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Old May 14, 2019, 06:28 PM   #1
MarkA
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M1 Garand Opportunity.. which one?

Apologies but my information on the rifles is limited. A guy is selling two Garrands; one is gauged at Muzzle 1, Throat 4, while the other is gauged at Muzzle 2, Throat 3.

They both cosmetically appear to be about the same. I tend to believe that the Throat 3 rifle stands a chance at being the better rifle, since the bullet has a better chance of concentricity during the trip down the barrel. I'm kinda torn, and don't have the opportunity to shoot either prior to purchase. I don't "really" care too much about appearance; I just want a functional piece of history in the safe, and my M1A needs a buddy.

What are TFL's thoughts?

Thanks in advance,
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Old May 14, 2019, 06:41 PM   #2
dahermit
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If you could find a Garand with only one "r", it would be better.
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When you seek advice it is spelled with a "c". In case anyone really wanted to know, and even if you didn't.
Lookup "run" in the dictionary...you will find that it is not a synonym for "function", "shoot", or "use". If you live in the U.S.A, learn to speak English.
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Old May 14, 2019, 07:10 PM   #3
Chris_B
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Oh boy.

Mark, if you don't care about looks and you already have more info than we do about your personal taste, how are we supposed to know better than you do?

All I can do is ask questions so you can consider the answers:

Do you want a particular manufacturer of M1 rifle?
Are you looking for a certain era such as WWII production, late manufacture, etc?
Do you care about things like which manufacturer made say the front sight, as there's a difference?
Do they both lock up in the stocks well?
Do they have aftermarket stocks, or USGI?
If USGI stock(s), are cartouches present?
Are you willing to spend some time learning about the purchase or are you just in a rush to get one?
Can the seller wait a couple weeks while you examine some reference material so you may make your best choice?
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Old May 14, 2019, 07:19 PM   #4
Bart B.
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If best accuracy potential is the objective, I would go with the one throat gaged at 3, its had about 3000 rounds through its barrel

The several USN team Garand barrels I wore out were rebarreled when gauged 5 at the throat. their muzzles gaged 4 or more. And no copper wash the last 3/4" of the muzzle proof cleaning rods rubbing there lapped away the metal. Yet all still tested about 7" at 600 yards with new handloaded cases and commercial match bullets; new barrels tested 4 to 5 inches.

Another important dimension is groove diameter. If you can lead slug the bores, mic the slugs then go with the smallesr one. The arsenal broach rifled barrel's would gauge about .3085" groove with a new broach then after rifling several barrels, the last few gaged about .3078". These tight barrels shot commercial bullets micing .3082" or thereabouts the most accurate. The military shops rebuilding match Garands air gauged all the barrels from the arsenal then used the tight ones in that range for top ranked team members. Most of the new barrels would shoot military match ammo with .3086" FMJBT 173 gr. match bullets into about 13" at 600.
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Old May 15, 2019, 05:20 AM   #5
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You might also read up on how to spot a rewelded receiver if you haven't already.
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I'm going to use the words "clip" and "Long Colt" every chance I get. It grinds my gears to see new members attacked when we all know dang good and well what's being refered to.
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Old May 15, 2019, 06:17 AM   #6
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You might also want to ask what makes of M1s these are? Are both the same: Springfield Armory, Winchester, IHC, or HRA?

Also, do these M1s have any import markings? Where did the present owner purchase them? Gun show or gun shop? Or did he buy them directly from the DCM/CMP? If so, ask to see the DCM/CMP paperwork.

Yep, more homework is indicated.
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Old May 15, 2019, 08:13 PM   #7
veprdude
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Manufacturer, year built and what original parts all play into value. I have a write-up on this sub-forum describing Reweld Garands and what to look for.

Generally speaking, the TE tells more about the round count and the MW about how it was cleaned. Those 2 numbers tell important information, but not the whole story. For instance a bad crown on a low MW might be less accurate than a higher number MW with a uniformly worn crown.

More information is indeed needed, but it might come down to which one you like better or which is more affordable if there's a price difference.
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Old May 16, 2019, 12:24 PM   #8
MarkA
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Thx Fellas
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Old May 16, 2019, 01:31 PM   #9
T. O'Heir
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"...my M1A needs a buddy..." It'll need a new home when you buy the M1. There's something about an M1 Rifle that no other rifle has. I think it's the perfect balance and not just because JC was born in Canada.
Oh and I have a semi'd Winchester M-14 with the issue fiberglass stock and an M1. Prefer to shoot the M1, but carry the M-14.
The appearance can be fixed without much fuss.
CMP grades go primarily according to the stock and its condition. A Rack grade's barrel will be "...more than “3” on muzzle gauge. The Throat Erosion will gauge more than “5”."
A Field grade's barrel will be more than “3” on muzzle gauge. The Throat Erosion will gauge less than 5 – well within US Army standards.
A Service grade, what I think those two are depending on the stock, will gauge "3 or less" and the throat erosion will gauge less than 5.
So they're basically the same. Shooters. Like Bart says, there's more to it than those numbers. I'd want to know who did the gauging too.
Field or Rack Grades can have nicks on the muzzle crown that'd require fixing too.
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Old May 16, 2019, 02:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
It'll need a new home when you buy the M1. There's something about an M1 Rifle that no other rifle has.
I concur.

There is no comparison between an M1A and an M1 Garand.

