic field, so an electrical potential or current can not exist without a magnetic field.

They ALL argue this point right up until I hand them a compass and ask where the electrical components is... Open mouth & silent... The text books & degree they beat people over the head with just failed them...

As for 'Ferrous', the root word in (Greek) latin is 'ferrocerium' and means 'Ferocious,' or 'Energetic' not 'Iron'.
Ferrous has evolved into common useage to rate magnetic attraction.

Another one of those text book mistakes...
'Iron' was 'Ferocious', it (iron filings & iron oxide, rust) caught fire and burned hotter than anything known at the time.
We still use iron oxide as an incendiary in the form of thermite to burn through engine blocks & armor.
It was commonly used well into the 1900 to weld cast iron, stuff like shafts back together.

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Old December 21, 2017, 11:36 AM   #56
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RC20,
I'm glad my screw up and outright failures have helped you!
Honestly, if we don't share, this is going nowhere real fast...

Actual DOING will get a ton more accomplished than all the postulating in the world...

When I screwed up, I sometimes got lucky and someone pointed out something I didn't know or hadn't thought of, and that's why I'm annealing at the rate, and with the consistency I am today.
I'm no expert, but at least I learned how much I didn't know!

I had a contract for semi-spherical brass springs, looks like a domed washer, for the military...
Guess how that went...?
Cost me a TON of money to get an actual brass engineer in here to get me on track.
This is where I learned the metalurigic end of brass, micrographs, etc. since just the hardness tester wasn't getting the job done.
Cost $30,000 to get him in the door, so if that information helps you out, I *Feel* I'm getting more out of my money! (Not actual, but I *Feel* better... Am I turning into a woman talking about my feelings? )

I dragged my tired butt out to Missouri two weeks ago, saw ATKs annealing process for the new military ammo, all electro-magnetic induction.
The long range ammo, and the new M855A1 (5.56 penetrator, still not calling it 'Armor Piercing') is highly accurate, and it's all electromagnetic induction annealed.

The M855A1 is being used as the 'Designated Marksman' round since it's more accurate than the current DM ammo, and the cases are now hydro-formed.
I'm SURE it's got a lot to do with General Dynamics new SECRET powder, getting the same velocity out of a short barrel as a long barrel without overpressure...
They wouldn't even let me see the containers the powder comes in, so don't ask me what it's like, big secret and they are serious about keeping it!

One thing I'm trying at home, I've been using high temp resin on the ends of the Ferrite.
Hoping to stop the occasional hang up on the Ferrite as the annealer feeds through, and hoping it will more precisely locate the brass between Ferrite gap ends.
Don't know if this will help, but besides stinking when it's curing, and sticking the application popsicle stick to the work bench, it doesn't seem to have any drawbacks...
I heap it on, let it cure and file/sand to shape. No more square edges or lips for things to hang up on, and no need for fiberglass tubing or strips to keep the cases centered in the Ferrite when they try to move around.

I haven't had much time to work on my personal stuff lately, my primary customer had SEMA show out in Vegas (what a nightmare) and now they are kicking me to produce fixtures & jigs for new products.
They do pay the bills, so I'm doing it...
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Old December 21, 2017, 12:18 PM   #57
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There is no "Theroy" except for fellows named "Roy". The word is 'theory". The rest of what you said is equally creative.

You are welcome to make up your own notions of how physics work. But where you disagree with people who have formal education in these subjects, realize you are not disagreeing simply with them, personally, but with generations of scientists and experimenters who laid the foundation for what they were taught. As it relates to basic electricity and magnetism, this stuff has been demonstrated over and over in laboratory sessions by every generation of engineering and physics students who ever graduated. Your disagreement with such a host of people is a clue that you missed something. That's no surprise, as you are asking just one person, yourself, to reinvent electromagnetic physics, which would be a tall order for anybody.