One is a commercial product with a cast receiver and other compromises to hit a price point, and the other is a legendary piece of history that also happens to be the the most fun and satisfying centerfire rifle one is likely to encounter.

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG PINGGGGG!!!
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Old May 16, 2019, 06:48 PM   #11
4V50 Gary
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Throat is more important to me. Muzzles can be crowned. Can't fix a worn throat (yeah, it can be sleeved).
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Old May 16, 2019, 07:45 PM   #12
Red Devil
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Coupla things here, Mark.

The U.S. Army used a specific Ten(10) point scale correlating Throat Diameter, Erosion, and Service Life:

Spelled out in the U.S. Army Technical Manual TM 9-1275.
SERVICEABILITY CHART - RIFLES, U. S., CAL. .30, M1, M1C, & M1D

IN THE HANDS OF TROOPS
Max. 0.310" (gauge 10)

TO ACCOMPANY TROOPS OVERSEAS
Max. 0.306" (gauge 6)

TO BE PLACED IN STORAGE FOR REISSUE
Max. 0.305" (gauge 5)


From Scott Duff:

A Comment on Throat Erosion from Scott Duff

It has come to my attention from discussions with many M1 Garand owners that a misunderstanding of an acceptable versus an unacceptable Throat Erosion (TE) reading exists. A note of clarification is in order. When discussing serviceability specifications of U.S. Martial Arms, it is best to review the primary source, the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps documents from when the M1 rifle was the issue rifle to front-line troops. I have in my files TB ORD 587 dated 20 December 1954 entitled Field Inspection and Serviceability Standards for Small Arms Material. A chart on page four outlines the serviceability specifications for the M1, M1C, and M1D rifles “To Accompany Troops Overseas.” The specification given for “Breech Bore Rejection” is “Over 0.306” or a TE reading of 6 on a gage. No specification is given for muzzle wear. If combat troops in the 1950s were issued rifles with a TE of 6 or under, then the same is good enough for a rifle in my collection. I would not go to the John C. Garand Match at Camp Perry with a rifle with a TE of 6, but for general collecting, in my opinion, it matters little.

This is also a good time to note that based upon my observations the TE of a new production SA barrel during World War II ran anywhere from approximately 1.0 to 3.5. Pre World War II SA barrels were usually in the 0.0 to 1.0 range. Winchester barrels were generally in the -1.0 to 2.0 range, but I have seen new WRA barrels with higher and lower readings. An expanded version of this including information on post WII barrels will be published in a future issue of the Garand Collectors Association Journal (GCA).


Given: Bore Dia. = 30 Caliber = 0.300"
1. Throat Erosion - generally occurs at a rate of 0.001" (or one gauge number) for every 2,000 rounds fired.
2. Muzzle Erosion - generally occurs at 1/3 the rate of Throat Erosion.
(GCA empirical test data)

Given: A new, post-war barrel with average gauge readings of ME=0.0/TE=1.0
Given: Maximum barrel service life is TE=10.0 (0.310")

The Bbl. with a ME=1.0/TE=4.0 should have:
~ 6,000 rounds through it. [(TE=4.0-1.0=3.0) X 2,000].
and a Muzzle Erosion of (3.0)/3 = 1.0, or simply ME=1

~ 12,000 rounds of service life left. (10.0-4.0) X 2000.
although accuracy may start falling off in ~ 8,000 rounds (TE=4.0+4.0=8.0 or 0.308")




Red

Last edited by Red Devil; May 16, 2019 at 07:52 PM.
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Old May 18, 2019, 03:57 PM   #13
MarkA
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Following up:

I did go ahead and buy the Muzzle-2 Throat-3 rifle. The receiver is a Springfield Armory; serial SA-3767678. May 1945? There's barely any finish left on it, but it's smooth. Sights are functional. There have been some parts replaced; trigger, mag follower, operating rod, etc. The stock is walnut, stamped RA(*)P, it according to the google-foo, it was rebuilt in New Jersey at some point. Couldn't make out the little symbol between the RA and the P. The barrel is dated 4/47.

The receiver is not a re-weld; and if it is, it's a REALLY good one. Machining marks are consistent throughout the op rod channel and a few other places. Drawing number for the receiver is a revision 35; July 44 - October 45 which checks out against the serial number. After doing some reading and checking info on USRifleCAL30M1.com, I went out and stripped it all the way down. Also took the opportunity to take some paint off of the handguard that looked terrible. Barrel looks great; ran a cheap bore scope down it. The windage knob was locked; back the screw out a half-turn and it freed right up.

Pretty neat piece of history in hand. It's gonna see the range tomorrow. Got a couple hundred rounds of some Prvi Partizan 150gr and 10 en bloc in the mail today.

EDIT: threw some more info at the post. Excited.
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Last edited by MarkA; May 18, 2019 at 06:27 PM.
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Old May 20, 2019, 07:25 AM   #14
P5 Guy
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Quote:
take some paint off of the handguard
That wasn't red paint was it?
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Old May 20, 2019, 07:43 AM   #15
MarkA
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Quote:
That wasn't red paint was it?
No; just some number scribbled on the top in white. Looked like an inventory number but it was barely legible. Took it out to the range yesterday; she didn't disappoint!
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Old May 22, 2019, 01:19 AM   #16
veprdude
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Never remove red paint from an M1 without research. Lol.
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Old May 22, 2019, 03:34 PM   #17
P5 Guy
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A red band was painted on lend/lease guns to GB.
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