It is a leap of faith to assume you've seen some effect no historical electrical experimenter has ever seen, much less to make the gratuitous assertion that they can't explain what you've seen without inventing some new physics or without depending on some sort of alchemical transmutation of brass properties to iron properties. That is not what happens. If you choose to believe it, nonetheless, that is your prerogative, but you help nobody by lecturing them about these personal beliefs as if they were fact. Misuse of terminology and misrepresentation of what is fact doesn't help anyone.

If you can't explain something like the movement of brass in a changing magnetic field, just look it up. Or go visit Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry where you can feel a permanent magnet slow down a rotating copper disc as you turn it, or watch magnetic reaction against induced magnetic fields levitate and rotate an aluminum plate. The explanations are on placards you can read right there and then and they don't involve a new physics. The machine that levitates and rotates aluminum, brass, copper or any other conductor was built by GE in the 1930's, designed by engineers who believed in and employed conventional physics theory and calculations to make it happen. No new belief system or theoretical framework was needed to make magnetic fields move aluminum or brass. It's the same electromagnetic forces at work that propel a rail gun projectile, which also contains no iron. You just have to take the time to do some research and I think you'll be amazed how many people have been there before you.
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Old December 21, 2017, 02:50 PM   #58
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Maybe we could sort of drift back to the basics as to what annealing brass does to the alloy and why its effects are desirable? Then as to using for example induction heating what features would be more desirable and features we may not care as much about. Just as an example watching the process? Do we prefer to shove our brass in a chamber and assume everything is going well or do we prefer to watch the process visually? Maybe we want a very fast heat up process and then a slower reduction of power? What exactly, step by step would we like in the actual process?

A few years ago I looked at a few home brew projects and came across this unit which I found interesting. The heart of the unit is the likely most commonly available induction heater module out there on Amazon. I did a very brief email exchange with Gina and questioned a few of the parts used and her response was pretty simple, in some cases they used what they had, including the 120 VAC fans and the timers used.

I also found this somewhat improved version of the Fluxeon Annie system.

Roll your own or buy these things are like buying a chronograph in that you are best to sit down with a real sharp pencil and a blank sheet of paper and begin writing down features ranging from must have to nice to have. Then look long and hard at what is out there and available and decide if over the counter or home brew is the best route for you.

As to the original post? That was likely answered in the first several replies to the thread.

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Old December 21, 2017, 04:02 PM   #59
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Annealing starts by taking the stress between grains out.
Not hard to follow this one, or on micrographs you can see it.
Initially, heating expands/shifts slivers & smaller (Sharp) broken pieces, when the brass cools, there is clearance/stress relief.

This is the benefit most home annealers see, stress relief keeps the brass from cracking g as soon.

The second stage is consolidation/reabsorbing of the dust/slivers from the broken grains.
The slivers/dust are in direct contact with the grain, and are readily reabsorbed.

This is where you CAN go wrong.
Since you must maintain the temp over time for this to happen, home annealer can quite easily overheat the brass and start separating base metals in the alloy.
Full 'Power' heat application is the issue, no reduced power application to maintain temp without increasing the temp...

For the consolidation to happen, it's a better idea to have a very controlled heat source and add TIME for the consolidation to happen. A reduced power ability would solve the time issue without the overheat issues.

The third part of annealing is grain GROWTH.
If the heat is too high (or too long), the grains will absorb each other.
In a micrograph, you are looking at a very specific size sample, relatively just a few microns.
Your micrograph will fill up with a single grain or two, this is a MONO-CHRYSTALINE condition, grains just too big.

When you see a 'Glow', you are well into the area this can happen, at 'Red' or 'Orange', you have ruined the brass.

Like has been printed time & time again, 'Under Annealing' (Lesser Annealing) is preferable by far to ruining the brass! Let the 'Theroy' guys chew on that all they want...

The ONLY way to determine the difference between 'Just Right' & Ruined is a micrograph, which is why I learned to do micrographs, and applied that education to cartridge cases.
A hardness tester won't tell you the difference no matter what any specific annealer manufacturer says.
I tried, it didn't work, had to learn how to mount & prepare a micrograph sample...

The 'Trick' for the home annealer is simply to keep the heat as even as possible, don't overheat the brass, learn when to stop by using some sort of temp indicator. Stay below a 'Glow' and you pretty much get good results.
For the OCD types, buy a microscope and learn to prepare samples, this is destructive testing.

-----

As for rewriting the laws of physics work, or seeing magnetic fields work...
There are cameras that show you the magnetic lay lines, you can actually directly SEE the magnetic field and what it does.
Florida State University has a wonderful magnetics research lab, and they post about everything.
I suggest you have a look at what's happened in the last 3-5 decades since you cracked a textbook (that was wrong in the first place).

Something as simple as laying a sheet of paper on the magnetic field and using magnetic powder to directly SEE the magnetic field also works.
Won't work in this case since the magnetic field flips polarity so fast, but you will get 'Fuzzy' spots where the eddies happen...
When kids got an actual education, every kid laid a sheet of paper on a magnet and sprinkled magnetic powder on that sheet to directly see the magnetic field lay lines.
Nothing 'theoretical' or need static charts/graphs and complicated textbook explanations or EE degrees for it.

If you want to make a sheet that shows you magnetic fields yourself, here is an open source site that shows you how...
http://www.instructables.com/id/Ferr...Fields-Viewer/

And as it turns out, there is an 'App' that allows smart phone CCD to directly observe magnetic lay lines in real time...

So, as for 'Rewriting Physics', it's not me, it's technology and people that didn't read the same outdated textbook...
This is a prime example of how these old wives tales get such long lives,
"You don't have *MY* degree, you don't have *MY* textbook (4 or 5 decades old), so you can't POSSABLY know what you are talking about..."

Nothing beats the education you get when you scrape, scratch, claw your way to a result.
Seems the laws of physics didn't read your textbook either!

....

There is a reason we refer to transformer coils by the MAGNETIC CORE types they are...
Stright core, E-core, solid core, laminated core, Ferrite core, etc.

I'll say that again, transformer coils are classified by their MAGNETIC CORE TYPES.
How the CORE shapes & focuses the magnetic field, rounds, flattens, expands, or contracts the MAGNETIC field.
The electrical current means nothing, these coils produce results no matter what the electrical input is...
The shaping of the magnetic field determines the OUTPUT on the other side of the transformer...
EEs choke when you prove this by using exactly the same electrical input, coil winding ratios, but change the core material or shape.

The core simply manipulates the magnetic field, giving it a focus, so the transformer is more or less effective.
The focus/shaping applies to this application as well, even though there isn't a secondary winding since this isn't an electrical conversion/manipulation application...

....

If you want to actually see the change as magnetics went from 'Theroy' to practical use,
Then have a look at a model T car coil, then a round canister coil up until the 70s, then the E-core & bobbin wound coils in modern vehicles.
Everyone that's been under a car hood should be able to relate to that!

It's always interesting to me that EEs have to have the difference between a solid magnetic core & a laminated magnetic core explained to them by a 'Layman' when things go sideways!

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Old December 21, 2017, 04:18 PM   #60
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To me proper annealing is made up of 3 parts. Time, temperature, and positioning. If any of the three is off then the process is either useless or harmful.

Making a jig for one of these home grown or Annie units would easy but first you have to know within a fraction of a inch where that heat is being concentrated. Just my opinion but in this situation theory is great but without a consistent method of applying it in practice is risky
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Old December 21, 2017, 05:03 PM   #61
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HD, you are more or less correct...
Don't underestimate the home built units, with a market this small...
Start with the small portion of the world's population that are regular shooters, a small portion of those reload, a much smaller portion of those consider annealing, and an even smaller portion of those actually try annealing, and even smaller portion educate themselves on the process to do it correctly, no matter what process they choose (induction, resistance, gas, thermal mass, etc).

And then there is that very tiny fraction that try electrical induction annealing.

And keep in mind with a small fraction actually annealing and NOT accepting the results from common use/practice (usually wrong),
Then the even smaller portion that will educate themselves enough to build their own machine...

Then, and ONLY then, they build machines for sale.
Figuring they have invested a ton of time & money in the education, they introduce a product to a tiny fractional market...

Doesn't matter if it's electrical, gas, load (hot load/heat transfer, lead pots, heated dies, etc).
Keep in mind not even the big reloading equipment manufacturers offer an annealing machine (RCBS, Hornady, Lee etc), you are dealing with VERY small market, not even they are interested...

Every currently available machine is a really small company making them, a version they cooked up at home. Again doesn't matter how it's powered.

So taking offense at home built machines falls apart pretty quickly when you break it down.
No matter what you buy it's just a slicked up version of a home built machine since General Dynamics (or like company) isn't going to look at a market that isn't a billion dollars in sales a year...

I don't discount anything unless I've personally beat it with a stick in the shop and rolled the rock round instead of just turning every rock over.
It's not discounted until I've picked it apart...

Just like your favorite machine,
All magnetic induction machines use the same principle (electro-magnetic induction).
All magnetic induction machines are adjustable, simply by timing exposure to the magnetic field, or by initial power supply input (Volts/Amps).

All machines have some sort of movement limiting/spacing.
Either by holding the brass & coil/Ferrite fairly precisely.
Depending on power output, absloute precise spacing often won't matter as much,and as can be easily proven, lower power provides a more desirable anneal.

You either want a machine that is 'Plug & Play' and you don't want to mess with building or experimenting, which is entirely a personal choice.
Or you want more precise results which require experimentation and fiddling with vairables.

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Old December 21, 2017, 06:02 PM   #62
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Unclenick:

The thing about theory is well and good, but I will remind you that the electrical theory was in fact derived from experiment and not someone who discovered the deep truths ala Einstein and E+MC2 by thought.

Having lived with a mathematics major for a while, my conclusion is that upper math is more philosophical in a twisted way than science.

Real world on the ground is that any engineer be it electrical or otherwise, runs the data (computer these days) does a prototype and then adjusts the circuits as needed because if they are new, they don't comes out as intended.

Sure the reason is in there, but as I often have told management, do you want me to try to find out why this worked in the first place or do you want me to fix it so it not only works now, but anyone following behind me can understand how it works?

Maybe the best one was a current sensing circuit. As you take inputs and have to reduce the current down to something an electronic circuit can work with, there is a significantly complex conversion process and then an output to react to a high current level and machine shutdown.

Said circuit would shut down the machine on over current and there was no occur current there.

The short answer was once their lab saw it (and these folks made the BEST UPS in the world at the time) was to adjust the circuit tolerances so it did not occur.

5 resistors of 1% and a transistor replacement (different ops values) and no more issue.

This same circuit was not even running at 10% load, so it was a huge bust.

As good as those people were, they missed that.

So much for absolute theory, reality reared its ugly head and fortunately they were sharp cookies who knew the ins and outs and that theory falls to reality often, they could test it and see where their theory was going off track and compensate the circuit for it. Theory makes no provisions for variations, programs can but they to can fail to get it all captures. It happened in 1 out of 100 machines.
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Old December 21, 2017, 06:23 PM   #63
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Unclenick: I am going to have to concede (I was wrong) on the current vs voltage end.

Having worked with 3 phase power and motors, we double the voltage and half the current but that is a function of motor windings and how they are wired in. Higher voltage is a series start (usually) and lower voltage is a parallels Star.

Too long since I worked DC circuits and the combination.
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Old December 21, 2017, 07:08 PM   #64
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Jeephammer you forgot one thing - frequency. From what little I have read on induction heating frequency is also a factor. Although that would be a minor factor affecting the efficiency from what little I know. I have a minimal knoledge of this theory but I do know as couple of things and those are :

If a Annie or DIY kit arrived on my doorstep tomorrow the first thing I would do is install a flux concentration coil on it to focus the heat into a small as region as possible.

Secondly I would do some experiments to determine where that energy is being focused that might include heating a bolt in a darkened room to see which area begins to glow, or perhaps painting a stripe of Templaq vertically on the case and observe where it melts first. Every smart phone is capable of doing a video and there are tons of freeware video editing programs out there to be able to go through a video second by second

Next I would build a jig to position the case exactly where I wanted it into the coil to focus the energyon the correct spot on the case in a every time.

The next step would be to determine the time to heat the case to the proper temp. From the threads here that might be able to be accomplished with powdered templaq and alcohol. Way I see that is if the 750F liquid has metals in it to prevent proper temp indications in a magnetic field what metals are in the stick version. No one I know has access to a $30K thermal camera to verify that it works or does not

then and only then would I trust it to do the job intended in a safe manner, just my two cents worth
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Old December 21, 2017, 10:37 PM   #65
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RC20,

You and Jeephammer both seem to have got the idea I am a theoretician. I've been in the trenches, climbed radio towers, done repair work on circuitry at all power levels, worked with high and low voltages, and designed instrumentation and power circuitry, including ferrite toroids, C-cores and E-cores for switching regulator coils, and even good old silicone steel E-core laminations to wind my own special-purpose power transformers. I started electronics as a hobby in high school, teaching myself basic transistor circuit design from books and working in a TV repair shop and repairing musical instrument amplifiers in the cellar of a music store. I was a licensed radio station engineer halfway through College and left school to work as a technician in a well-known instrumentation manufacturing company where I worked up to designing the instrumentation that QC'd the instrumentation products, and then went back to school and finished. That's where I got the rest of the story. Closure, if you will, to any remaining questions I had. That's why it means something to me. It explained all I saw and made prediction of what circuits will do much more certain. Once you've seen a lot of practical application, the value of the theory that explains it means a lot more to you.

Theories always follow observation to explain what was observed. The observation may be of experimental results or of natural phenomenon when an experiment cannot be performed (astronomical events, volcanoes erupting, etc.). When a theory is first put forward additional observers propose alternate theories and everyone continues to observe and theorize until, one by one, observational details eliminate all but the one remaining theory that everyone agrees consistently describes what may be observed to happen and predicts experimental outcomes correctly.

That process is how consensus is arrived at in science: it is when alternate theories cease to be argued by anybody. That is not to say nobody will ever, ever have new ideas, but as time passes without that happening, it becomes increasingly unlikely.

Among those basics that remain unchallenged in the world of E&M are Ohm's Law, Kirchhoff's Law and Maxwell's equations. Making up new theories like making up new definitions for terms is not going to go be unchallenged because all that arguing has already been done. Especially not when you can turn to the textbooks or the dictionary and just look them up.

If you have a thing that doesn't do a job or that you want to scale to a different size or that you want to improve in some manner, a prediction of what is needed based on theory is very useful. It saves immense amounts of time and expense from selecting inappropriate parts or inappropriate equipment. But of course, you still have to prototype the results to allow for the fact there are tolerances and manufacturing variables and sometimes, as I've experienced, just flat out bad documentation published about a component. That doesn't mean the theory is wrong, just that human beings fail to achieve perfection. No surprise there.
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Old December 22, 2017, 01:13 AM   #66
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Why does a 'Non-Magnetic' brass case MOVE in the electrical field?
Seems brass isn't non-magnetic after all... Neither is aluminum by the way, they are just VERY LOW on the magnetic scale...
Since any conductor can be moved by a magnetic or electrical field under the proper circumstances, by that logic, anything that can conduct electricity is magnetic. That's not true.

However, it is true that any conductor can be temporarily made into an electromagnet via the proper application of current flow--and that current flow doesn't have to be from a connected voltage source, it can also be induced by a changing magnetic or electrical field.

When you put a conductor (such as brass) into a changing magnetic/electrical field, current flow is induced in the conductor--you know that already because that's what this thread is about--that's what makes induction heating possible. You also know that any current flow through a conductor creates a electrical field and that any electrical field has an associated magnetic field because that's how motors work. The magnetic field generated by the induced current flow interacts with the original magnetic field and can cause movement of the conductor.

I started out as a technician. Making things work and repairing them was interesting, but I always wanted to know the explanations that went with the rules of thumb and the things I learned by experience.
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Old December 22, 2017, 06:48 AM   #67
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Quotes like the one above concerning magnetic materials and this one about electrical conductors

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
ANY electrical conductor MUST be slightly ferrous, even if it's 'Common' to call it 'Non-Magnetic'
are completely false. Unfortunately such blatantly false statements can ruin the credibility of the individual even if other things they say are true.

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Old December 22, 2017, 09:31 AM   #68
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If a Annie or DIY kit arrived on my doorstep tomorrow the first thing I would do is install a flux concentration coil on it to focus the heat into a small as region as possible.
One like this would do what you want, the bottom looks like the top and they join at a point in the center.

Wouldn’t be my choice for annealing a bottle neck case though.

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Old December 22, 2017, 11:47 AM   #69
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…And I notice those pancake coils seem to be a popular induction heating configuration for limiting spread of the field along the coil axis. They were originally one of Nikola Tesla's ideas and feature in both some Tesla and Oudin coil variants. There is a calculator and formula at this site. The form or the formula is similar to the other single-layer cylindrical coil approximating formula I gave, and like that one is good for about 1%-2% accuracy up to about 30 Mhz.
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Old December 22, 2017, 12:42 PM   #70
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One like this would do what you want, the bottom looks like the top and they join at a point in the center.

Wouldn’t be my choice for annealing a bottle neck case though.
Fluxeon sells a optional accesory

http://fluxeon.com/flux/products.php?

seriously though, every demonstration of generic and home made induction heater coils I can find on youtube looks like they are very unfocused.

When I was modifying my rig I tried a couple of different torches. One was a swirl type torch, and the heat was unfocused and overheated the case. Then I tried a small butane torch, it was too small and concentrated the heat into too narrow an area. It resulted in a small band of the case getting overheated before the neck and shoulder got up to proper temperature. For a torch powered unit I found the generic plumbers torch worked the best. When I focus the inner pencil point of the flame just ahead of junction of the neck and shoulder I get a nice anneal without overheating the neck but still heats the shoulder up to temp. My cases come out looking like they are fresh out of the Lapua box

Again just my opinion but if one really wants to use induction unit for annealing they should drop the money for a AMP but if they just want a easy and consistent anneal a Giraud or Annealeez torch unit will do the job nicely
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Old December 22, 2017, 01:33 PM   #71
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HD:

I was disappointed that you seemed not to have read what I wrote.

The steps I took with the Annie were the ones you listed.

I don't claim knowledge but by feel the concentrator coil look the most usable for me (and I got to use my brothers and confirm it)

As I found the Templiaq is not to be trusted, I did a full test approach.

I have repeatedly streesed my annealing is not to the max but somewhere below that.

I did find the upper limits with glowing cases (sacrificial ones) in the dark to get an idea what too far was.

On each test I also noted positioning and its affects. As long as the vertical was consistent and I can keep that to 1/16 or better, the horizontal does not seem to be a changing factor but that is kept close as well, for sure under 1/8.

As discussed by JH, the concentrating bars make a difference and I opened those up to do two things (and contrary to Fluxion)

1. Slow the process down which gives more latitude
2. Make it less position critical (keeping in mind the jig setup keeps it within 1/8, maybe closer but at least that.

I ran tests with the 750 and 800 and noted that despite the discrepancy, neither one pushed into a glow.

I took the Crayon and applied it and confirmed that upper limit.

I then backed off a few more tenths of a second from what already was below the critical point.,

I continue to keep an eye on the process looking for flaws to show up, not success but looking for a failure indication.

I don't claim I can prove it, but all evidence I put into the quality control I could says its under annealing. Closer to 700 at a guess.

While its a work in progress I have had no split cases so there is another indicator the process is working.

As brass is a considerable investment for me (and you don't get range pickup of 7.5 Swiss) that also looks to be ROI on the equipment and time invested I in the process.


Quote:
If a Annie or DIY kit arrived on my doorstep tomorrow the first thing I would do is install a flux concentration coil on it to focus the heat into a small as region as possible.

Secondly I would do some experiments to determine where that energy is being focused that might include heating a bolt in a darkened room to see which area begins to glow, or perhaps painting a stripe of Templaq vertically on the case and observe where it melts first. Every smart phone is capable of doing a video and there are tons of freeware video editing programs out there to be able to go through a video second by second

Next I would build a jig to position the case exactly where I wanted it into the coil to focus the energyon the correct spot on the case in a every time.

The next step would be to determine the time to heat the case to the proper temp. From the threads here that might be able to be accomplished with powdered templaq and alcohol. Way I see that is if the 750F liquid has metals in it to prevent proper temp indications in a magnetic field what metals are in the stick version. No one I know has access to a $30K thermal camera to verify that it works or does not

then and only then would I trust it to do the job intended in a safe manner, just my two cents worth
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Old December 22, 2017, 01:58 PM   #72
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Apologies RC, I guess I just skim read your previous posts. As long you are comfortable with your cases that is all that matters.
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Old December 22, 2017, 04:51 PM   #73
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Apologies accepted, I try to read the in depth responses.

And no, as long as I am satisfied is meaningless, if I am satisfied and the process passes a rigorous scrub be it mine, others and more often a combo of input from others, to me that is what is important.

Also important is to pass on what you have found assuming it is valid (the paint on Templiaq issue)

The good news it the consequence of a poor anneal are not dire for being wrong.

Worst case the mouths are too soft, it would be interesting to be able to shoot well enough to see just how much that affects accuracy. I don't see that happening for me.

I am sorry that there is not more testing done in all areas.

Do all the steps to the max and vary just a single factor (neck thickness, neck tensions, anneal etc) and find out just how much it affects the end result.

Obliviously then you could start with the easiest done and work your way down.

If you don't anneal well enough (and or often enough) then you wind up with split necks. You loose brass but that's not fatal, just annoying (and you can up the anneal and maybe salvage the rest.

I may not be right (I clearly was wrong on the volts/amps issue) but its not because I don't work at it.

And always to work to passing on best tested information as opposed to opinions.

ps: I really dislike the inability of many not to sort out opinions.

Seatbelts usage is one. I know of a case or two that seat belts killed a person. Held in and could not release.

In the vast majority of incidents seat belts save lives.

So one person opinion that they don't is simply wrong.

Is a 270 better than a 30-06? That's truly an opinion. I have my preference but its only that, both are fine capable cartridges a sis 308 etc.

Sometimes I do get surprised, until I started reading about 6.5 mm it was not high on my list, acutely pretty poor opinion.

The more I read about it and its documented capability of taking large animals like Moose, its, hmm, boy did I miss that boat.
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Old December 22, 2017, 09:54 PM   #74
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Well Bryan Litz tested annealing in his book Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Vol 2 and has declared it meaningless as far as accuracy. I have yet to purchase the book so I have no idea exactly how he tested it. However I am sure that Litz being who he is did a pretty detailed test. I have $300 bucks invested in the Anealeeze and it is really convenient to use so I don't plan on stopping annealing after each firing. My primer pockets get sloppy before the necks ever get brittle and that includes all those years when I was using the old socket and drill routine every fifth loading so I must be doing something right. Also a couple of years back PRB did a survey on how the top 100 precision rifler shooters reload and 65% anneal so I am in good company I guess.
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Old December 22, 2017, 10:14 PM   #75
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If its working then that is good as well.

The big deal these days is neck tension and supposedly annealing will be better,

Flip to that is that while it gets harder to insert a bullet the longer outside being annealed, its also pretty consistent.

Bart B take for his shooting was that factory loads (granted good ones) worked better than reloading.

I suspect I will never get to the point I can see the difference, some days I can't shoot worth a hoot.
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